It's a post showing that that's what you can expect in a MP game vs good players. I will post some details (there's an article, I swear) on how it's done and why it's a ridiculous improvement over not doing it. I think that the pop rush is the pinnacle of civ 4. It even allows you to play games with those teamer snobs, and even win.
Benefits of early bronze working: an interactive guide for rushing multiplayer
- Thread starter Gregonar
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It's a post showing that that's what you can expect in a MP game vs good players. I will post some details (there's an article, I swear) on how it's done and why it's a ridiculous improvement over not doing it. I think that the pop rush is the pinnacle of civ 4. It even allows you to play games with those teamer snobs, and even win.
Gotrilliten
Warlord
I know this thread has already had its fill of off-topic subjects
, but how did you make your view like that?In this case I would say there's a great difference in what we perceive as vs. good players, to have 3 cities at t40+a sizeable force pretty much rules out being choked early on, against the people I play MP with, that never happens. Chokes are par the course for serious MP games, this game certainly did not have you being molested by early chokes.
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One Pop whipping Chariots is going to be very inefficient use of one's happiness cap. You'll be spending the next 60t or so recovering from excessive whipping down to Pop 1 in all cities.
Good luck!
Sun Tzu Wu
Good luck!
Sun Tzu Wu
Thank you, forum veteran, for the lazy quip, and your smug attempt to kill this thread. But I'll be generous and give you a perfectly reasonable response.
Chain whipping more than twice is uncommon on quick speed, due to the rather short span of each anger period. If I whip at T30 and T32, then I have 2
until T36, and 1 until T42. Even in a city with no other happy bonuses, that reduces my city cap to size 2 for 4 turns and then 3 for 6 turns. Cities this early in the game often do not have useful tiles to work beyond size 2, and often size 1. The 2 for 4 turns might not have any impact in how I manage that city because it can take that long to reach that lower cap anyway. In the map I specifically posted, there are no riverside cottages I can work other than the 2 at the capital, having citizens work a 2f1c tile before I can exploit my free unit limit, happy cap, etc, is very inefficient, and makes me vulnerable against another player who do.
The 60 turns you've snidely suggested isn't even mathematically possible in the posted map. Try again.
I know this thread has already had its fill of off-topic subjects
Press Ctrl Left Arrow or Right Arrow. I used to play a lot of game in this view when I just switched from Civ III
The 15 (or 17) chariot exercise merely demonstrates the production potential of the early game. In a typical MP game, yes, some of those chariots might be archers instead. It's really not that hard to have enough units at key locations to prevent a choke.
In 3v3 inland_sea games, maybe I'm the player in the middle and have some free build time. Maybe its a TBG game, and I have an AGG teammate who is holding the fort early so that I can build a stack of chariots by T40.
If such a tactic is old for you, and you can do this on a regular basis, as I could not, then clearly you belong in another thread.
Here are the numbers I looked at when I was investigating the mechanics of slavery:
Growth increment for city sizes 1-6 on quick speed are: 14/16/17/18/20/21
The base rate for a whip is 20 hammers (duh).
Therefore, whipping at size 2 converts your food to hammers at a rate of 20/14 = 1.43, then it goes down significantly at size 3 to 20/16 = 1.25, and continues to go down until break even at size 6. Whipping 2 at size 4 gives a rate of 40/(16+17) = 1.21 and whipping 3 at size 6 gives 60/(17+18+20) = 1.09.
Meanwhile, using food to produce workers/settlers gives a flat rate of 1.00.
What this means is that if I put food towards worker/settler production directly, I lose the excellent conversion rate that I can get from whipping. As well, if I am either EXP or IMP, using food towards producing workers or settlers means that I do not get the trait bonus, so EXP and IMP civs especially should be whipping or chopping in order to build settlers or workers.
Grieving for dead citizens:
Typically, a capital can have 1-2 high yield tiles setup early. It makes sense to not whip these guys. However is it worth it work forests or even mines?
