Berserkers

[Bro]

So how about those Berserkers! I've found them pretty handy! They have a slight disadvantage in the beginning but once you start to upgrade them they start to cut trough the enemy lines pretty well. Don't mind losing a couple cause I'm always building loads of them. If the enemy has loads of farms the 4 movement means you can pillage and attack with them at the same turn. And when they get wounded you can pull them back effectively. If there's water nearby it's even better cause Norway has no embarking penalties which means the enemy units will not be able to follow them to the waters.

 

[Siptah]

The first problem is that you have to hard build them. The second one is the comparison to Knights.

 

[Bro]

The first problem is that you have to hard build them. The second one is the comparison to Knights.

Sure you have to build them and can't upgrade to them, but this is hardly a major problem. For instance in this game I did not have Iron so I could not have upgraded Chariots to Knights.. and IMO Chariots just suck. Then the comparison to Knights, let's do that then. You get +50% production towards Berserkers from Feudalism and this is the way you should be anyways going. Second, they are melee units so they gain +4 strength from Oligarchy while Knights do not. Third, they have a different promotion tree than Knights, their first promotions are +7 strength vs melee/ranged and +10 strength vs ranged attacks. Knights have only +7 strength vs ranged attacks and +10 strength vs Fortified units. I've found the latter almost useless. The Berserkers also can gain the Amphibious which works really well with Norway having no embarking penalties. Fourth, they upgrade to Musketmen which comes fairly early while Knights need to wait a lot longer to be upgraded to Tanks. So the switch from Berserkers to Musketmen is a lot seamless than upgrading from Knights to Tanks, you need to also build Horsemen and Swordmen to make up for this. And last, they are 1 gold cheaper to maintain than Knights. And on an extra note they come at the same time with the Pikemen which counters the cavalry units, Knights for example, pretty well.


The biggest problem I've had is the timing of Feudalism with their tech, but usually Monuments and a couple of well placed Campuses will do the trick.

 

[Siptah]

Oh I agree that they are a great unit, and I like playing them. Doing the pillaging wars with Norway is one of the most fun play styles available, especially on water maps (because of embarkation cost and longships). I just wanted to point out their weaker spots. You argumentation is good in my opinion. But lots of people have chariots from antiquity that they can easily upgrade to knights or an army of swordsmen from classical times. Maybe as Norway, if you can pull it off, it is way better to build no chariots and less warriors/swordsmen and get your warmongering going in medieval times with Berserkers. But if you start 'as usual' like with most other civs, it might be cheaper and easier just to upgrade your existing units. So the Berserker is easy to overlook/under appreciate.

 

[Mr. Shadows]

They're loads of fun to use in the scenario, but it's hard to get too excited about them in the base game.

 

[peurojoque]

In my opinion Norway is all about timing and efficiency. In the beginning I'd settle on the coast, build a few longships and get shipbuilding early. This way I can venture overseas and pillage safely, pushing through the civics and techs. In the meantime I'll focus my cities on faith, getting plenty of holy sites with stave churches. By the time I reach Theology I'll have plenty of faith to buy a bunch of berserkers and literally run amok. Overall their uniques add up pretty well.

Obviously, it's very situational and hard to pull off on higher difficulties, but with some luck it makes for a very fun game.

 

[Siptah]

but with some luck it makes for a very fun game.

That's the very thing. Norway and its pillage economy is one of the most fun strategies that I've played so far.

 

[Bro]

And one more for the Berserkers, they cost more to produce so the upgrade from them to Musketmen is cheaper!

I just had Berserkers with 2 Great Generals.. they move 6 tiles inside enemy borders! That was amazing!

 

[Pietato]

They suck. Knights are far superior, and cost the same. Denmark is rubbish.

 

[Jarms48]

I don't see the point of them. Compare them with knights and they're completely lacklustre. You can't timing push with them, they only get +4 movement in enemy terrain, they're already 8 strength weaker (15 weaker on the defence). Sure they have better promotions, but against a human player knights will beat them almost every time.

