Been Playing Civ too Long

[meatwad4289]

thats what I thought I wasn't sure if I remembered correctly, but I guess you confirm it aswell.

What I wish is when We make a democratic civ.. we'd have votes to change the leader. Some leaders do great for starting and others are great once you get going, so it be nice to have a huge start up, and before you get screwed over with maintaining it, have an election change to the other leader head. granted I think to balance it out, you'd have to make it random event.

Then you can have We do not like your new president -4, or YOU'RE SO MUCH BETTER THAN THE LAST GUY +5

 

[Spearthrower]

No state-sanctioned crime took place there, only the crimes of a poorly-selected guard.
Not a crime at all. Also, the United States government has almost no control over its television content, since they're all private businesses.

They're both against the Geneva Convention... let's not try to escape that single fact - when a state employed guard commits a crime, it is a crime of the state.... when any television show aired in a country breaks the law, the state is responsible to do something about it (which it didnt - quite the opposite in fact as the whitehouse showed the pictures themselves). You can try to shift blame around till the cows come home, but the world knows well that you have broken the Geneva Convention many times and what do you think the message sent by that it?? Well - if they can do it, so can we.... thanks for tearing the moral fabric of modern international politics.

wow.. childish. If you're going to at least debate with the adults, make it sound like it.

This coming from the guy whose entire debate surrounded the mature concept of "if you dont agree with me you're an ass"?? You said you're a redneck, and it shows.

Listen up France: the majority of us in the US who re-elected George Bush DO NOT CARE WHAT YOU THINK OR WHETHER YOU LIKE US AND YOU HAVE NOT THE COURAGE TO DO ANYTHING ABOUT IT. That is why you have become a third rate, silly little power. But there are signs of a change. Did not a right winger just get elected President of France by a large margin. Perhaps you whiners are not the majority even in your own country.

Right, like an entire nation with a history going back thousands of years is going to listen to one raving jingoist proffer his opinion as fact. The whole notion of "we dont care what you think" is hilarious because you need the world just as much as it needs you. Stop acting like children, multilateralism IS the only way forward into the modern age instead of acting like barbaric imperialists. France is no "3rd rate silly little power" - if you had any knowledge of that little place outside of your country otherwise known as "the world" you'd know that France is still a major power both militarily and, more importantly, diplomatically. Fortunately you and the Meat guy ARE an ever increasing minority in your country and I hope to hell your next government increases funding to education to cut back on the ignorant nonces that make such ridiculous statements as you 2 have.

 

[dutchking]

Said I wouldn't come back, but couldn't resist...I won't be involved in quote wars anymore and just making side comments here and there:

wow.. childish. If you're going to at least debate with the adults, make it sound like it.

This coming from the guy whose entire debate surrounded the mature concept of "if you dont agree with me you're an ass"?? You said you're a redneck, and it shows.

Throw those spears!

 

[Spearthrower]

to any of the rest of the ppl still reading this thread from around the world. this is exactly the kind of people we have to deal with in this country, as soon as anyone wants to start dealing with the reality of this imperialistic war, we get this "DON'T YOU DARE SAY" this or that about our "brave" american troops. bill maher said that best. silence the matter with fear. i think we saw what our brave troops are capable of at abu ghraib.

my point if meatwad chose to actually read what i said is that talking about the war has nothing to do with respecting or disrespecting the troops. but that as soon as we want to start discussing the war in real unimagined terms, the john wayne gung ho america lovers (read: irrational) throw up this thick smokescreen about how we are to speak b/c of how it affects the the troops. meatwad proved my point much better than i did myself.

bush has clearly disrespected the troops and their families much more than i ever could. it starts with our public school system, all this crap about how great america is and how great its founding was blah blah blah etc etc. america was founded on genocide, we don't find that out until much later. but even then we never come to any sort of atonement, because again the america is great blah that gets so damned old. america could be great if we stepped out of this fantasy world. but that won't happen anytime soon, not until we get smacked around like europe did. we're only a few steps away from fascism, and it is guys like meatwad who are leading the way.

(added some paragraphs!! )


Well done that man for having a mind capable of stripping away the layers of rampant nationalism inherent in your social fabric. You should definitely be applauded for fostering such incisive thought in such a hostile environment.

I've lived in a lot of countries in my life and I have seen this same kind of thing apparent in many places - the only difference being that they were ALL third world countries where a large number of people lived in abject poverty. There, the nationalism helps them to feel motivated about their country - stops them rising up - keeps them working hard.

Even here in Thailand, the majority of Thais see their country as a unique and great place which has never been conquered and which much of the world would love to be like (every day at 8am and 6pm, people all over the country stand for the national anthem - people salute coloured bits of cloth ) It's just a glaring lack of education.... one which America sadly shares given it's status of military preeminence - but keeping the populace in fear-filled, jingoist blindness is actually fairly effective...... it's almost a miracle that some people such as yourself have broken free...... you should head over to Europe - people respect individual thought there.