The three yield forest tile is slightly misleading. The working citizen needs to feed itself, which means that a grassland forest is only an meagre 1 hammer/turn, while a plains forests is even less because I have to subtract the value of 1 food from the 2 hammer yield. Since 1 food can be worth up to 1.43 (2 or more after granaries) hammers through slavery, the plains forest is worth less than 1 hammer/turn. The mine in turn, is really only 2 hammer/turn (or less if we consider the food/hammer conversion rate)
When I whip that citizen, I lose that 1-2 hammers/turn until it grows back, which might only be 1-3 turns. However, getting that worker or settler a couple of turns sooner means that I can get more high yield tiles up and running. If I found a few city, I get 2 tiles working right away. If there is a high yield tile that I can work for my 2nd city, than I can potentially get 7 yield/turn on settle, 8 if it's a plains/hill.
If I whip two citizens who are only working forest tiles, and get a settler 3 turns sooner, I quickly gain that back when that settler plants and start making 7 or 8 per turn. Of course, if it's a 6 food tile, then that 6f1h can potentially be 6 x 1.43 + 2 = 10.4 yield per turn. This is why that extra citizen working a forest tile should always be whipped away into settlers to make use of other high yield tiles, workers to improve those tiles, or units to defend those tiles. So don't grieve for those dead citizens, because they have been converted into something much better.
Other multipliers:
EXP and IMP are powerful in the early game because they increase the food/hammer conversion rate towards workers and settlers. The 1.4 or 1.25 conversion rate can be directly multiplied to the 1.5 or 1.25 IMP and EXP bonuses. Doing the 2/1 whip as Joao, for example, you get a conversion rate of 2.1 for settlers, and 1.75 for workers. The latter set of numbers reflect the real power of IMP or EXP early, and is only possible through slavery/chopping. How this plays out in micromanagement is that whenever I receive chopped hammers or whenever I whip, I should switch to building workers/settlers in that city. I should be building units in the gaps to let the city grow.
In the early game, the most important thing is getting all the high yield tiles that you can reach up and running. Getting that extra bacon or beef or iron up is a huge boost to your production/growth, something which the cottage or forest tile cannot do. So it makes sense to exploit the excellent food-hammer conversion rate at sizes 1 or 2 early in the game to get to 4-7 cities right away.
A lot of players talk about the power of the wet corn start. On quick, you can research Agriculture first if you don't have it and start farming right away, giving you a 6f tile by T11 or 12. That 6f tile is really worth 8 through slavery, which is more than what you can get from cows or the early copper mine. Plus those others require more expensive techs.
I'll post more later about the transition game, after you're hit the limit for how many units you can field (not just have). It involves building things like granaries, barracks, monuments, libraries, also city specialization, working cottages, and building more expensive units.
Here's a recent mp game I played. It's a 3v3 inland_sea. I got kind of a ridiculous draw-- AGG Sumeria with marble top and double bacon, so it was inevitable that I overpower my neighbour. View it through multiplayer.
Growth increment for city sizes 1-6 on quick speed are: 14/16/17/18/20/21
The base rate for a whip is 20 hammers (duh).
Therefore, whipping at size 2 converts your food to hammers at a rate of 20/14 = 1.43, then it goes down significantly at size 3 to 20/16 = 1.25, and continues to go down until break even at size 6. Whipping 2 at size 4 gives a rate of 40/(16+17) = 1.21 and whipping 3 at size 6 gives 60/(17+18+20) = 1.09.
Meanwhile, using food to produce workers/settlers gives a flat rate of 1.00.
What this means is that if I put food towards worker/settler production directly, I lose the excellent conversion rate that I can get from whipping. As well, if I am either EXP or IMP, using food towards producing workers or settlers means that I do not get the trait bonus, so EXP and IMP civs especially should be whipping or chopping in order to build settlers or workers.
Grieving for dead citizens:
Typically, a capital can have 1-2 high yield tiles setup early. It makes sense to not whip these guys. However is it worth it work forests or even mines?
The three yield forest tile is slightly misleading. The working citizen needs to feed itself, which means that a grassland forest is only an meagre 1 hammer/turn, while a plains forests is even less because I have to subtract the value of 1 food from the 2 hammer yield. Since 1 food can be worth up to 1.43 (2 or more after granaries) hammers through slavery, the plains forest is worth less than 1 hammer/turn. The mine in turn, is really only 2 hammer/turn (or less if we consider the food/hammer conversion rate)
When I whip that citizen, I lose that 1-2 hammers/turn until it grows back, which might only be 1-3 turns. However, getting that worker or settler a couple of turns sooner means that I can get more high yield tiles up and running. If I found a few city, I get 2 tiles working right away. If there is a high yield tile that I can work for my 2nd city, than I can potentially get 7 yield/turn on settle, 8 if it's a plains/hill.