 

[Bro]

..they're already 8 strength weaker (15 weaker on the defence)..

So you actually totally dismissed their attack value when comparing their attack values but took their defense value into account when comparing their defense. Just wow!

 

[Jarms48]

So you actually totally dismissed their attack value when comparing their attack values but took their defense value into account when comparing their defense. Just wow!

Because a knight has 4 move permanently, meaning it can more reliably dictate the first engagement.

Even if we assume that the berserker attacks first it's still 1 strength weaker, leading to a stalemate, which means the knight next turn will be getting a victory then being 15 strength higher.

If you assume that the berserker is promoted you then would also have to assume that the knight is promoted, and in greater numbers (because timing pushes). A good player would spam heavy chariots before researching stirrups, then gold upgrade into knights. These heavy chariots could also already have promotions, and the player only requires 1 iron to upgrade.

 

[Bro]

Because a knight has 4 move permanently, meaning it can more reliably dictate the first engagement.

Bollocks. An attacking Berserker will have it's attack bonus and a defending Berserker will have it's defense penalty every time they attack or defend, no matter what. There is no 40 strength Berserker!

Even if we assume that the berserker attacks first it's still 1 strength weaker, leading to a stalemate, which means the knight next turn will be getting a victory then being 15 strength higher.

If you assume that the berserker is promoted you then would also have to assume that the knight is promoted, and in greater numbers (because timing pushes). A good player would spam heavy chariots before researching stirrups, then gold upgrade into knights. These heavy chariots could also already have promotions, and the player only requires 1 iron to upgrade.

I am assuming both are promoted. When the Knight is promoted he will have 48 strength against the Berserker defensive and attack wise, the Berserker will however have 40 defense and 54 attack against the Knight. 44 and 58 if you are using Oligarchy, which you should be.

It's clear that you are not looking at the facts here, you have simply made up your mind that the Knight is better and that's the end of the conversation, no need for any facts for you.

 

[Jarms48]

I am assuming both are promoted. When the Knight is promoted he will have 48 strength against the Berserker defensive and attack wise, the Berserker will however have 40 defense and 54 attack against the Knight. 44 and 58 if you are using Oligarchy, which you should be.

It's clear that you are not looking at the facts here, you have simply made up your mind that the Knight is better and that's the end of the conversation, no need for any facts for you.

How much multiplayer have you played? Timing pushes are one of the key strategies, by the time you research and finally build one berserker your opponent could have built 3 heavy chariots, researched stirrups, then upgraded them all to knights for 270 gold. What's that one berserker going to do against 3 knights? You slot in the Maneuver policy you can easily increase that to 4-5 heavy chariots by the time you build 1 berserker, with a knight upgrade cost of 360-450 gold (which you can save pretty easily). Not to mentions said knights may already have promotions as you could have been using those heavy chariots before.

Then as I said before, the knight always has 4 movement. If they attack your territory, or meet you in neutral territory, you're an arguably worse legion. If you manage to get into their territory, then you're an arguably worse knight. They have better upgrades than a knight, sure, but what's that matter when you both start at no promotions and they can outnumber you 3-1 or 5-1?

That's the main problem with the berserker, you can't upgrade to it, so you have to hard build it every time.

 

[Bobfregman]

Yeah the Beserker is neat and I've enjoyed playing with them but ultimately they just don't really match up to the knight. The ability of the knight to be upgraded from heavy chariots is a huge advantage. The Beserker requires a useless dead end technology to train and must be built from scratch. The defensive penalty incurred by the Beserker is substantial and the extra movement is not as versatile as the knights bade movement. A cool unit that is fun to use in the right situations but it really can't compare to the knights unambiguous versatility and power.

