BEST Female Leaders for Civ VII?

[ManoftheHour333]

Alright...kind of a contentious topic but one that is interesting. And I'd rather this stay civil/apolitical...the goal here is to solve a historical problem over just complaining about XYZ or whatever

So we know that the devs for Civ VII are going to be shooting for that equal representation which is phenomenal! But, the one downside is that sometimes, mostly due to patriarchal predispositions, there isn't as much to work with...and so we get minor queens such as Catherine Di Medici or mythological figures like Dido...I was wondering about what would be the best Civs to give female leaders to given the history of their respective nation, as well as other male options being "more fitting". Just as a way to avoid gripes (*cough Seondeok*) and make representation better received!

Some ones I've liked:

Lizzy or Vicky - England

Tomyris - Scythia

Isabella - Spain

Jigonhsasee - Iroquois Confederacy

Catherine - Russia

Nginza - Kongo

Hateshput - Egypt


We'd just need like ~25 more...all suggestions welcome!

​

 

[Zaarin]

cough Seondeok

Literally one person here complains about Seondeok. Everyone else likes her.

mythological figures like Dido

Dido most likely existed, though she was probably conflated with a goddess. Her brother and father are directly attested and datable, which adds weight to her account in Josephus. I think she's a somewhat disappointing choice for Carthage, but she's a fine choice for Phoenicia where there are no good sources on personality or similar details anyway.

Jigonhsasee - Iroquois Confederacy

Molly Brant is a better option, though I personally don't want the Haudenosaunee to become a staple unless we're guaranteed three or four Indigenous civs north of Mesoamerica. Also it's strange to complain about Dido while proposing Jigonhsasee. Both rely on the same sources for their existence: oral tradition. (I'm not saying we should discount oral tradition; I'm just saying be consistent in assessing one oral tradition versus another. )

Catherine - Russia

If we have to have an Enlightenment ruler of Russia again, Yelisaveta gets my vote. Catherine and Peter have been featured enough times.

Tomyris - Scythia

Nginza - Kongo

I'd be surprised to see either Scythia or Kongo again in Civ7.

 

[Evie]

Calling CdM "minor" is not really in line with history. She may not have the best reputation, but she was a defining force of sixteenth century France, and while I'd like to see other figures for France VII, I wouldn't mind seeing her again in the future. *Eleanor*, now, from a French perspective she absolutely was a minor queen and does not warrant inclusion (and while she is a slightly better fit for England, there are far better women to pick from there).

As Zaarin said, Jihongsasee is of about comparable debatable historicity as Dido. That is to say, it's very plausible both may have existed but what we know of them is legends, not their history, Molly Brant (Konwatsi'tsiaienni/Degonwadonti) may fit the role of a woman leader who is actually historical.

If we do allow oral tradition, adding Haussa led by Amina become a real possibility.

I will also say, just half is not enough. Not because we need more than half each game, but because we need to be able to let different civs take their turn rather than pigeonhole them with that one woman leader. Isabella is a decent Spanish leader choice, but Spain should be able to alternate between Isabella and other potential leaders. So that means we need more than half the civ having women options.

 

[ManoftheHour333]

Literally one person here complains about Seondeok. Everyone else likes her.


Dido most likely existed, though she was probably conflated with a goddess. Her brother and father are directly attested and datable, which adds weight to her account in Josephus. I think she's a somewhat disappointing choice for Carthage, but she's a fine choice for Phoenicia where there are no good sources on personality or similar details anyway.


Molly Brant is a better option, though I personally don't want the Haudenosaunee to become a staple unless we're guaranteed three or four Indigenous civs north of Mesoamerica. Also it's strange to complain about Dido while proposing Jigonhsasee. Both rely on the same sources for their existence: oral tradition. (I'm not saying we should discount oral tradition; I'm just saying be consistent in assessing one oral tradition versus another. )


If we have to have an Enlightenment ruler of Russia again, Yelisaveta gets my vote. Catherine and Peter have been featured enough times.



I'd be surprised to see either Scythia or Kongo again in Civ7.

Lol it's not just a couple people. I have 2 civ-playing Korean friends (One of which a female; although she is 1/2 korean) and both have said that Sejong or a few others (That I don't remember lol) would have been better picks. I'm kinda ambivalent on her myself but I'm also not as familiar with the leaders of Korea so I dunno

Wasn't trying to bash on fictional leaders too much-sorry if that came across! Sure Dido existed but I've always been in the Carthage >> Phoenicia camp since I'd rather see North Africa get some more love. There are just so many Levant/ middle eastern civs that I'd rather see return. It does make a Carthage ruler default to a Barca though which is admittedly a bit disappointing.