If I whip two citizens who are only working forest tiles, and get a settler 3 turns sooner, I quickly gain that back when that settler plants and start making 7 or 8 per turn. Of course, if it's a 6 food tile, then that 6f1h can potentially be 6 x 1.43 + 2 = 10.4 yield per turn. This is why that extra citizen working a forest tile should always be whipped away into settlers to make use of other high yield tiles, workers to improve those tiles, or units to defend those tiles. So don't grieve for those dead citizens, because they have been converted into something much better.
Other multipliers:
EXP and IMP are powerful in the early game because they increase the food/hammer conversion rate towards workers and settlers. The 1.4 or 1.25 conversion rate can be directly multiplied to the 1.5 or 1.25 IMP and EXP bonuses. Doing the 2/1 whip as Joao, for example, you get a conversion rate of 2.1 for settlers, and 1.75 for workers. The latter set of numbers reflect the real power of IMP or EXP early, and is only possible through slavery/chopping. How this plays out in micromanagement is that whenever I receive chopped hammers or whenever I whip, I should switch to building workers/settlers in that city. I should be building units in the gaps to let the city grow.
In the early game, the most important thing is getting all the high yield tiles that you can reach up and running. Getting that extra bacon or beef or iron up is a huge boost to your production/growth, something which the cottage or forest tile cannot do. So it makes sense to exploit the excellent food-hammer conversion rate at sizes 1 or 2 early in the game to get to 4-7 cities right away.
A lot of players talk about the power of the wet corn start. On quick, you can research Agriculture first if you don't have it and start farming right away, giving you a 6f tile by T11 or 12. That 6f tile is really worth 8 through slavery, which is more than what you can get from cows or the early copper mine. Plus those others require more expensive techs.
I'll post more later about the transition game, after you're hit the limit for how many units you can field (not just have). It involves building things like granaries, barracks, monuments, libraries, also city specialization, working cottages, and building more expensive units.
Here's a recent mp game I played. It's a 3v3 inland_sea. I got kind of a ridiculous draw-- AGG Sumeria with marble top and double bacon, so it was inevitable that I overpower my neighbour. View it through multiplayer.
Seraiel
If you want anything from I please ask in German
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I don't think that that was STW's intention.
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Sorry, I missed the fact that this is a Quick speed game rather than Normal speed, which is more common for this forum. My mistake. Since this is Quick speed, it will take longer to stack whipping unhappiness, but it will still be an issue. You are right that 60t of unhappiness it is very unlikely; perhaps 24t at Quick speed, which is 36t - 12t (6 whips - 2 whips worn off) or something similar.
Thank you for your kind explanation of whipping at Quick speed.
I was just trying to express my opinion. I don't understand why you blantly twisted that into something negative as in "kill this thread". Why would anyone want to do that?
I like Deity Quick speed, so I may take up your challenge of building 15 chariots on this map. Thanks!
Sun Tzu Wu
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Given that the goal is to chop/whip/build 15 Chariots by turn 40, it seems it may be beneficial for at least some of these Chariots to get a promotion via a Barracks in the Capital. A Barracks (33H) is slightly less than two Chariots (2 x 20H) in cost; it is also a 2P whip, unlike the Chariot whips which must be 1P. Even with three cities, the Capital is likely to build about half the Chariots which seems to be a good return on investment. The promotion can be either Combat I or Flanking I. Or would it be better to have 1-2 more Chariots and all Chariots be unpromoted?
Sun Tzu Wu
Sun Tzu Wu
Seraiel
If you want anything from I please ask in German
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Barracks are usually worth it when building more than 10 units from that city. I often go the same way when I play Egypt or Persia, that you describe. Getting a 2pop-whip is sometimes the only thing that can keep the capital happy just a little longer and it's no real lose as the next chariot gets produced from overflow only, so it's actually a trade of 1 turn no chariot against 3-5 promoted chariots instead of unpromoted, which I personally prefer, as there's also a game after the rush, and the capital will produce far more than 10 chariots over the cause of the game.
If only the first city counts, it's probably best to only found 2 cities and produce nothing but unpromoted chariots, but from the 2nd city onwards the baracks-promoted chariots already have the advantage because they got the 2nd promotion, being medic, shock, sentry, or whatever.