The fantasy has been drilled in for too long for people to drop it overnight, but you are right, it is going to take some serious happenings to wake people up. As shocking and disgusting as it may be, 9/11 (oops) could have been such a call if a jingoist, imperialist fascist hadn't twisted and abused the situation to attain a carte blanche for his and his clique's sordid goals.

The last few years has created an immense polarisation in the world thanks to propaganda and fear-spreading. Now ALL nations can justify their inhumane treatment of minorities as "countering terrorism" - why not? If the big fish can break international laws, who's to bind the little ones?

This polarisation is going to be the lead up to the next world war, and history will remember clearly who sowed the seeds.... I just hope all these rabid nationalists above are ready to fight for the harvest their government has sowed, or will they also use the draft dodge as modelled by their heroes?

 

[meatwad4289]

This coming from the guy whose entire debate surrounded the mature concept of "if you dont agree with me you're an ass"?? You said you're a redneck, and it shows.

I didn't say "if you dont agree with me you're and ass." i said if you disrepect someone for doing their job your an ass, or if you insult the mentally impaired your an ass. I did say you can disagree with me, the war, the media, the government, whatever, just dont disrepect people. I didn't say I was a redneck, I may have stated it sarcastically if i did. and you don't know what a redneck really is. I already explained what a redneck really is and not the stereotypes given by the ignorant.




Also reading ur last post.. Americans love 7-11. To not love 7-11 means you either hate frozen drinks or your not American.

I believe you're refering to 9-11, idk if Thailand is on a different Calendar or not, I know some parts of the world are. Regardless.. I didn't find anything at all interesting in your post. I mean. rambling the same BS poitns over n over as others have done. DOESN'T SUPPORT YOU.

 

[Spearthrower]

you're right.... typo from it being too early here.... 9/11 it is!


Of course nothing interests you in it, people don't like to listen when respectable people find their actions sordid. Whatever, they most certainly are not "BS" just because it doesnt tally with your version of reality.

 

[crocodiledundee]

.

Listen up France: the majority of us in the US who re-elected George Bush DO NOT CARE WHAT YOU THINK OR WHETHER YOU LIKE US AND YOU HAVE NOT THE COURAGE TO DO ANYTHING ABOUT IT. That is why you have become a third rate, silly little power. But there are signs of a change. Did not a right winger just get elected President of France by a large margin. Perhaps you whiners are not the majority even in your own country.

This is truly ridiculous. It's like you're expressing right-wing solidarity with President Sarkozy and are actually looking forward to the prospect of having a country that hates you and "has the courage to do something about it."

Nuclear weapons are very, very widespread lad. If the rest of the world develops the same disrespect for people outside their borders that you have, everything will be over not too far from now.

 

[crocodiledundee]

No state-sanctioned crime took place there, only the crimes of a poorly-selected guard.

Guantanamo is a crime. The best natural harbour anywhere in Cuba has been annexed by the US for a century. On what standard is that possibly justifiable? Only one actually: America uber alles. Or, as someone else said on this thread, we don't care what anyone else thinks.

For the record, the US has committed more state-sanctioned crime than ANY OTHER NATION. For starters, the proven record of US terrorism in Central America that was condemned by the World Court. The US has assassinated world leaders across the world for more than 60 years. Its voting record at the United Nations shows it as an international pariah.

And you're trying to say that America wouldn't break international law?!? Wake up!

 

[crocodiledundee]

Actually, the majority of civilians in Iraq have been killed by insurgents. Bombs are so acurate that we can put one through a specific window from an F-16 20,000 feet in the air. Just thought I'd point that out.

Don't kid yourself. 7% of the bombs used in Gulf War I were the so-called smart bombs you see on the TV news. Around a third were this time around.

 

[meatwad4289]

Well if you insist on me caring then....

(added some paragraphs!! )


Well done that man for having a mind capable of stripping away the layers of rampant nationalism inherent in your social fabric. You should definitely be applauded for fostering such incisive thought in such a hostile environment.

WTH? no. Read the posts next time. His and others.

I've lived in a lot of countries in my life and I have seen this same kind of thing apparent in many places - the only difference being that they were ALL third world countries where a large number of people lived in abject poverty. There, the nationalism helps them to feel motivated about their country - stops them rising up - keeps them working hard.

ok. I don't understand what 3rd world countries nationalism has to do with the United States for this particular topic. Perhaps you could expand and shed light.

Even here in Thailand, the majority of Thais see their country as a unique and great place which has never been conquered and which much of the world would love to be like (every day at 8am and 6pm, people all over the country stand for the national anthem - people salute coloured bits of cloth ) It's just a glaring lack of education.... one which America sadly shares given it's status of military preeminence - but keeping the populace in fear-filled, jingoist blindness is actually fairly effective...... it's almost a miracle that some people such as yourself have broken free...... you should head over to Europe - people respect individual thought there.

