Berserker or Samurai?

[reddishrecue]

Which macemen would you prefer to have. Berserkers, or samurai? or plain macemen?

 

[bhavv]

Berzerker - +10% city attack and amphibious is very nice, but it comes with a better leader IMO.

 

[PibbZ]

Samurai. Drill combined with City Raider makes for some very decent attackers. And you get Combat 1 for free (which gives +10% str everywhere, instead of just vs Cities)

Allthough, i love the Berserkers aswell, being a Norwegian myself and all

 

[Akbarthegreat]

Both are awesome.
Berserkers-Excellent for mid-game invasion. Must be even better on Archipelago maps.
Samurai-Nice overall, like the Oromo but with a few differences.
Tough to decide. I'll vote later, after looking at what others have to say.

 

[karadoc]

The samurai is tougher... but it requires iron (whereas berserkers can use either metal). But I'd still choose the samurai anyway, even with the risk of not being able to get it. (I agree that Ragnar has better traits, but I'm not taking that into account.)

 

[vranasm]

slightly favor the samurais... very slightly...

to be honest don't like maces at all prefer other attack units.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Samurai are a bit better. Amphibious is nice and so is the 10% city attack, but they just don't do what the first strikes can do for the samurai. I've used both and unless I'm attacking amphibiously, the samurai have better odds.

Amphibious is possible for AGG at 5 xp too, so that niche isn't so impressive as it would be for a non-AGG leader. The other issue with it on maces is that attacking amphibiously with maces is not really practical. You can't bombard away defenses until chemistry, but without that you need to either land or attack massive defensive bonuses that are probably greater than what amphibious gives you. I guess you could use spies...but you need lots of espionage at a time it's not readily available for that as well as the extra diverted into building them. In practice this tend to be weaker than rifle wars...even for ragnar and even on water maps.

Berserker is still OK but it really isn't practical to use in its supposed niche. Samurai, on the other hand, carry sufficient str with the AGG bonus and first strikes to soundly maul defenders, and unlike the berserker promo samurai's helps a lot more consistently (though not always, knights don't defend well vs combat I cr II + maces regardless)

 

[JK_47]

Berserker is still OK but it really isn't practical to use in its supposed niche.

I agree. It seems the amphibious bonus isn't very effective for the era, since there isn't an effective way to bombard cities from water tiles until much later. That said, having the amphibious trait as you upgrade your units into the Chemistry bombard era could really turn the tide. heh, get it? Tide?

 

[Windsor]

Plain maceman = You got an earlier or later UU which is probably better.

Amphibious at that point in the game is just too niche and the CR-bonus is rather small, but I still prefer the Berserker to the Samurai. Tokugawa is very iron dependent. His slow start makes medieval war even less attractive and then you get pro/agg gunpowder units.

 

[babar]

Samurai comfortably for me (despite iron requirement), for reasons already mentioned. They are extra tough with terrain bonuses too.

 

[twansalem]

I agree. It seems the amphibious bonus isn't very effective for the era, since there isn't an effective way to bombard cities from water tiles until much later. That said, having the amphibious trait as you upgrade your units into the Chemistry bombard era could really turn the tide. heh, get it? Tide?

With Ragnar being financial, amassing enough gold for unit upgrades certainly is a possibility. I myself have enjoyed a couple games where I waited for the industrial era to upgrade my amphibious, city raider II berserkers to infantry, when I could then load them onto transports escorted by destroyers. I haven't bothered doing the math, but it certainly seems like amphibious, city raider II infantry are better city attackers than marines, and you can have them before researching industrialism.

Of course this strategy really only works if you're playing at a difficulty level in your comfort zone. It's hard to get enough gold without compromising research if you're challenging yourself.

By the way, I voted berserker, not because they're necessarily better than samurai, but because I personally find them more fun, and it's just hard to view them apart from their associated leaders, and I'd rather have Ragnar's traits over those of Tokugawa any day.

 

[Baldor]

I would like to mention the modern era threath to enemy costal cities when a taskforce of warships and transports, and units upgraded from Berserkers, are lurking in range of several targets. Fighterplanes from at least three carriers are constantly softening the defensive units and the cultural city defence is gone thanks to bombardment from destroyers and battleships.

The Mech-Infantry-berserkers, the highest promoted units in the game.

 

[MantaRevan]

I generally like samurai better, but don't go out of your way for this because the vikes are a better all-around civ.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

I agree. It seems the amphibious bonus isn't very effective for the era, since there isn't an effective way to bombard cities from water tiles until much later. That said, having the amphibious trait as you upgrade your units into the Chemistry bombard era could really turn the tide. heh, get it? Tide?

Thing is, ragnar can easily build rifles w/ theo and grab combat II + amphibious, for much less cost. Alternatively, he can simply draft and eat a %victory chance hit, which won't be that bad considering draft troops + theo come with combat I and can take a counter-promotion and frigates can bombard the defenses.

Alternatively, he can simply land the rifles, since it's a lot easier to come by gobs of draft units than it is gobs of upgraded units. Using this, one doesn't even need chemistry unless the target has it.

Those options usually beat out the build + upgrade approach, even with amphibious factored.

It's possible on slower speeds that CR II berserkers can lay the wood on coastal cities with only bombardment help, even against full medieval units. I wouldn't try it on normal, but on marathon I can picture it succeeding.

 

[elohssa]

Berserkers. I think in at least 10% of my past games I ended up without iron and was rescued by a mace rush. Now if I was Japan in those games I would have nothing to rush with but axes. The +10% city attack is very helpful and being able to attack over rivers can speed up a war.

 

[Ataxerxes]

I'll take the Samurai. By that point in the game I probably have Iron somewhere. I like the Samurai's 2 first strikes over the Berserker's feature. Both are, however, good UU's.

Obviously, map plays into this. On Archipelago you can do wicked things with Berserkers so they're better on that map. As an overall leader, however, I'll take Ragnar over Tokugawa. The Financial over Protective gap more than makes up for Toku's slight UU and UB advantage. So my vote is considering the UU in isolation from the leader and assuming normal maps.

 

[Akbarthegreat]

Amphibious is possible for AGG at 5 xp too, so that niche isn't so impressive as it would be for a non-AGG leader.

Wow- you are really observant

 

[Iranon]

Pirates vs. Ninjas, non-scoundrel edition.

Mass upgrading allows us to channel the entire output of our empire into military buildup, worth considering for a big push even if it's not terribly efficient. This and the draft only compete if we're so production-heavy we can draft away our entire economy beyond what's needed to pay the bills.
Also, with a free promotion and FIN, upgrading is actually efficient in a time when we have access to better gold than production multipliers.

Nevertheless, I prefer Samurai. They'd do much more for a non-Protective leader (early AGG/PRO Musektmen aren't bad at all either, their value for upgrading also decreases), but the first strikes are a major assets.

 

[Baldor]

Mass upgrading 12 berserkers twice, as substitutes for marines, with hard earned and appropriate promotions inside a well protected taskforce, can provide you with a versatile advantage. Opponents are given the choice between losing costal cities or being weak where your main landinvation or main conflict arena takes place. The players who doesn’t use an overwhelming variety of different types of units and tactics, can often develop a dull modern style of warfare, in my opinion.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

The players who doesn’t use an overwhelming variety of different types of units and tactics, can often develop a dull modern style of warfare, in my opinion.

Stock units aren't so bad at amphibious strikes vs enemies that are behind in tech though. And in modern, you can strip defenses and even do damage from the sea