If only the first city counts, it's probably best to only found 2 cities and produce nothing but unpromoted chariots, but from the 2nd city onwards the baracks-promoted chariots already have the advantage because they got the 2nd promotion, being medic, shock, sentry, or whatever.
You're welcome to try... If you can win I'll be impressed... Just extract into your mods-folder and load a mod (as usual).
PS!
It's not too far out there... AI's get slightly cheaper stuff than Deity, they start with Mining (in addition to the four Deity starting-techs) and they have a minus two attitude (compared to the minus one attitude from Deity). Happiness bonus set to three (Deity is four). Oh, and max NoC maintenance is ten (up from eight).
Yours Sincerely
Kjotleik of Norway
Seraiel
If you want anything from I please ask in German
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There is no -1 modifier on relations on Deity, or is there? I am in the team that wrote Civ Illustrated, and I don't know of any but the normal +2 to -2 that specific leaders give. If all leaders have additional -2, it would mean that all opponents are annoyed from the start? That'd probably be killer because chance to get dowed on annoyed is like 3-5 times the one of normal, but my real question:
How do I make this work with BUFFY and don't screw up my CIV installation? Is there anything I have to save as a backup so I can restore the original installation, or is it just a simple addon that I can delete whenever I want?
Max maintenance from 8 to 10 btw is also really harsh, but if this is playable without screwing my CIV installation, I'll try just for the fun.
If I beat that difficulty, will you rename it after me and release it in the Mods section?
So "Seraiel" instead of "DeityPlus" .
Seraiel
How do I make this work with BUFFY and don't screw up my CIV installation? Is there anything I have to save as a backup so I can restore the original installation, or is it just a simple addon that I can delete whenever I want?
Max maintenance from 8 to 10 btw is also really harsh, but if this is playable without screwing my CIV installation, I'll try just for the fun.
If I beat that difficulty, will you rename it after me and release it in the Mods section?
So "Seraiel" instead of "DeityPlus" .Seraiel
There is a -1 modifier on relations in Deity, but this is introduced at Noble level, so you may not have noticed it.
Warlord gets 0, Chieftain +1 and Settler +2 attitude.
The minimum base attitude for any of the leaders (from LeaderHeadInfos.xml) is -1, and max is 2. But if you look in your games, guys like Genghis and Monty will have -2 first impression attitude, so the extra -1 is coming from >Warlord difficulty.
Warlord gets 0, Chieftain +1 and Settler +2 attitude.
The minimum base attitude for any of the leaders (from LeaderHeadInfos.xml) is -1, and max is 2. But if you look in your games, guys like Genghis and Monty will have -2 first impression attitude, so the extra -1 is coming from >Warlord difficulty.
Seraiel
If you want anything from I please ask in German
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Thx for that info. Unfortunately, hidden modifiers don't get shown with the HoF-mod, as that's a BULL exclusive feature depending on the injection of game-files, something that's forbidden for HoF because only original files are allowed. Those hidden modifiers already costed me some trades when an AI should have been friendly but wasn't. Knowing this will help.
I'm currently still playing a different round (see recent thread) and the SGOTM, so it might take some time 'til I'll give this a try. Might be interesting to set up a round and maybe recieve some shadows on it.
When I said that I'd support a difficulty beyond Deity, I ment from official side, because I'm a 100% HoF-player and usually don't care about games that cannot be submitted. Playing this anyhow, could be like Son-Goku or Vegeta training in the 100 times gravity chamber to get stronger, so playing this probably would make playing normal Deity easier and make me even better at it. Not being able to submit the game is a huge malus though, as I promised to myself to not play any games not pushing me forward towards my aim of getting an Elite Quattromaster.
I'm currently still playing a different round (see recent thread) and the SGOTM, so it might take some time 'til I'll give this a try. Might be interesting to set up a round and maybe recieve some shadows on it.
When I said that I'd support a difficulty beyond Deity, I ment from official side, because I'm a 100% HoF-player and usually don't care about games that cannot be submitted. Playing this anyhow, could be like Son-Goku or Vegeta training in the 100 times gravity chamber to get stronger, so playing this probably would make playing normal Deity easier and make me even better at it. Not being able to submit the game is a huge malus though, as I promised to myself to not play any games not pushing me forward towards my aim of getting an Elite Quattromaster.
