Best Civ for Consistent Wins on Diety Pangea/Continents?

[MarigoldRan]

Aztec luxury bonuses only apply to the attack, not defense.

Also, Nubia's econ bonus is pretty strong. Turns out Nubia in a peaceful game is pretty powerful, too, what with +20% district production, potentially going up to +40%? As civ bonuses go that's probably top 10 already.

They're not a one-trick pony. And their "trick" is one damned good trick.

 

[Mr. Shadows]

however my first 3 games as Rome have been interesting, the problem is that bar the monument (which is fantastic) they still are a little touchy at the start, got swamped by barbs in one game and while I survived I was not in much of a state for a while afterward.

The early barb card is some help for Rome, but you don't really have anything special for surviving the two dozen turns. However, craftsmanship usually comes on turn 19 even if you can't get a builder out though, so there is a silver lining. Once you have things under control it isn't hard for Rome to catch up because each city comes with a monument, and because you're in a great position to clean house once you hit IW. My logic in picking Rome is based more on their ability to come back from a brutal start than it is their initial bonuses. I'm willing to admit that Eagle Warriors will give you a better chance of survival right at the beginning, so ultimately you're probably right about the Aztecs. The thing is when the AI puts you back on your heels you start to see the Eagles' window closing. If you can't capture builders and cities with them Monty looses a lot of his punch. That doesn't seem to happen very often though...

 

[Eliminator_Sr]

Aztec luxury bonuses only apply to the attack, not defense.

Is that true though? The description says 'combat strength' which to me implies it is both.

The thing is when the AI puts you back on your heels you start to see the Eagles' window closing. If you can't capture builders and cities with them Monty looses a lot of his punch. That doesn't seem to happen very often though...

I don't think this is really too much of an issue - I usually capture more builders on high difficulties because there are more units to kill. Once you capture a few early cities your luxury bonus will really start to kick in and It's pretty easy to transition directly to horsemen or just upgrade your Eagles in a pinch (though I rarely need to). You can also rush encampments with builders to get an early great general. I don't think the Aztecs really slow down at all because their other bonuses are so good too - it's not just Eagles. Nubia probably does have a short window in the classical where they will outperform the Aztecs but I don't think Rome does though they are very good too.

 

[MarigoldRan]

They changed it in a patch last I checked. You can test it.

 

[Chibisuke]

I'll just give my 2 cents. I have played numerous games as both Aztec and Nubia. They are both at the top tier obviously and a lot of fun. However, just being honest, I have never even come close to losing a game as Nubia. The Pitati Archer is immensely powerful. Two of those can hold off any early game rush by themselves. Nothing else is even needed. Two of those plus one warrior can take any city in early game. It is so easy to get them too. Rush Archery, build slingers, and kill the first thing you see. Doesn't matter if it is barbs, city state, or AI civ. Just kill. You will have archery very early. Then upgrade the slingers and crank out several more Pitati Archers. It is unstoppable.

I have played several games where if I was playing as any other civ, the AI would have been able to stop my rush due to their archers/walls. But Pitati archer can survive wall/archer attacks for at least 2 attacks and still keep firing. Regular archers can probably only survive 1 attack before having to retreat on deity. This gives a huge advantage. You can easily kill all defenders who are not inside the city and you can quickly tear down the walls. This means that the AI can't simply turtle against Nubia.

Like I said Aztec is great fun, but they don't have that level of offensive power. The Aztec warrior is very slow to build. Yes, you can usually defeat an AI rush by turtling with them, but that prevents you from going on offense. If I have 3 Pitati archers rather than 1 Aztec warrior, the 3rd archer can scout while the 2 defeat an incoming rush. My experience has been that Aztec requires a good start more than Nubia, because archers are cheap and have 3 movement right away, and Nubia gets 20% bonuses to districts without requiring anything else + bonus gold and production on different types of mines. Aztec needs more specific things such as close neighbor (for bonus workers) and many luxuries.

I do enjoy playing as Aztec and they are easy to win as, but I just don't agree that it is easier to play as Aztec than Nubia on deity. Nubia is for me the most powerful civ in the game due to how fast they snowball.

 

[eleven11]

I have played several games where if I was playing as any other civ, the AI would have been able to stop my rush due to their archers/walls. But Pitati archer can survive wall/archer attacks for at least 2 attacks and still keep firing. Regular archers can probably only survive 1 attack before having to retreat on deity. This gives a huge advantage. You can easily kill all defenders who are not inside the city and you can quickly tear down the walls...

