Best Expansive Leader

Best Expansive Leader


  • Total voters
    154
I'd far from call Mysticism weak for Pacal II.
Think about this. He's got a good early barb defender, fast workers, fast granaries. I'd say he's honestly a good leader for an early religion.

Like a lot of things, this is level dependent. I'm an Immortal guy so early religions are worse than useless to me. ;)

Even if I did think an early religion was worth getting, I don't think I could justify delaying food techs for one.

Of late I've been wondering if Mysticism might not be the worst starting tech after all. Monuments are probably good enough to make it slightly better than Hunting. This argument doesn't apply so much to Pacal though, as he needs Hunting for his UU.
 
ChWashington: Charismatic goes well with expansion to get very highly populated cities. Agrictulure and fishing means food is usually not an issue at first so I can work towards military/economy from the get go. Going refridgeration after Biology/Electrcity for an earlier Mall is not a bad deal and make good trade fodder. He is also the most efficient in terms of Corps as the Mall has the highest extra gold percentage bonus (20%) of all UBs. Charismatic and the extra happiness with teh Mall means less dependence on late game civics for happiness. Being Charismatic means 2 free promotion for each drydock city, thus a stronger navy which has big advantages with the Navy Seal (which is the only UB besides the fast worker NOT to expire) while the extra health of expansive compensates for the unhealthiness in those drydock cities.

That 20% extra gold frequently comes out as less than 10%, due to the slider. You almost never need the mall happiness if you're charismatic anyway. It's a good building that would be a decent UB if it came out about 60 turns earlier. The navy seal is very late and it isn't much better than a vanilla marine.

Bismark: I wonderspam with Berlin while the other cities grow very fast with discounted graneries. I can usually nail the Great Wall and Pyramids with Bismark, and usually Stonhenge if I do not have to side track too much towards early military.

I appreciate his wonder chops without having to worry about health, but the lack of unique stuff is too much of a setback.

Both Washington and Bismark start much stronger earlier in the game rather than waiting for construction. The later in the game they have advantages with the UBs (I still like the Assembly Plant) and in the American case the UU.

The assembly plant?! Are you trolling? :mischief:

As far as Pacal you bring up an interesting early strategy I never considered, the only problem is you people have nothing to eat that early except rocks.

I have to confess, I love it when Pacal opens with flood plains. ;) An oasis is especially nice, if you're into early religion. Without natural 3 food tiles, though, the Stonehenge rush is not worth trying.
 
Like a lot of things, this is level dependent. I'm an Immortal guy so early religions are worse than useless to me. ;)

Even if I did think an early religion was worth getting, I don't think I could justify delaying food techs for one.

Of late I've been wondering if Mysticism might not be the worst starting tech after all. Monuments are probably good enough to make it slightly better than Hunting. This argument doesn't apply so much to Pacal though, as he needs Hunting for his UU.

If I had to pick the worst starting tech, it'd probably be Hunting. You don't want to be -that- close to camp resources in my experience in your first city.
I play on noble, so an early religion is nice at times with -some- civs, and monuments are very, very nice for non cre leaders.
Mining, agriculture, and fishing are obviously nice.
The Wheel... depends.
 
If I had to pick the worst starting tech, it'd probably be Hunting. You don't want to be -that- close to camp resources in my experience in your first city.
I play on noble, so an early religion is nice at times with -some- civs, and monuments are very, very nice for non cre leaders.
Mining, agriculture, and fishing are obviously nice.
The Wheel... depends.

As I moved up in difficulty, I have appreciated hunting more and more. The scout explores twices as much terrain and nails all goody huts. Being one tech from archery is a big boon in my books. I still prefer agriculture and fishing more, but hunting is ahead of mining/wheel/mystcism
 
As I moved up in difficulty, I have appreciated hunting more and more. The scout explores twices as much terrain and nails all goody huts. Being one tech from archery is a big boon in my books. I still prefer agriculture and fishing more, but hunting is ahead of mining/wheel/mystcism

I always turn goody huts off, personally. I had too many incidents where I got a lot of free techs, really turned me off of 'em. However, I do agree scouts are great for exploration.

I think my personal favorite starting tech combo may be either Agriculture/Mining, which I believe belongs only to China.
 
