Best Expansive Leader

[madscientist]

The whole point of Pacal's UU is that you don't have to tech archery since you can build 4 strength spears without metal. So until you face axes, you're safe. Pacal is way better than Bismarck and Washington. His UU and UB are both better than the German and American UU/UB combination, and his secondary trait is more universally useful. Mehmed is a coin toss decision with Pacal.

Is financial better than Charismatic or Industrious? I am not really convinced it is. Charismatic gives happiness and helps in warfare, while IND get's you an extra wonder or 2 to help out plus fast forges and fast national wonders. FIN get's you extra commerce basically from cottages (which to me limits the whip and the need for fast graneries) or coastal (fast harbors help here). The cheaper worker allows Germany to chop wonders earlier, thus there is synergy there. I think both IND and CHA work better with EXP but that's just my preference. I am not so sure how FIN works that well with EXP.

The Holkan is a good anti-barb unit, however once the AI comes along they are no replacement for archers/axes. At Immortal I have found too often the AI comes fully packed for war. I agree the Holkan is better than the Panzer, but against the Seal it depends if you want the edge early or later, I prefer later in this case.

I think the Mall (20% gold, extra happiness from late wonders resources) is better than the Ball court considering Washington gets 2 extra happiness anyway from the trait. I admit the Ball court is better than the Assembly plant though.

Obviously there is alot of disagreement here on PAcal and my preference for the Expansive Germans and Americans. However I do agree with the majority on the quality of Mehmed although I do place him a tad below Washington.

 

[shyuhe]

Expansive gives you more workers, which lets you plant more farms and cottages. You can then grow to max size on farms and immediately switch to cottages for better returns. I think it's been proven that in a world with unlimited worker turns, you want to grow to max on farms then work cottages. Having expansive workers helps you towards that "ideal" world.

If you don't need archers or axes until an AI declares on you, then you've just bought yourself more time to tech bribing stuff like aesthetics and alphabet.

The assembly plant is a better UB than the mall, as it can actually help you reach a winning position from a non-winning situation. In the same vein, the ball court will help you reach a winning position from a non-winning situation, but centuries before the assembly plant comes into play. The mall won't help you reach a winning situation from a non-winning situation - it just helps you win sooner.

 

[itg]

The assembly plant is a better UB than the mall, as it can actually help you reach a winning position from a non-winning situation. In the same vein, the ball court will help you reach a winning position from a non-winning situation, but centuries before the assembly plant comes into play. The mall won't help you reach a winning situation from a non-winning situation - it just helps you win sooner.

I'm not convinced that's the case. The mall is really nice for rushbuy warring. If the mall means you get 3-4 more nukes, that could translate to 2 more cities and capitulation.

 

[shyuhe]

Rush buying without the Kremlin is inferior to raw hammers (caste + state property). If you want your nukes now instead of later, then you're better off whipping (with or without the Kremlin) since your goal is to cripple an AI that's on the verge of a space/culture victory. Boats and conventional units are generally the limiting factor with that strategy anyways - not nukes.

And if you have the Kremlin, that means you beat the AI to the mid-game techs = winning position. I don't think you can build the Kremlin in a game that isn't already decided.

 

[itg]

Rushbuy and normal production aren't mutually exclusive. Set the slider to 0% and you can bring the full economic strength of your empire into the war. Once you have nukes, tech is largely irrelevant. If an AI launches a ship, nuke and raze the capital. No big deal.

 

[madscientist]

Rush buying without the Kremlin is inferior to raw hammers (caste + state property). If you want your nukes now instead of later, then you're better off whipping (with or without the Kremlin) since your goal is to cripple an AI that's on the verge of a space/culture victory. Boats and conventional units are generally the limiting factor with that strategy anyways - not nukes.

And if you have the Kremlin, that means you beat the AI to the mid-game techs = winning position. I don't think you can build the Kremlin in a game that isn't already decided.

If every city has a market/grocer/bank/mall and you up the slider to 100% gold for 5 turns your generally gonna have enough money to buy whatever you want. Nukes, buildings, tanks, or simple American Bribery.

 

[lymond]

Calling Pacal mediocre seems rather off to me. I voted him the best, although the bizarre Myst starting tech does hurt him. I find him quite similar to Mehmed as far as the ability to grow rather large cities in the early game and I think Pacal is a very strong leader on higher difficulties for getting out to good starts. The Holkan makes archers irrelevant and can be used as a rush unit.

Shaka has probably one of the best overall synergies of any leader and is almost semi-organized. However, I think he can have issues if the land does not suit him.

By the way, I think EXP is one of the top traits and a personal favorite. Many seem to grossly underrate it.

 

[Spectrite]

I voted Pacal, although Mehmed is also very good. Pacal has a strong economic trait, a helpful UB (probably on the higher end, if not one of the best), and while the UU may not be game-breaking, it's reliable barb defense.

 

[CHEESE!]

Mao dammit!

