Best CIV that can FULLY IGNORE Religion

[reddishrecue]

So pretty much the piety tree only has good is its reformation belief.

 

[Dushku]

So pretty much the piety tree only has good is its reformation belief.

I disagree. Organized Religion is good. Assuming 4 city tradition, it increases your faith generation by 67% before Grand Temple. Theocracy is like taking the Commerce opener times the number of cities you have. Some Piety has its uses.

I just published a video about achieving a cultural victory with using world wonders. The Piety tree allowed me to produce quite a lot of tourism. It was such an integral part of the strategy that I finished the Piety tree ahead of finishing Rationalism.

 

[consentient]

Poland are the best civ, hands down, and they can do many interesting things ignoring religion completely. They can play a Science or Culture game and end up with more social policies to make those victories easier and quicker (including opening Rationalism when they hit the Renaissance, every time). Or they can go Full Honor and beeline the military techs they want to win with (usually Cannons or Artillery) and fill Commerce before the AI has 8 policies and go on an unstoppable warpath.

Korea, Persia, Arabia, Babylon...all the top civs can safely ignore religion, and, when going for a DomV, I would argue that it's MUCH BETTER to ignore it altogether.

In my last game, as in most of my games, I went Honor-Commerce and by the time I need to faith buy anything, I've accumulated a ton of it without having to build a single religious building or unit.

 

[reddishrecue]

I disagree. Organized Religion is good. Assuming 4 city tradition, it increases your faith generation by 67% before Grand Temple. Theocracy is like taking the Commerce opener times the number of cities you have. Some Piety has its uses.

I just published a video about achieving a cultural victory with using world wonders. The Piety tree allowed me to produce quite a lot of tourism. It was such an integral part of the strategy that I finished the Piety tree ahead of finishing Rationalism.

Yeah I agree that piety tree has its other good qualities such as organized religion or even theocracy which gives you more gold per temple. Piety is a well built faith building machine if used correctly.

 

[CraigMak]

I wouldn't really recommend fully ignoring religion because the bonuses can be quite strong. Especially if you can get the good stuff like Tithe, Religious Community, Pagodas etc.. You can't go wrong with getting extra gold, hammers or happiness.

Civs that would fair best without a religion would be ones that already have a happiness bonus like Egypt or Persia. Or a civ like Greece since they will get loads of bonus stuff from CS anyways.

Then there's civs like Babylon, Poland, Korea, Inca... which can make due on their own merit simply because they are very overpowered.

I would say that strong warmonger civs probably want a religion because they will be taking over cities and will therefor need some extra happiness bonuses. Although religion is of course not required to kill the world but it will definitely help smooth out the rough patches.

 

[KrikkitTwo]

So its either invest in faith heavily or go for super quick early domination? It seems brave new world made religion or the faith resource a MUST. Which is ok?

I mean Science is a must, culture is a must, faith is a must, happiness is a must.

so gold and tourism are not superbly vital. It just more directions to spread out resources. Thats all I'm debating.

Also maybe Sweden? Fighting isn't productive for faith - Thus Sweden can gift the extra great generals.

You don't have to invest in faith heavily.... if you are only going for Great Persons and someone else's religion, you don't need to invest in faith before Medival /Renaissance Era.

gold is a must, tourism is a must (for a post industrial game)

You don't have to invest in ANY of these resources heavily(except maybe science)... but you do need to invest Something into them to play an effective game.*

*except Tourism and Faith in an early domination game.
*also Effective game... it is possible with some civs (as mentioned above) to handicap yourself and not invest anything into X and still win (for some xs... playing a "no Rationalism/no science buildings/improvements" game would probably be impossible on Deity..but "No Piety, no religious buildings" would definitely be possible...but a challenge)

 

[Sclb]

tourism is a must (for a post industrial game)

This is not true at all. Most efficient strategies for non-CV VC actually depends on generating 0 tourism since you never use GW or GA for their great works. Especially on deity, the tourism generated from AI is so large that it is difficult to offset even if you're going for CV until very late. In most non CV peaceful games, the only tourism I have at the end is actually 0.

Tourism from religion is a valid strategy with the piety SS play, but it's also difficult to pull off correctly. If done, it is the fastest peaceful CV strategy.

 

[Redaxe]

Well I'd argue that Egypt fits into this category easily.

They get a maintenance free Temple which also provides +2 happiness. Even if you don't get a religion from it that is an extra +2 gold and +2 happiness per city. Think of that as having both Church Property and Religious Centre. Not bad at all!
Essentially the UB has the power of both a founder and a follower belief.

Than there is the UA which is +20% production towards Wonders. This gives you a better chance of getting Wonders that have special benefits that can compensate for not having a religion. It's a much stronger form of 'Monument to the Gods'.