....If I have 3 Pitati archers rather than 1 Aztec warrior, the 3rd archer can scout while the 2 defeat an incoming rush. My experience has been that Aztec requires a good start more than Nubia, because archers are cheap and have 3 movement right away, and Nubia gets 20% bonuses to districts without requiring anything else + bonus gold and production on different types of mines. Aztec needs more specific things such as close neighbor (for bonus workers) and many luxuries.

You hit on 3 distinct advantages to this Civ I also appreciate.

• To T80ish I actually like my Pitati getting hit by walls.. Double XP! I'll even move them into threat range of units or walls to soak up a hit if they are close to a promotion. Then move them out and heal.
• No real need to ever build a scout because a Pitati is like a Civ 5 scout that tripped the archer ruins upgrade. About the same production cost as a scout too!
• The district bonus is very nice. At a minimum a 20% discount, but with that 40% bonus means a very fast campus to speed along research (helps alot if your start lacks builder Eurekas). Or a fast encampment to get around strategic resource limitations for horses or swords. With that 40% bonus building a district is a 5 turn detour in the capital at most.

I want to post screens of this deity start I had last night. The Mongols settled 4 tiles from my capital on T5. I raced my first slinger over to a barb camp to get the Archery eureka with help from the warrior. While that was going on I chopped out 2 more slingers and a warrior. T16 DoW from Mongolia and I had 5 military on the board - 2 warriors and 3 slingers. I danced the slinger dance, taking hits and moving them around. I lost one but on T28 I had Pitati and the Mongols entered the dustbin of history about 25 turns later.

I don't think any other civ has this capability this early in the game.

 

[Victoria]

Two of those can hold off any early game rush by themselves.

Early game rush is before you get archery, especially if you go mining first as OP suggests.

 

[Fluphen Azine]

Early game rush is before you get archery, especially if you go mining first as OP suggests.

I think it is clear these guys either never get a real early game rush at them or they haven't played enough starts. The best way is like how you do your many starts/games playing up to turn 30 or 50 only and moving to the next game.

I have had several games recently where before turn 10 I was forward settled on both my NE and SW side by two very Aggressive Warmongers. You can't get to Archery that fast and even if you do you are not holding off some monster rush by 1 or 2 Civs and Horse Rushed Barbs which has happened to me before by scouting the wrong way with my warrior. with only two P. Archers and a Warrior. I guess it is possible but very difficult.

Getting rushed by Horse Barbs and 1 Civ is a nightmare... I have survived it but it takes some serious time setting you far behind... you will still win if you survive the rush but your win time will be slower.

I would rather have the Aztecs and a couple Eagle Warriors... my last early defense had 31 strength capital.

I agree both Civs are very strong and I think it might come down to preference .

I have literally had games where I was forward settled by 3 Civs and a few Barb Camps nearby on Deity/Pang/All Standard. This usually happens when I gamble on some bad Build Order as well destroying any hopes of winning.

If I play a specific way though on Deity I haven't lost no matter what Civ I play but this entails Army First.

 

[Victoria]

I agree both Civs are very strong and I think it might come down to preference

Yes, let’s put it down to preference. Better and best should be banned words

 

[eleven11]

So let's walk back to going Animal Husbandry -> Archery. If I go slinger as my first build there is an above 50/50 chance I get the eureka for Archery in the next 10 turns. That puts my first Pitati under 20 turns. Effectively, I can hold off an T20 AI rush with 2 Pitati and the starting warrior. The key is to chew through their warriors before the Archers start arriving. And this set up could be available as early as T20-22

I think OPs suggestion on always taking mining first is a bit off. I most likely would have been better off bee-lining Archery in my Mongolia example above then taking mining and a builder second to chop more out later on. Because I did mining first, my Pitati were delayed 8-10 turns which was almost lethal. But get 2 Pitati out ASAP and you will most likely survive most circumstances.

The thing is though, Nubia seems to have a start bias that generally puts them farther away from other civs. And I've played a ton of starts. The first 70-80 turns of this game is the most exciting for me.

