Benchmarks

[T'Ocasey]

I'm curious what some of you have for benchmarks for early game.

For instance by turn 50 you want # cities or #military etc etc

I'm having a tough time figuring out what is reasonable. It seems the AI is always way ahead at the start and I have to catch up

 

[XVeris]

My general benchmark for Standard Speed (500 turn game) is 4-5 Cities and Tier 1 Governments by turn 100, or within 10 turns after. My starting build queue after settling Capital is almost always Scout -> Slinger -> Settler/Builder, depending on how much early scouting I manage to get and how many Resources nearby related to Eurekas there are (Farm, Mine, Pasture resources warrant a Builder, nearby location out of range with a lot of resources warrant a Settler). Beyond that, it comes down to how you want to win the game, what Civ you're playing, what other Civs you meet, and how kind the Barbarians are to you.

EDIT: The only addition I can make to this is that if you're playing as a Civ with immediate access to their Unique Unit in the Ancient Era (Babylon, Sumer, Gaul, Cree, Aztec, etc), build 1-2 of their UU and then the Builder/Settler decision. As for being behind the AI, that's normal. The AI get bonuses depending on the difficulty (above Chieftain, I think). The higher the difficulty, the more bonuses, such as additional units, Settlers, Techs, Civics, and increased yields.

 

[greenOak]

It really depends on what difficulty you play at, what your victory condition is, and what your goals are. For peaceful deity though:

If all you're trying to do is win, turn 50 benchmarks aren't particularly important. As long as you're not dead, you should be able to win the game. I wouldn't worry much about your culture/science output on T50 as a lot of that has to do with the city states you meet and their quests. That being said, you should be close to picking up political philosophy - that might mean having to build a couple monuments in the early game. In terms of expansion, I would aim to have 3-4 cities down. I don't build many military units early unless I have to. I'll usually open with a scout, pick up a slinger later to get the boost for archery, and I'll eventually get three so I can upgrade them to archers for the machinery eureka, but this is often all the military units I have. I'll have significantly more if the AI starts sending units toward my territory, or I get horse barbs spawning units.

Turn 100 benchmarks are far more important imo. I would look to have at least 7-8 cities founded by turn 100. I actually aim for 12 provided I have the room to expand. In my experience, I can almost always get eight cities down which is plenty enough to win any victory condition. Science/culture output depends on the victory condition. I'm most familiar with science victory benchmarks and would say that your in good shape if you're making 40+ science and 40+ culture per turn. If you care about winning quickly, I find that 100 science and 100 culture per turn on turn 100 usually puts me in line for around a turn 200 victory. I pretty much never do much better than this, but better players definitely can. Ideally, you should be close to your tier two government if you haven't already got it. In the tech tree, you should be close to (or have already researched) apprenticeship, machinery, and education. My personal turn 100 goals are to have my industrial zones (three of them) placed, and to have finished chopping out the Kilwa Kisiwani (IMO the best wonder in the game and one that I try to always build). I would also look to be making 100+ gold per turn or faith per turn depending on what kind of economy you are running. In terms of units, again I only build units if I have to. If I can lock down friendships with my neighbors, I don't build any units outside the ones that could possibly give me eurekas/inspirations. Even then I pass on some of them (kill a unit with a spearmen is a common one).

If you're in the middle of the pack in terms of science/culture by turn 100, you shouldn't have any problem racing past the AI in the next 50-100 turns. Even if you're near the bottom, the game is very winnable because the AI is so awful. In my last game, Korea was making 170 science per turn on turn 100, and was somehow making less than 300 per turn when the game finished around turn 220. Meanwhile I went from about 90 science per turn to close to 2k.

 

[slavaskii]

Science/culture output depends on the victory condition. I'm most familiar with science victory benchmarks and would say that your in good shape if you're making 40+ science and 40+ culture per turn. If you care about winning quickly, I find that 100 science and 100 culture per turn on turn 100 usually puts me in line for around a turn 200 victory. I pretty much never do much better than this, but better players definitely can.