So essentially Egypt gives your civ 3 religious beliefs already. Compare that to Byzantium which gives you 1 extra religious belief..... There really is no comparison here at all.

 

[reddishrecue]

This is not true at all. Most efficient strategies for non-CV VC actually depends on generating 0 tourism since you never use GW or GA for their great works. Especially on deity, the tourism generated from AI is so large that it is difficult to offset even if you're going for CV until very late. In most non CV peaceful games, the only tourism I have at the end is actually 0.

Tourism from religion is a valid strategy with the piety SS play, but it's also difficult to pull off correctly. If done, it is the fastest peaceful CV strategy.

Liberty with piety, if done right, can do good and even better than tradition. Liberty could start slow at first but eventually becomes better than tradition if left alone, as a religious civilization, with many religious buildings in many cities and with sacred sites.

 

[Dushku]

Mmm... Burial Tombs is why Egypt is easily my favorite civ in the game. Though I do also like the Celts since they can win the religion game without even trying.

 

[Sclb]

Liberty with piety, if done right, can do good and even better than tradition. Liberty could start slow at first but eventually becomes better than tradition if left alone, as a religious civilization, with many religious buildings in many cities and with sacred sites.

You've just described the wide piety SS CV strat. Difficult to pull off on higher difficulty but extremely effective. I might try it in my next immortal game. Deity is just too hard for this.

 

[beetle]

Though I do also like the Celts since they can win the religion game without even trying.

I struggle to found when playing the Celts! Sure, getting a pantheon is quick and easy, but then what? The faith from forest is too meager to count on for founding, and forest-oriented pantheons have no faith. So what do you do to win the religion game without even trying?

 

[Matthew.]

You must not be settling quick enough. Assuming your expansion spots have some forest tiles, you should get the equivalent faith of Stonehenge or a delayed faith natural wonder. It is less reliable on Deity, but so are most strategies.

There is also a chance that a start just doesn't go well, but it is no where near the inconsistency of Netherlands (no marsh/floodplains), Iroquois (needing WAY more forest to be beneficial), Byzantium (at least Celts can use their faith on adopted religions or great people), Spain, etc. etc.

Anyway, I am a bit mixed on the OP. In some ways I don't think religion is important at all. You can adopt religions easily and most of the time AI's will choose happiness beliefs, so you at least get that. And like Krikkit said, as long as you get faith eventually, you will still have plenty for great people post-industrial.

At the same time, ever since BNW, I think religion is more important than ever for any kind of wide play. The gold and happiness is crucial to competing with tall empires. You can still adopt religions, of course, but the momentum from getting your own early on is important when you are settling your initial cities--adopting a religion 50+ turns later is nice, but a bit late for when you needed it. And of course you miss out on founders, which has often been the number one reason for staying net positive gpt in most of my wide games.

In the end I suppose it comes down to what your goals are for a game. Some strategies and Civs can ignore religion more easily than others.

 

[reddishrecue]

Religion could be simple as
Religion=faith

but at least even the smallest amount of faith could lead to a religious building purchase eventually depending on what you're pursuing.

 

[consentient]

You must not be settling quick enough. Assuming your expansion spots have some forest tiles, you should get the equivalent faith of Stonehenge or a delayed faith natural wonder. It is less reliable on Deity, but so are most strategies.

There is also a chance that a start just doesn't go well, but it is no where near the inconsistency of Netherlands (no marsh/floodplains), Iroquois (needing WAY more forest to be beneficial), Byzantium (at least Celts can use their faith on adopted religions or great people), Spain, etc. etc.

In over 4000 hours of Civ 5 BNW, I have NEVER seen a map where there were 4 decent city locations with forest close to the spawn location. Saying that Celts are better than the Iroquois and Byzantium is not much praise, really. And yes, Polder starts are as rare as rocking-horse droppings, but the Dutch are no worse than the Celts because they have a good UA.

The fact is that there are no civs that make it 'easy to win the religion game' on Deity. Whether you get to found or not, whether your religion will take hold in the area around your territory, and whether or not you will be able to 'win the religion game' depends entirely on the AI. If 5 civs go full Piety (as is very common since a recent patch), you can forget about it, even if you get lucky. However, if 3 go Honor, 3 Liberty and 1 Tradition, you have a decent shout...provided of course that you had a pantheon to start with, and had decent production so that building Shrines wasn't a waste of hammers, etc. etc.

Ignoring religion completely and crossing your fingers that Harun or Cathy will give you JE is the best strategy these days.

At the same time, ever since BNW, I think religion is more important than ever for any kind of wide play.

If you mean Peaceful Wide, then maybe. But conquest > founding any day of the week and twice on Saturdays.