 

[Bro]

How much multiplayer have you played? Timing pushes are one of the key strategies, by the time you research and finally build one berserker your opponent could have built 3 heavy chariots, researched stirrups, then upgraded them all to knights for 270 gold. What's that one berserker going to do against 3 knights? You slot in the Maneuver policy you can easily increase that to 4-5 heavy chariots by the time you build 1 berserker, with a knight upgrade cost of 360-450 gold (which you can save pretty easily). Not to mentions said knights may already have promotions as you could have been using those heavy chariots before.

Then as I said before, the knight always has 4 movement. If they attack your territory, or meet you in neutral territory, you're an arguably worse legion. If you manage to get into their territory, then you're an arguably worse knight. They have better upgrades than a knight, sure, but what's that matter when you both start at no promotions and they can outnumber you 3-1 or 5-1?

That's the main problem with the berserker, you can't upgrade to it, so you have to hard build it every time.

I do not play multiplayer, I play deity. Comparing multiplayer to deity AI is pointless.

On my experience you get Berserkers build and done about maybe 10 turns later than you would have gotten Knights upgraded. You do not just start building them with one city, you set every city to push them out once you got a timed completion on both Military Tactics and Feudalism. When they are build, I'm getting 5 to 10 at about the same time. At the same time I usually also upgrade my Speamen to Pikemen, when used properly those usually counter the enemy Cavalry units, Knights for example.

And while Knights need Iron to be upgraded, Berserkers need nothing to be build. This can be a major issue, for example the last 2 deity games I've played I've not had Iron at all. And while we are speaking about upgrading units I'd like to remind you that your precious Knights upgrade to tanks. Berserkers upgrade to Musketmen. If you now take a look at how early do Tanks and Musketmen come into play, which would you say come earlier?

You should be always looking at the bigger picture, not just do a simple strength comparison of each unit.

 

[Victoria]

I like pillaging with knights

 

[Bobfregman]

I do not play multiplayer, I play deity. Comparing multiplayer to deity AI is pointless.

On my experience you get Berserkers build and done about maybe 10 turns later than you would have gotten Knights upgraded. You do not just start building them with one city, you set every city to push them out once you got a timed completion on both Military Tactics and Feudalism. When they are build, I'm getting 5 to 10 at about the same time. At the same time I usually also upgrade my Speamen to Pikemen, when used properly those usually counter the enemy Cavalry units, Knights for example.

And while Knights need Iron to be upgraded, Berserkers need nothing to be build. This can be a major issue, for example the last 2 deity games I've played I've not had Iron at all. And while we are speaking about upgrading units I'd like to remind you that your precious Knights upgrade to tanks. Berserkers upgrade to Musketmen. If you now take a look at how early do Tanks and Musketmen come into play, which would you say come earlier?

You should be always looking at the bigger picture, not just do a simple strength comparison of each unit.

You have spearmen around to upgrade? I'm happy you enjoy this strategy, the great thing about Civ is that there's tons of different ways you can play and still succeed. My personal experience is that knights work better in most situations, against the AI and especially online. When you're talking about units that may only have a 40 or so turn window of usefulness 10 turns matters quite a bit. But hey if you like playing this way then go for it, don't get worked up that others disagree.

 

[Bobfregman]

Also I agree we need to look at the bigger picture. While the level 1 promo for beserkers gives them a combat bonus in melee that helps them stack up to the knight we can't ignore the knights bonus against ranged attacks at level 1. Crossbowman are probably the most dangerous unit of the medieval era and at level 2, which is very common at this stage, have 52 ranged strength. A knight with barding will take 20 something damage from this attack while a Beserker without tortoise will take in the 60s. Even if you have tortoise the Beserker is still more than twice as vulnerable to crossbowmen. In fact in multiplayer I'd imagine archers are a pretty significant threat to beserkers though maybe not in single player since the AI still stinks with them.

 

[The googles do nothing]

For multi player what do you guys think should the bezerkers stats?
Base strength
Base movement
Attack buff
Defense (de)buff
Movement buff?

Should it be an upgrade and from what?
Cost?