If I may prod this a bit, how civ-specific is the 100 culture 100 science per turn benchmark on turn 100? I’ve gotten roughly near that science number, but nowhere close to the culture. I don’t usually play as civs that give direct science bonuses, but is that what you need to even have a shot at getting those yields?

Also, kinda building off that, how do you improve culture without sacrificing science? I really like the Gauls because I can ignore monuments completely through mines, but I see people winning quick SV with absolutely crazy culture yields. When and where should I be placing the theatre squares?

The best I’ve done is a turn 252 entirely peaceful Gaul victory, but I didn’t get Kilwa (lack of science city states) nor AS Research Station (always too slow to get there). I’m always interested in how to better optimize strategy for quick SV!

 

[Buktu]

If you can get an early religion you can go for Choral Music to get some much needed culture. (Work Ethic might be a better option for civs like russia where you can get insane adjacencies though.)
A culture based pantheon is great as well. And ofc you need a monument (keep in mind you can buy them in low prod cities as well) in every city. If you can try to grab the colosseum. There is a policy card for +1 science and +1 culture for international trade routes as well which I really like.

 

[KKirrin]

If I may prod this a bit, how civ-specific is the 100 culture 100 science per turn benchmark on turn 100? I’ve gotten roughly near that science number, but nowhere close to the culture. I don’t usually play as civs that give direct science bonuses, but is that what you need to even have a shot at getting those yields?

Also, kinda building off that, how do you improve culture without sacrificing science? I really like the Gauls because I can ignore monuments completely through mines, but I see people winning quick SV with absolutely crazy culture yields. When and where should I be placing the theatre squares?

The best I’ve done is a turn 252 entirely peaceful Gaul victory, but I didn’t get Kilwa (lack of science city states) nor AS Research Station (always too slow to get there). I’m always interested in how to better optimize strategy for quick SV!

Agreed that 100/100 is a great benchmark at t100 for solid wins no matter the difficulty. You can def hit 100/100 with any civ though, of course some have it much easier (Peter, bull moose teddy, etc). Say you’ve got 10 cities (which is great in general but too slow for very fast science victories) all with a monument = 20 culture, coli goes up around t65 and hits 7 cities for another 14 culture and you’re almost halfway there. Pingala in cap and chop it to 10 for another easy boost.

If you’ve got a religion you can go choral (but that goes fast on deity) or the world church (culture per 4 followers) belief. Throw in mines with Gaul/void singers and you can blast through pretty quick. City states are huge too—nan madol in particular is probably the single strongest city state for the early/mid game.

I just finished a 141 science game today with peter, standard speed deity, gonna do a write up once I’ve improved it a bit more but atex’s guide a bit down the page is super on point, highly recommend

fwiw, t100 for that game was ~450 science and 550 culture. Generally speaking your culture should always be outstripping your science until about t100 at which point science should overtake it.

I don’t usually build theater squares personally other than 1-2 for inspirations. Numbers in the 400+ range aren’t practical for the vast majority of games but aiming for 100 sci and 200 culture by t100 will pull you under t200 pretty easily. Religion is pretty needed for that imo and secret societies warps things pretty hard

 

[slavaskii]

Agreed that 100/100 is a great benchmark at t100 for solid wins no matter the difficulty. You can def hit 100/100 with any civ though, of course some have it much easier (Peter, bull moose teddy, etc). Say you’ve got 10 cities (which is great in general but too slow for very fast science victories) all with a monument = 20 culture, coli goes up around t65 and hits 7 cities for another 14 culture and you’re almost halfway there. Pingala in cap and chop it to 10 for another easy boost.

If you’ve got a religion you can go choral (but that goes fast on deity) or the world church (culture per 4 followers) belief. Throw in mines with Gaul/void singers and you can blast through pretty quick. City states are huge too—nan madol in particular is probably the single strongest city state for the early/mid game.

I just finished a 141 science game today with peter, standard speed deity, gonna do a write up once I’ve improved it a bit more but atex’s guide a bit down the page is super on point, highly recommend

fwiw, t100 for that game was ~450 science and 550 culture. Generally speaking your culture should always be outstripping your science until about t100 at which point science should overtake it.