 

[Dushku]

I struggle to found when playing the Celts! Sure, getting a pantheon is quick and easy, but then what? The faith from forest is too meager to count on for founding, and forest-oriented pantheons have no faith. So what do you do to win the religion game without even trying?

One of my favorite Civ 5 random maps of all time (only King):

http://www.mediafire.com/download/ecwkgmp2ekytzo7/celts.7z

It's such a perfect Liberty map that I actually used it to make a video back when I was still pretty new to the game:

https://youtu.be/U9ZeSAtta40

The large faith intake made getting an enhancer belief before others founded a religion easy. Which means double buildings. Which means MORE faith intake, and easy happiness. I was able to play SO wide on that map it was absolutely ridiculous.

So I guess my answer to your question would be that happiness is a mechanic that doesn't bind them like it does other civs. You could point to Ceilidh Hall and say that's responsible, but it's very easy for your happiness to dip well before that if you're playing wide and expanding rapidly.

 

[beetle]

The fact is that there are no civs that make it 'easy to win the religion game' on Deity. Whether you get to found or not, whether your religion will take hold in the area around your territory, and whether or not you will be able to 'win the religion game' depends entirely on the AI.

I agree with this. That said, (1) it is quite easy and reliable to get a pantheon, and (2) if you found, it is easy to get and keep your religion in your core cities.

Ignoring religion completely and crossing your fingers that Harun or Cathy will give you JE is the best strategy these days.

I respectfully disagree on this point, see points (1) and (2) above.

But conquest > founding any day of the week and twice on Saturdays.

I agree with this point too, but founding has very little opportunity cost: 1 early archer and one GP. And maybe the GP pays for itself.

 

[Matthew.]

In over 4000 hours of Civ 5 BNW

I have about 3,500 and I've had plenty of maps with decent city spots near forests.

Saying that Celts are better than the Iroquois and Byzantium is not much praise, really.

Of course it isn't. The point is more that some people have a tendency to look at things as all or nothing. It is either Poland or it is not Poland, nothing else applies. I could understand the reasoning if you have, indeed, not had a single decent Celts map after 4,000 hours... but... well, I really don't believe that. Sounds more like being contrary for the sake of being contrary. The inconsistency is no where near as high as many other Civs. Yes, it is not Poland.

The fact is that there are no civs that make it 'easy to win the religion game' on Deity.

Nope. I already mentioned a lot of strategies take a hit on Deity. So Celts can win the religion game easy on 7 of the 8 difficulties, and have extra support for it on Deity.

The fact is, the original comment was from Dushku, who appears to play around King level. You are bordering on strawman. Unless I missed something, I don't see it mentioned anywhere that discussion was Deity-only. IIRC Beetle plays Immortal and attempts Deity often, so maybe that is where the discussion branched off (sorry if I'm mistakened here Beetle, haven't been around forums in a while).

If you mean Peaceful Wide, then maybe. But conquest > founding any day of the week and twice on Saturdays.

Yes, that is what I meant. I think wide vs. tall was more or less balanced in G&K, but the addition of the tech cost penalty means growing and developing cities is more important to keep up and is only practical with religion support. The gold from founders applies, even though it doesn't directly correlate with food. Getting up food, science, and happiness buildings takes a toll on gpt, and you cannot completely ignore military as easily when playing wide. Even if you can only get religion on your own cities, it is enough to at least break even until mid-game when gold problems ease up.

I'd estimate about 80% of my games are wide play. Probably closer to 90% in recent months. There is a very clear difference in games where I can secure a religion, and games where I cannot.

Luckily on Deity, where religion is indeed "pray and hope RNG goes your way", there are other aspects that help bridge the gap. Workers are more abundant to steal, faster founded religions = faster adopting religions, AI's hook up luxuries faster (and have more from settling more cities) so gpt deals are more common, etc. The larger challenge for me on Deity is finding time to get cities down, since Deity AI's love to forward settle on me.

 

[lindsay40k]

Huns. Their apogee comes about before Religion really plays a major role.

Or Mongols. It's nice to muck around with Holy Warriors, but you don't want to prioritise Theology over Chivalry, or Faith buildings over building Stables and Chariots to upgrade.

Or Zulus. As above, but with Civil Service and levelling up Warriors and Spearmen to upgrade.

Or even Assyria.

I mean, all of the above probably will found a religion through conquest, and if you start with two Marble and three Stone you should always have a crack at getting Stone Circles. But generally, they want to be focussing on finding someone to wallop.

 

[lindsay40k]

So pretty much the piety tree only has good is its reformation belief.

If you've got solid Faith production and Interfaith Dialogue, Mosque of Djenne + 20% off Missionaries makes your neighbour's Holy City into a tech piñata.