 

[Victoria]

So let's walk back to going Animal Husbandry -> Archery.

yes... one suspect OP was enthusiastic to talk about his new strategy and perhaps did not appreciate its a very experienced forum.
I agree the rush is better all round than the chop, the real issue here for me... and has been all along is when people talk about early rush its T10-15 when you are really crippled, not T20 so you need to hold them off with slingers. Agreed it is possible to do so most of the time but as @Fluphen Azine says, it is not that rare you get taken by barbs and a civ very early.
Whatever we do the comparison is v close and we could say they are tied and down to preference but I just keep having certain memories come across my brain

1. having slingers from any civ I am playing being surrounded with nowhere to run while my only decent unit, a warrior is worn down.
2. Having my eagle promote for the first time sitting on jungle hills then healing to full health after every attack

Such images make me biased and I know the human brain is worse than its reputation. I try to be objective. I think the issue is I have had too many slinger armies die in this way and now tend to save my money before T15 in case I need to buy a warrior (if I can get that much)

To clarify I play at least 1 game to T100 per day but often play additional starts to T30 or 50 mainly because I am trying to understand just how important culture is in various circumstances. I do get beaten up from time to time, especially if I do some stupid first build like a monument.

 

[eleven11]

Agree that it's preference because defeating the early rush also has an opportunity cost for how long the recovery takes using a particular Civ. The benefits are slim for being a victim of an early rush..but both Aztecs and Nubia do benefit unlike a lot of civs. For Aztecs, the benefit is free builders. For Nubia, it's Rank 2-3 Pitati. Aztecs can quickly catch up on eurekas and districts. Nubia plays on it's strengths with upgraded Pitati and offensive conquest... and a few cheap strategic districts.

 

[Chibisuke]

As far as the term "early game rush," yes it is possible to get rushed by turn 10-14 but it is incredibly rare. If you get rushed that early by 5 or 6 AI warriors your chances of survival are pretty low no matter which Civ you are playing (especially if you have sent your initial warrior scouting, which most people are going to do). Between 15 - 20 if you have been building slingers, you should have enough of them to have already killed something with a slinger and you can usually have Archery by turn 18 give or take (unless you found a Science city state, in which case you might have it faster). Once you have archery, if you have managed your money properly, you have at least 2 Pitati archers and are in very strong position.

So yea, if you got rushed by turn 12 and were playing Aztec, maybe you survive IF you keep your initial warrior in your capital and build another warrior. (So no scouting, no goodie huts, no discoveries, just turtle right from the start. Highly inefficient strategy.) Even then, you might not survive because AI is much more deadly now with their rushes. They will likely ignore your 2nd warrior and just slam all their units against your city until it falls. Plus, if they rush that early, it is likely they will keep sending an endless stream of units until either your defenses are strong enough to stop them or they take over your capital. Even if you manage to hold them off with Aztec warriors, your growth has been devastated so badly that recovering is going to be difficult.

So I don't think it is useful to focus on a turn 10-14 rush. That is going to ruin almost any game unless you got extreme luck with chocolate/gems and some commercial city states and can just purchase an army right from the start. Vast majority of early game rushes are going to be around turns 20 - 30.

 

[Fluphen Azine]

10-14 turn early rush is extremely rare huh? I would like to hear what you consider extremely rare... my idea would be less than one percent. I don't know how many Pang Map games you are playing but they are not extremely rare. Getting Horse Barb Rushed or just Barbed Rushed along side of another AI happens many times. Go back and watch a few of PotatoMcWhiskey Deity games where he is getting rolled over and over again. Some of his games before turn 20. I don't exactly agree with his B.O.s and strategy but the point is that early rushes happen all the time on Deity Pangaea. Not only that but You will have many games where you get boxed in by a Civ or Two very fast. If you are re-rolling or re-rolling a better start you will not have this problem as often but when you play the really bad starts you will find more problems arise than you are letting on to. You sound like some of the players who say that you can go builder/settler in most Deity Games with very low chance of getting rushed. I tried that for a day playing up to turn 40 or so each game and it was a nightmare going builder/settler strategy.

Either way though... it obviously doesn't happen to you. I just have bad rolls when I play and I always scout in the wrong direction. If you want to take the stance that Nubia is better for you compared to the Aztecs and that you can beat back any rush with 2 P. Archers and a Warrior that is fine. This whole thread is mostly subjective in my opinion. My game play or style is better suited with the Aztecs compared to Nubia. Your style is the other way around.

 

[Victoria]

but they are not extremely rare.

My thoughts exactly... incredibly rare they are not, otherwise people would not complain so.
Builder/settler is a risky approach only suited to certain situations or rerolling for optimal play games. It's more accurate to say builder approach as blindly going settler after is self defeating.