 

[Pinstar]

Mehmed. Perfect starting techs, the hammam is an amazing UB, and janissary drafting can be ridiculous.

He is my favorite Civ/Leader period! I use him for almost all my games.
Don't forget that the Organized/Expansive combo makes the buildings that you actually build frequently in almost every city half cost.

That Hammam is a godsend if I lose all my religion races and need bigger cities.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

If every city has a market/grocer/bank/mall and you up the slider to 100% gold for 5 turns your generally gonna have enough money to buy whatever you want. Nukes, buildings, tanks, or simple American Bribery.

This is one of those fake arguments unless it's supported.

There is a small window where MGB rush buy can beat standard production or whipping - the time where you have rush buy + towns + gold infra available but before assembly line. If you DO get kremlin, the conversions on this rush buying are much better and compete with anything in the game, but without it you're talking about some woefully inefficient use of resources that generally only makes sense when it's used to kill people or otherwise provide VERY high returns that are usually seen with effective warfare.

Buying an extremely iffy UB w/o kremlin is not an example of something one would blow their quality multiplier commerce on doing, usually, since there is almost always a better option even then.

 

[bhavv]

Its Mehmed for me, although Sury would be my second.

Once you know how to play Sury (ignore the UU, its useless), he becomes extremely powerful.

However mehmed has a better UB + UU.

Now, can I pick Sury of the Ottomans instead . CRE / EXP is awesome good.

 

[plasmacannon]

Its Mehmed for me, although Sury would be my second.

Once you know how to play Sury (ignore the UU, its useless), he becomes extremely powerful.

However mehmed has a better UB + UU.

Now, can I pick Sury of the Ottomans instead . CRE / EXP is awesome good.

With Unrestricted Leaders option selected in your Custom game, Yes you can.

 

[bhavv]

With Unrestricted Leaders option selected in your Custom game, Yes you can.

I know that, I meant for the poll

 

[Iranon]

I voted for Mehmed. Not spectacular, but a very solid leader all around with a lot of discounted infrastructure and higher growth caps.

 

[plasmacannon]

Alot of this depends on things like map size.
If small or less, Shaka and Washington can rush into war, and are positioned to do better than the others.
Medium size, Bismark (gold wonders) and Isabella (when, she gets a Great Prophet for her Rel. Bldg)
If Large and up, Pacal, Mehmed, are best suited for very large empires.

Pacal will have the best income of anyone here. His cities will be larger, sooner (+2Health/+2happy).
His UU may not convince some, but, it is a no resourse HA killer, and when promoted, elephant killer.
I did vote for Mehmed, probably because, those courthouses take so long to build without ORG and I do like his UU, regardless if some think Ethiopa's is better.
Yes, his starting techs Ag and tW are good ones to have.

 

[Spectrite]

Alot of this depends on things like map size.
If small or less, Shaka and Washington can rush into war, and are positioned to do better than the others.
Medium size, Bismark (gold wonders) and Isabella (when, she gets a Great Prophet for her Rel. Bldg)
If Large and up, Pacal, Mehmed, are best suited for very large empires.

I think you may be placing a little too much on traits.

Just because AGG or CHA traits help in war doesn't mean only AGG or CHA leaders can succeed. Leaders without a military trait can still do well. Sure, maybe not as well, but they can still do it, and have another strength elsewhere.

Similarly, a leader without any economic traits can still have a successful economy. A leader without Industrious can still build wonders.

 

[plasmacannon]

I think you may be placing a little too much on traits.

Just because AGG or CHA traits help in war doesn't mean only AGG or CHA leaders can succeed. Leaders without a military trait can still do well. Sure, maybe not as well, but they can still do it, and have another strength elsewhere.

Similarly, a leader without any economic traits can still have a successful economy. A leader without Industrious can still build wonders.

It was not ment as an absolute.
I skimmed down the list with a quick summary of their initial benefits.
I still think Mehmed is a Great EXP/ORG leader.

Some leaders will help their empires more at different times of the game.
The quick rush races usually do well on smaller maps, but, usually don't have the traits or UB to support a larger empire as FIN/OGR traits would, or as England's Stock Exchange, Mali's Mint, America's Supermarket, Hannibal's Cothon would, generally speaking.

 

[Spectrite]

The quick rush races usually do well on smaller maps, but, usually don't have the traits or UB to support a larger empire as FIN/OGR traits would, or as England's Stock Exchange, Mali's Mint, America's Supermarket, Hannibal's Cothon would, generally speaking.

No, that's not true.

A civ without economic traits or UU can still support a large empire.

Of course, maybe not as well as civs with a unique helping them. But they can still do it.

 

[plasmacannon]

No, that's not true.

A civ without economic traits or UU can still support a large empire.

Of course, maybe not as well as civs with a unique helping them. But they can still do it.

OK, so, you are agreeing with me, as I said, "GENERALLY SPEAKING".
please don't argue, just for the sake of arguing.