There is no -1 modifier on relations on Deity, or is there? I am in the team that wrote Civ Illustrated, and I don't know of any but the normal +2 to -2 that specific leaders give. If all leaders have additional -2, it would mean that all opponents are annoyed from the start? That'd probably be killer because chance to get dowed on annoyed is like 3-5 times the one of normal, but my real question:
How do I make this work with BUFFY and don't screw up my CIV installation? Is there anything I have to save as a backup so I can restore the original installation, or is it just a simple addon that I can delete whenever I want?
Max maintenance from 8 to 10 btw is also really harsh, but if this is playable without screwing my CIV installation, I'll try just for the fun.
If I beat that difficulty, will you rename it after me and release it in the Mods section?
Seraiel
The two files included in this mod are [Assets/XML/GameInfo/CIV4HandicapInfo.xml] and [Assets/XML/Text/CIV4GameText_DeityPlus.xml] - neither which are in my BUFFY-3.19.003 mod. So it should be as simple as to copy the files into their respective folders in the BUFFY mod. I tried, but when I loaded the BUFFY mod I got the message that the game would not be admissible as HOF or GOTM games. The latter may have to do with my other settings, though... (you'll just have to copy them into the mod yourself and test it out. Just delete the two files if it doesn't work to your satisfaction).
And as Phate pointed out - in CIV4HandicapInfo.xml there is a tag called <iAttitudeChange>. It is set to minus one (-1) for Noble up through Deity. Warlord is zero, Chieftain is one and Settler is two. Also the <iHappyBonus> - which is constant at four from Warlord through to Deity (!) has been reduced to three. I would believe the latter to have a stronger negative impact than the former, but who knows... not me, at the moment, at least.
And if you really can beat this, I'll be happy to name this little thing after you. I can just imagine the hype... Played Seraiel much lately? A shadow-game with it should be fine also. I foresee some headbanging on walls and rage-quitting from players on my level, though (I'm nowhere near beating Deity myself...).
Yours Sincerely
Kjotleik of Norway
There seems to be a lot of antagonism towards players who strategize from primarily a MP standpoint. I don't mean to overreact.
That said, it took a few MP games for me to dump the habit of building barracks/granaries first in my cities. Barracks, because the first 5-10 units make a big difference in terms of who controls the battlefield, and granaries, because there are no units before HA/WE/catapult that I can comfortably 2-whip, and cities reach their happiness cap too soon. The exception might be if I play a CHA leader and have more cap room to play with. AGG leaders also have the option to build barracks before units as they are much cheaper; plus their melee units can get the powerful specialist promotions.
In MP play, I think that the time to start buildings is after the battle lines have stablilized, when both players have stacks on defensive tiles, and each player is suffering a 10+ gpt to supply units. This is the time to get buildings in part because that's the only thing you can build. I will post more on the transition game later.
plasmacannon
Emperor
Thanks Gregonar for posting mp strategies.
I think it brings a refreshing new viewpoint to a game most of us are already familiar with.
I play mp games at home on a LAN with a friend vs 6-8 AIs depending on map size.
Since, our goal is to eliminate the AIs and earn the highest score we can, we don't attack each other. So, I am used to different strategies myself.
I look forward to more examples that you post in this area.
I think it brings a refreshing new viewpoint to a game most of us are already familiar with.
I play mp games at home on a LAN with a friend vs 6-8 AIs depending on map size.
Since, our goal is to eliminate the AIs and earn the highest score we can, we don't attack each other. So, I am used to different strategies myself.
I look forward to more examples that you post in this area.
You're welcome
I hate looking into numbers, but I hate badly losing MP games even more. Knowing about the broken food/hammer conversion ratio through slavery, even before granaries, should be helpful in almost any type of game you play. I still play the occasional single player game to try different things--usually, if I don't aggressively whip/chop in the early turns, I would still have almost nothing by turn 40, not 3 cities nor the 17 chariots.
I hate looking into numbers, but I hate badly losing MP games even more. Knowing about the broken food/hammer conversion ratio through slavery, even before granaries, should be helpful in almost any type of game you play. I still play the occasional single player game to try different things--usually, if I don't aggressively whip/chop in the early turns, I would still have almost nothing by turn 40, not 3 cities nor the 17 chariots.