 

[Mr. Shadows]

I've been getting attacked early more often than not. By the time you have a few archers you're more or less safe, but I frequently find myself defending my cap with 2 warriors and a slinger. In a lot of games that's all I have time to build before the attack comes. I can usually fight them off with that, but it's always touch and go. The dangerous time is while you're getting to archery. Eagle Warriors make that stretch a lot safer, pitatis don't come until after it's over. Nubia is one of the strongest Civs but they don't have anything for the first dozen turns or so. I don't think it's all that subjective...

 

[Chibisuke]

You are conflating two things. Barb rush and AI civ rush. Barb rush is nothing. I can beat back a Barb rush while still moving forward with my agenda because Barbs can't capture the capital. I have done this countless times no problem. The only time a Barb rush is a problem is if you get hit by 2 at once in that time frame (which will make it almost impossible to kill them all before you need to start doing other things - if only one barb camp is attacking my capital, I am almost certainly going to kill them all before it is necessary). That has happened a few times, but again, it is relatively rare. Maybe 5 - 10% of the time in my opinion. But once again, if you get rushed by 2 barb camps at turn 10-14 it doesn't matter which civ you are playing with. You are going to be crippled with your development. Playing as Aztec is not going to magically fix that vs Nubia.

If you get hit by a Barb rush and an AI civ attacks, that is actually usually a win for you. Barbs will attack ANY units that are within range of them. Thus, if AI civ attacks you while Barbs are near your city, the Barbs will act as a bonus defense force and will attack the AI civ units. Might even kill them, but will certianly weaken them enough for you to finish them off. (Also, note that the AI Civs will prioritize killing Barbs over almost anything. I have seen the AI civ make some very stupid decisions in the past in order to attack a Barb unit, so the Barbs will likely be a very useful distraction in addition to killing the AI civ units.) Plus, the way that Barbs work means that they will chase after retreating AI civ units. So if AI civ declared war and has units in your area, and then they get damaged by Barbs and try to run away, the Barbs will leave your city alone and chase them back to their city!! This is a win for you!

The only way this is a loss is if the AI civ times their attack so perfectly that they attack your capital after you have killed all the Barbs, while your city is still heavily damaged, and while you somehow did not build an army to kill the Barbs. We might be talking about a 2 to 3 turn window assuming you decided to kill all the barbs with one or 2 units. I don't know that that has ever happened to me.

So I don't think you should be counting Barb + AI civ rush as one of the problems, because most of the time that combination is not a problem. And a single Barb camp rush is usually something that can be taken care of fairly easily. The only way it is a serious problem is if you get rushed by 2 Barb camps at once or an AI civ attacks you by itself with a big group of warriors, all between tuns 10 - 14, and if that happens you are basically screwed no matter which Civ you are playing.

 

[Victoria]

Barbs can't capture the capital.

This is in fact incorrect!
I have lost 2 capitals to barbs, it is rare but happens, one suspects its accidental because barbs will reduce your cap to 0 but I think sometimes they get carried away or assessment is based on averages. I play an awful lot of games

and I do count barb +civ rushes. They do happen

What you seem to be implying is they are so rare you should not bother but its about the spirit of the thread title.

 

[eleven11]

Most of the time non-military -> non-military build orders are suicide on Deity. Definitely need a 2nd military unit on the board immediately. Warrior -> anything can definitely work ok though. Military first is obvious for protection but it also gives you a chance to catch a late CS bonus, ruin, take out multiple barb camps, turn away scouts, and cut through fog for awareness. I think the most important thing to immediately do on Deity is to carve out a 9-10 tile radius from the capital. If an AI settles in that range then an early rush is inevitable.

I've experimented a lot trying to fit monuments in earlier and I just can't reliably do it prior to the 4th build without gambling my survival.

I agree with @Chibisuke with his point on barb rushes.. they suck and can derail things but the AI rushes typically are much more dangerous. I think the exception is a barb horserush.. if you aren't prepared those can derail your first 35-40 turns and then you are basically sunk. I've had many games where a T20 AI rush met a T15 Barb rush and the results are awesome

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Pretty hard to argue against Aztecs since eagle warriors just shut down the most dangerous early stuff...and the benefits after getting past this most threatening part of the game remain excellent. Strong at your most vulnerable time + still competitive forever after that is tough to beat.

All of these civs are generally good. I find it amusing that America, while typically not considered a strong civ, is actually pretty consistent. After Aztec it's one of the better civs at holding off super early aggression (American warriors fortified in defensive terrain are ruinous to early AI warrior spam) and will often still receive the benefit against an opponent or two on offense.