I think that much of the world would like to live in a place that they can see beautiful land scapes in, but I don't think Thailand is the first thing they have in mind. America shares a lack of education with Thailand? well if Thailand has a bad education system why would the world want to be like Thailand? But whats so wrong with the American Education system. honestly? People always point out that America has a flawed education system, yet fails to come up with the flaws if you can give me one GOOD and REASONABLE answer then fine, but if it's just that "Thier taught america is awesome in the school system, with no dark past" think again, when I was a school child I thought England and Roman Empire were so much cooler than the US. All School systems have a bias towards the ones providing their funding. In a Catholic school, they have biased towards the church.

The fantasy has been drilled in for too long for people to drop it overnight, but you are right, it is going to take some serious happenings to wake people up. As shocking and disgusting as it may be, 9/11 (oops) could have been such a call if a jingoist, imperialist fascist hadn't twisted and abused the situation to attain a carte blanche for his and his clique's sordid goals.

yeah ok.... conspiracy theory.. Repeated.

The last few years has created an immense polarisation in the world thanks to propaganda and fear-spreading. Now ALL nations can justify their inhumane treatment of minorities as "countering terrorism" - why not? If the big fish can break international laws, who's to bind the little ones?

This polarisation is going to be the lead up to the next world war, and history will remember clearly who sowed the seeds.... I just hope all these rabid nationalists above are ready to fight for the harvest their government has sowed, or will they also use the draft dodge as modelled by their heroes?

yeah ok.. conspiracy theory.... repeated...


I want hard facts or something new. I'm sorry but your just not providing enough to make me want to repeat myself over and over again. Where is the passion?! The fire needs fuel and a spark. you have the fuel, but u lack the spark. Inspire me to attack you, or put me to sleep.

 

[dutchking]

^I think he'll put you to sleep like animal control puts a wild umm...ass to sleep.

 

[meatwad4289]

are donkeys wild? I mean I know horses are, but um, have u ever heard of donkeys running wild in packs in the wilderness? I've only known of one

http://web.telia.com/~u40101705/Ior.gif

 

[dutchking]

^LoL.
I thought donkeys were considered wild, look it up.

 

[I'm Cleo!]

My friends and I are always thinking about things in terms of Civ! Good fun. As an American, I think the best Civ IV equivalent has already been posted: we've won a cultural victory (New York, L.A., and D.C., maybe?), but we keep clicking "Just one more turn!" and pursuing, umm . . . less-than-optimal strategies.

Another thread tried to assign leader characteristics to the United States, and frequently posters suggested "Aggressive". As an American taxpayer, I object strongly -- those Barracks aren't half-priced! I think the current administration is Charismatic / Imperialist, with a "favorite civic" of Hereditary Rule. (Come on! Could it be anything else?)

But to comment on the discussion that has come to dominate this thread, I think the two "sides" are just talking past each other. A lot of the American government's* misdeeds cited in the argument simply aren't considered misdeeds by the other side. In many cases, it's not a matter of disputing facts, it's a whole different morality. The extreme example is A1CBOZ, whose response to others' accusations that America is an imperial power is something along the lines of "You're darn right!" I've seen this elsewhere in the United States lately, and trust me: the discussion is never going to be resolved.

I'm Cleo!

*I say "the government's misdeeds" because I think there's a serious distinction to be made between the American people and the American government. Lots of the horrible stuff the American government has done was done without the knowledge -- much less the consent -- of the people, and only came out in retrospect. And I want to make clear to the foreign posters ( <-- wonderful use of "foreign" to mean "anyone not American", right?) how inane American political discourse is. The people are really fundamentally misinformed about politics to a disturbing degree. Polls that survey the views of Americans on actual issues almost always suggest a great discrepancy between the "values" of the people and the government they've elected. And I don't mean pop-news like Fox or CNN -- there are people with regular positions writing editorials for The New York Times who write about whether Al Gore is wearing earth tones or three button suits instead of two. A major issue that's eaten up a lot of column inches in American papers recently has been how much one of the Democratic presidential candidates paid for a haircut. And real newspapers; not tabloids. Honestly.

 

[Spearthrower]

Sorry Meatwad, what kind of details do you want me to supply?

If you can't read between the lines of my post, I'll leave it for someone else to explain to you "what 3rd world nationalism has to do with the US", because it was quite clear already and I don't intend to offend Americans in general.

I read all the posts, both sides have made absurd statements, but you repeatedly abused people for disputing your bias.... you turned this into a flame war and you can reap the consequences of it - those being a total lack of facts and increasingly absurd counter statements.