@ Higher Game

The Mall applies a full 20% to Corporate HQs (as I said, Washington's specialty) and shrines (which any charismatic tyrant should be capturing!) and generally GW runs a higher science slider due to the Mall. The Navy seals heals while moving the armada arround (ready for the next coastal city) and has a first strike, combined with the free amphibious of the marine and the added strength of drydock promoted navy still makes the Americans the best at attackign another continent.

No seroiusly, I like the Assembly plant as it's cheap with coal and you get a few extra engineer spots giving Germany a faster production base and potentially more hammers. Not the best UB, but not the worse to me. Perhaps it's my specific play style but I have had my best games with Bismark and he has been the leader I go to when finally beating a difficulty (I have won more Immortal games with him than any other).
 
I always turn goody huts off, personally. I had too many incidents where I got a lot of free techs, really turned me off of 'em. However, I do agree scouts are great for exploration.

I think my personal favorite starting tech combo may be either Agriculture/Mining, which I believe belongs only to China.

I always felt turning huts off helps the AI as they generally have more scouts/archers/warriors than the human. HAving Julius pop BW right next to you is not exactly fun, nor easy.
 
The Mall applies a full 20% to Corporate HQs (as I said, Washington's specialty) and shrines (which any charismatic tyrant should be capturing!) and generally GW runs a higher science slider due to the Mall.

It's still peanuts. So, your corporate city gets 220% instead of 200%. Compare that to a ziggurat, cothon, mint, or even the feitoria (yes, I went there). It just doesn't pay much considering how late it appears.

The Navy seals heals while moving the armada arround (ready for the next coastal city) and has a first strike, combined with the free amphibious of the marine and the added strength of drydock promoted navy still makes the Americans the best at attackign another continent.

Nukes make these operations much easier, you know. The slightly faster healing and first strikes might only save you a couple turns.

No seroiusly, I like the Assembly plant as it's cheap with coal and you get a few extra engineer spots giving Germany a faster production base and potentially more hammers. Not the best UB, but not the worse to me. Perhaps it's my specific play style but I have had my best games with Bismark and he has been the leader I go to when finally beating a difficulty (I have won more Immortal games with him than any other).

You must have an absolutely ridiculous amount of health resources to make assembly plants for the engineer slots. If you want to use freddy for philosophical engineers, you need ridiculous +2. :p

Again, it saves you a couple turns. It's very soft for a UB.
 
The only real candidates in this poll are Mehmed, Pacal, and Shaka. There aren't a lot of terrible candidates in there, but these 3 are standouts.

Mehmed: Solid UB that is available early in the game, solid UU though a bit hard to use on the highest difficulties. Trait combo allows for a pretty fast opening though since you can afford some economic abuse even moreso than most alternatives.

Pacal: Boring but effective. He carries easy anti-barb and a solid :) UB.

Shaka: Situational but good UU, however Shaka carries the best UB on this list while getting a trait discount on it. Shaka's openings are very fast and his starting techs are acceptable. While slightly more expensive, impi hit archers in cities only a little worse than war chariots, which makes them usable. The UB is always usable and available right away...giving the Zulu a balance of early offense and economy.

Mall :) can be relevant to surprising degrees sometimes, but the USA and German uniques are still terrible overall (with Germany's being slightly worse).
 
Well, we can agree to disagree then. I still think the mall is an above average UB (remember the extra happiness for the three modern wonders) and the Seal is a great intercontinental assault unit providing you want to keep your new lands intact. If you looking to simply raze the cities, nukes are a better option.

I have no idea what you talking about with the assembly plants. German UB are cheaper to build if you have coal and offer more engineer slots than a regular factory. It's not unuaual for me to be running 5 engineers under representation in several cities post Biology, and there is always environemntalism until you have the health infrastructure up and going.

I think why everyone hates the German and American UUs and UBs are because they come so late in the game.
 
I think why everyone hates the German and American UUs and UBs are because they come so late in the game.

This.
Most Civ players, at least the ones that post on this subforum, tend to be rushers. That's also why I never play Civ4 online, because it's like Starcraft all over again. "Screw playing the game, I'm gonna zerg rush!"

The only late game civ I'm not too fond of still is Tokugawa, but that's because he feels insanely hard to -get- to the eras in which he doesn't suck.
 
I think why everyone hates the German and American UUs and UBs are because they come so late in the game.

I would take an assembly plant over stock factory, but its value-over-base combined with its late-game aspect still makes it one of if not the worst UBs in the game.