I don’t usually build theater squares personally other than 1-2 for inspirations. Numbers in the 400+ range aren’t practical for the vast majority of games but aiming for 100 sci and 200 culture by t100 will pull you under t200 pretty easily. Religion is pretty needed for that imo and secret societies warps things pretty hard

Wow - 450 science and 550 culture by turn 100 is astounding! I nearly hit the 100/100 benchmark yesterday in a game with Rome, if I didn't go Holy Sites first I probably could've made it (for some reason, I've been increasingly convinced that faith-buying settlers is an absolute must). Missed out just barely on a religion, but I conquered Gran Columbia and took control of their faith empire. I did notice that Choral Music goes incredibly fast - Work Ethic stays longer and Jesuit Education never gets taken, from what I've seen, but I try to save my faith for spaceports so Jesuit Education isn't all that good imho.

I'm eagerly awaiting your write-up (partially because I feel like I constantly mess up the first 100 turns, never sure how to properly expand), but if I may ask a question about the late game, how debilitating is it to get Offworld Mission at the very end of the tech tree? In my Gaul game, I was extremely lucky to get it nearly right after Exoplanet Expedition, but lately I've only gotten it at the end of the tech tree. Perhaps you're making enough beakers per turn to be researching the Future Era techs super quickly, but I find that a setback like this inevitably puts me away 10-20 turns. Thanks!

 

[KKirrin]

Yeah the faith settler expansion is so strong, I’d def prioritize that over 100/100 especially with Rome where every city in the early game is an instant +2 culture

And yup, getting screwed on the tech tree sucks. In an ideal world it’s 57 techs total but it can be as many as 72 iirc. Even if you’re one turning that costs you 15 turns.

It’s not quite as bad as it seems though, because generally moon landing gets you to tier3 govt at which point you can build the royal society to use builder charges to finish the third and fourth projects.

basically you’re going to have some dead time anyway, so while a bad tech tree will always cost you 15 turns, usually 10-12 of those would be spent teching anyway/using charges so in most games it’s dead time regardless. If your science is low though it can cost 20+ turns easy

the real trick to going sub 150 seems to be having enough culture to hit your t4 govt before the third and fourth projects, that way you can bypass t3 gov and just chop the projects plus all your lasers in the same turn (so it’s still only 3 space ports but you need 3 chop cities instead of the usual 2)

 

[greenOak]

Agreed that 100/100 is a great benchmark at t100 for solid wins no matter the difficulty. You can def hit 100/100 with any civ though, of course some have it much easier (Peter, bull moose teddy, etc). Say you’ve got 10 cities (which is great in general but too slow for very fast science victories) all with a monument = 20 culture, coli goes up around t65 and hits 7 cities for another 14 culture and you’re almost halfway there. Pingala in cap and chop it to 10 for another easy boost.

If you’ve got a religion you can go choral (but that goes fast on deity) or the world church (culture per 4 followers) belief. Throw in mines with Gaul/void singers and you can blast through pretty quick. City states are huge too—nan madol in particular is probably the single strongest city state for the early/mid game.

I just finished a 141 science game today with peter, standard speed deity, gonna do a write up once I’ve improved it a bit more but atex’s guide a bit down the page is super on point, highly recommend

fwiw, t100 for that game was ~450 science and 550 culture. Generally speaking your culture should always be outstripping your science until about t100 at which point science should overtake it.

I don’t usually build theater squares personally other than 1-2 for inspirations. Numbers in the 400+ range aren’t practical for the vast majority of games but aiming for 100 sci and 200 culture by t100 will pull you under t200 pretty easily. Religion is pretty needed for that imo and secret societies warps things pretty hard

If you don't mind me asking, how are you able to generate such huge amounts of culture with only a couple theatre squares? Is world church that good? I usually take religious colonisation + work ethic in my games.