I didnt state any conspiracy theories at all, perhaps you misunderstand the use of the word. I stated opinions - I don't need to emulate other people's thoughts when I have a perfectly functioning brain of my own... one which also avails itself of international news rather than subscribing to a nationalist rag that stirs hearts and closes minds.


Hard facts? Please dont make me laugh, you have ignored enough facts already and stated your opinions entirely as truth without supplying even a shred of evidence (aside from claiming that you were knowledgeable enough at school to take over the class - *ahem*).... what gives you the right to turn round and demand anything now having abused countless posters with your opinionated tripe? If you had set about this thread as an argument based on facts, we could have been having a nice discussion now, with supporting arguments... but why should I waste my time locating and quoting things for you when you are only going to call me an "ass" anyway for disputing you?

I don't need to inspire you to attack me - but this sentence does engender some insight into your posting. The actual reason you can't respond more effectively is because it's hard to argue with someone from another country when you only have nationalistic drivel to support you - people from other countries will never accept that anyway. *shrugs*

You already are asleep.

 

[meatwad4289]

everytime I've seen a donkey some ones either riding it or having it pull stuff. according to wiki its domesticated member of the horse family.

We should have donkeys in Civ4. then We can have horses mate with them and create mules, and have that as a production bonus for 50 turns or so(mules cant reproduce so they die and 50 turns means theyll do some good)

 

[crocodiledundee]

yeah ok.. conspiracy theory.... repeated...

I don't think you really expect credibility with this kind of response. The comparison of "the big fish binding the little ones" is very accurate in terms of counter-terrorism. Russia (not such a small fish but certaily influenceable) has taken atrocities in Chechnyato a new level in its "war on terror". Indonesia cracks down on separatists in areas like Aceh and West Papua (terrotories that it invaded when the Dutch left) brutally with no respect for the wishes of the people - that's terrorism too.

How about Ethiopia's invasion of Somalia (with US weapons and intelligence) 6 months ago? Somalia finally establishes a central (Islamic) government after 16 years of civil war, but the war on terror means it can be crushed.

Kurdish separatists (the ones who America is trying to help because Saddam was fond of killing them) are active in Turkey as well as Iraq. However, Turkey is a major military ally of the US and they have no tolerance of the Kurds in their country gaining independence. So the US designates parties such as the Kurdish Workers' Party terrorist organisations! In other words, we designate you as illegitimate. Your assets will be frozen etc. Meanwhile, the Turkish military is free to torture Kurds etc.

This is all without mentioning American-backed Arab dictatorships where their torture is encouraged by America so that it can perform 'rendition' on terror suspects.

 

[crocodiledundee]

As someone who's met Americans of very different persuasions, my advice is this. Meatwad should get togther a bunch of his flag-waving friends, head to Charleston and secede from the Union.

Dutchking, let them go this time.

 

[crocodiledundee]

And I want to make clear to the foreign posters ( <-- wonderful use of "foreign" to mean "anyone not American", right?) how inane American political discourse is. The people are really fundamentally misinformed about politics to a disturbing degree. Polls that survey the views of Americans on actual issues almost always suggest a great discrepancy between the "values" of the people and the government they've elected. And I don't mean pop-news like Fox or CNN -- there are people with regular positions writing editorials for The New York Times who write about whether Al Gore is wearing earth tones or three button suits instead of two. A major issue that's eaten up a lot of column inches in American papers recently has been how much one of the Democratic presidential candidates paid for a haircut. And real newspapers; not tabloids. Honestly.

uuuhhhh....wow

 

[Peng Qi]

Guantanamo is a crime. The best natural harbour anywhere in Cuba has been annexed by the US for a century. On what standard is that possibly justifiable? Only one actually: America uber alles. Or, as someone else said on this thread, we don't care what anyone else thinks.

Well, I sure hope that every country that's occupying land they took from someone at any point in history heeds your advice. So I fully expect Russia to return all of that land they stole from the Tribe of Lithuania forthwith, and for Britain to give all of its land back to the Celts (they can move their capital to South America!). Additionally, I'm sure that Cuba will be more than happy to hand control back over to the natives after packing up and carting their asses back to Spain. The Aztecs will have Mexico again so they can resume their blood sacrifices, and, of course, South Africa must be returned to the Boers. By your logic, every country currently in existence is guilty of the same crime you're accusing the United States of.

For the record, the US has committed more state-sanctioned crime than ANY OTHER NATION. For starters, the proven record of US terrorism in Central America that was condemned by the World Court. The US has assassinated world leaders across the world for more than 60 years. Its voting record at the United Nations shows it as an international pariah.

I'm assuming you have some kind of proof of all of this assassination and terrorism. If not, stop spreading bullcrap.

And you're trying to say that America wouldn't break international law?!? Wake up!

I'm just asking you to prove it, of which you're not doing a stellar job.