Shaving that amount of hammers in the late game is not terribly impressive. Given how things snowball and the fact that coal is not GUARANTEED, the average expected return from hammer savings from buildings like the zig or sac altar are probably better...but that's not even the primary draw of either!

For production, you do not want to be running engineer specs unless your land is pretty bad or you have a HUGE city (which is not super practical for most of the game)

We're talking what, turn 200+, probably 250+ for most people until you see any benefit from assembly plant at all, and when we do see it the usefulness is marginal. I often hate on buildings like the feitoria, but even that thing is better than the assembly plant :/.

Dun is more volatile. In situations where it helps, it could well help a lot (guerrilla II instead of CG I or G I on border hill cities vs early aggression wouldn't hurt, and slapping it on gunpowder later isn't useless), while in other games it won't give you ANYTHING. Then again, even UBs buildings like the dike, cothon, citadel, and research institute can be 100% useless depending on the map/how the game goes, so what we're really looking at here is average expected returns.

We're also a lot more interested in returns that happen before the game is decided. The assembly plant has a decent chance of having the game decided before it is available, and even when that is not the case the returns are so marginal that it's doubtful it has a significant impact on the outcome.

Most Civ players, at least the ones that post on this subforum, tend to be rushers. That's also why I never play Civ4 online, because it's like Starcraft all over again. "Screw playing the game, I'm gonna zerg rush!"

Zergling rushes in starcraft are 100% valid parts of the game. Elite players and even the tier below that do not lose to traditional zergling rushes, by the way, which is why I get lols from 6-pooling people. Your meta-game asplode, try some adaptation!

More to the civ point, the reason earlier uniques are favored is not solely related to rushes. There is a compounding impact from earlier benefits...and while it's difficult to quantify precisely every player who has any semblance of high-level skill at this game knows its there. Sometimes rushes are the reason to favor early UUs, but UUs that simply guarantee your early survival or UBs that provide material benefits 100's of turns before the woofer UBs you're talking about also fall under the category of "early, compounding advantages".
 
All we need now is a 'Best 'Best trait leader poll' poll'.

I agree, take the top vote getters in each survey and put them together. I am already confued by the Hatty love in the first one, yet she got much less appreciation in SPI, only to see average Perciles do poor in the CRE and excell in PHI.

Then again I have a headache, how much longer until CiV?
 
Mad said:
Now now, save the best for last

Actually, I think the Org leaders (who I voted for in every poll) are the toughest to pick from. Is it Darius or Mehmed or Asoka? Or none of the above? I may have to scratch my head a bit if an ORG poll pops up.
 
I agree, take the top vote getters in each survey and put them together. I am already confued by the Hatty love in the first one, yet she got much less appreciation in SPI, only to see average Perciles do poor in the CRE and excell in PHI.

Then again I have a headache, how much longer until CiV?

I figured I'd start up a "Best of the Best" poll after all the trait polls are done.
Take one poll of the winners of the previous poll, and then maybe do a "Worst of the Worst" with the people that got only 1 or 0 votes (Brennus vs Saladin vs Sitting Bull. Whoever wins, they all lose.)
After this poll gets enough, maybe 70 votes, I'll start up Imp. Prot deserves to be last, because I think it'll end up being the one with most discussion. ...because prot kinda sucks, and most of the leaders -with- prot kinda got screwed.
 
I went with Mehmed II.
The only Expansive leader with the starting techs to research Pottery first and make a go for Granaries the earliest.
Their UB is one of the most liked, and their UU ignores walls+castles defense and is more effective vs multiple unit types.
His ORG trait is great for building up any empire solid.

Though, I do like Pacal, Shaka, George, and Bismarck.
 
Maybe mediocre is a bad word, but I put him mid-pack amongst the other expansionists. I forget his other starting tech but one is mysticism, rather weak. His UU is below average, give me a few good archers for anti-barb activity. The UB is good although getting that ball court out can be a pain at higher levels. Financial means I "usually" cottage spam meaning I do not want to use slavery as much, thus less emphasis on the cheap granery. Give me Washington, Mehmed, Bismark over Pacal anytime.

The whole point of Pacal's UU is that you don't have to tech archery since you can build 4 strength spears without metal. So until you face axes, you're safe. Pacal is way better than Bismarck and Washington. His UU and UB are both better than the German and American UU/UB combination, and his secondary trait is more universally useful. Mehmed is a coin toss decision with Pacal.
 
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