 

[Buktu]

If you don't mind me asking, how are you able to generate such huge amounts of culture with only a couple theatre squares? Is world church that good? I usually take religious colonisation + work ethic in my games.

I guess he had massive amounts of faith per turn with the voidsingers since he played as Peter. Voidsingers also mean you have slots for alot of great works to generate more culture as well since you earn those gps anyway. I guess there was also a Kilwa and 2 cultural (Nan Madol, Antananarivo?) cs involved to boost up the high base numbers even more.

 

[ATEX]

141 om Standard speed is extremely fast. Maybe the fastet GS science win? Looking forward to reading about the game. If you can match it or get close without SS, it would be a record game.

 

[KKirrin]

If you don't mind me asking, how are you able to generate such huge amounts of culture with only a couple theatre squares? Is world church that good? I usually take religious colonisation + work ethic in my games.

buktu is spot on above- it’s mostly coming from the combination of nan/anti/Kilwa. That trio alone is probably accounting for 45% of the culture.

I’ll check the exact sources later but I’d guess another 50 or so is from great writers/artists, another 40 or so from monuments with 20 cities. World church is probably chipping in 25 or so, I’ve kept my cities small at 4 pop for the 5% happiness buff aside from a 15 pop Pingala capital and another 10 pop city. Haven’t even slotted campus adjacency or rationalization at that point either.

void slingers are def incredibly clutch. I’ve got over 500 faith a turn at t100 so that’s another 100.

And yup atex, pretty quick! I think I can get it down into the Late 130s though and am working on that now. I’m not totally sure that peter is going to pull off anything quite so low without secret societies, but late 140s is probably possible.

Having played with Norway a bit though I think I’ve figured out some pretty useful stuff for getting him sub 150 in hof. The bottlenecks change a lot going under 150

 

[EscapedGoat]

141 om Standard speed is extremely fast. Maybe the fastet GS science win? Looking forward to reading about the game. If you can match it or get close without SS, it would be a record game.

No way that will be possible without SS-Void Singers, the synergy with Russia is just ridiculous in the extreme compared to a "vanilla" game. Russia + Void singers is literally the perfect combo.

 

[ATEX]

Sub 150 with Norway should be very doable. Both me and Minou finished in the 150s on our first Norway attempts, so with a bit practice and optimalization Im convinced Norway can see the 130s even with no SS. But ofc as you go lower, every turn gets harder to shave off.

 

[KKirrin]

Yeah I have zero doubt that you guys are going to post a 140s win, just a matter of time. Norway pillage breaks the game just as much as ss/Russia imo, if not more. It’s hard to wrap your head around just how powerful cheesing/pillaging with outpost cities is until you’ve actually done it. The 130s there is just going to be a question of when the stars align between city states/tech trees etc

Tossed that write up up for those who are interested, did get that game all the way down to 139

 

[Victoria]

just how powerful cheesing/pillaging with outpost cities is until you’ve actually done it.

It’s only really doable with Norway but it is so disgusting I never use it.

from my side benchmarks have always been
PP by T50
Feudalism by T80
10 cities by T100
Merchant by T100
100 science and 80 culture by T100
The 10x100 I found not too difficult and are now far happier with 7x70

benchmarks should be dreams not regular realities.

 

[walkerjks]

It’s only really doable with Norway but it is so disgusting I never use it.

from my side benchmarks have always been
PP by T50
Feudalism by T80
10 cities by T100
Merchant by T100
100 science and 80 culture by T100
The 10x100 I found not too difficult and are now far happier with 7x70

benchmarks should be dreams not regular realities.

That seems really close. I mean, if I have 8 cities and 2 settlers in transit on turn 100, whatever, that is good enough. If I am a bit below 100 science and 80 culture, ok (and I might flip those figures for how I play). metrics have changed so much and continue to change. Certainly everything is speeding up - they are giving us more ways to generate culture, science, and faith earlier.

 

[Victoria]

if I have 8 cities and 2 settlers in transit on turn 100, whatever, that is good enough

it’s a benchmark, not a victory screen So be as flexible as you like