Oh if Civ VII doesn't have at least 4 First Nations/ North American Native American civs I'm gonna riot. Civ V gave us more somehow...I'll avoid that rant for another thread though lmao. Molly Brant would be fine too...just depends on how they want to portray the Iroquois. Documentation is always gonna be tough with oral tradition civilizations.

I could see Elizabeth I getting it too! Catherine has the clout though...and I'd rather see Lizzy return and 2 European Elizabeth I'd would be disappointing. Unless we get Vicky again (Which I actually do prefer but we just got her in VI) which I doubt.

Oh I wouldn't be surprised if Kongo comes back with the lack of central African civs we know a lot about (*glares at Hausa and Swahili*...althugh they may be able to get around Swahili with the Zanzibar sultanate jazz). Scythia could be axed for the Timurids but...central is also a wasteland of civ-lacking in VI.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

Nginza - Kongo

I'd be surprised to see either Scythia or Kongo again in Civ7.

If Mbande Nzinga comes back she shouldn't lead the Kongo. I was (am) expecting her to leader her own civ.

I don't know if I'm in the minority or not, but I do like the way Kristina is portrayed in Civ 6.

Maria Theresa is my most wanted to come back.

Other than those that I mentioned above, leaders such as Elizabeth for England, Isabella for Spain, Catherine for Russia and Wu Zetian for China are always good picks.

 

[ManoftheHour333]

Calling CdM "minor" is not really in line with history. She may not have the best reputation, but she was a defining force of sixteenth century France, and while I'd like to see other figures for France VII, I wouldn't mind seeing her again in the future. *Eleanor*, now, from a French perspective she absolutely was a minor queen and does not warrant inclusion (and while she is a slightly better fit for England, there are far better women to pick from there).

As Zaarin said, Jihongsasee is of about comparable debatable historicity as Dido. That is to say, it's very plausible both may have existed but what we know of them is legends, not their history, Molly Brant (Konwatsi'tsiaienni/Degonwadonti) may fit the role of a woman leader who is actually historical.

If we do allow oral tradition, adding Haussa led by Amina become a real possibility.

I will also say, just half is not enough. Not because we need more than half each game, but because we need to be able to let different civs take their turn rather than pigeonhole them with that one woman leader. Isabella is a decent Spanish leader choice, but Spain should be able to alternate between Isabella and other potential leaders. So that means we need more than half the civ having women options.

Lol I forgot Eleanor was even a leader in VI lmao. Still don't think CdM is that good of a French leader though. Putting aside that she's an Italian and we don't even have an Italian Civ, it just feels wrong to use a figure from a such a religiously-focussed time period for a culturally/tourism focussed France. If there were religious synergies I would get it but...it's just so out of place. And while the spying stuff was fitting I suppose, spying is so much of a chore in VI (IMO) that it makes me resent her that much more lmao

Haussa would be awesome I just don't know what they'd do to make a civ around it...it's more of an ethnic group without a state attached so you'd have to mix and match to make something to fit a typical civ model...always a fun topic...

I think it'd be fun to make female leaders for all Civs in the long terms for sure! It is true that England shouldn't be pigeonholed into just 1 or 2 options for the sake of inclusion...but I was moreso concerned with Civ VII. We don't know if multiple leaders will even be a think in that game so I was just starting with the one.

 

[Evie]

I mean, none of the versions of CdM in game emphasize religion, and rightly so. She reigned at a time of religious turmoils, she wasn't particularly known for her religious zeal herself.

The intrigue-centered CdM is very appropriate, and doesn't fit too badly a cultural civ, and Magnificence Catherine is very culturally oriented, and also appropriate to the character and era.

 

[FishFishFish]

How are these?

Cherokee - Nancy Ward

Edo - Idia

England - Matilda

Hittite - Puduhepa

India - Ahilyabai Holkar

Japan - Hojo Masako

Maya - Yohl Ik'nal

Mongolia - Sorghaghtani Beki (as a second leader after Genghis)

Nubia - Amanirenas

Russia - Elizabeth

Sumer - Kuĝbau

Haussa would be awesome I just don't know what they'd do to make a civ around it...it's more of an ethnic group without a state attached so you'd have to mix and match to make something to fit a typical civ model...always a fun topic...

I suppose they would be much like the Maya in that case.

I'm not really a fan of Amina as a leader due to some people arguing that she is a myth who never existed. Also the Hausa led by Amina would most likely end up as a warmongering civ, which is fine, but I'd prefer them to be a cultural civ based on the Sultanate of Kano with Muhammad Rumfa as the leader.

 

[Evie]

You'll find some people to argue that with just about any figure from oral tradition, due to strong traditional historical prejudice against oral tradition.

Unfortunately that leaves us in a position where there's little to no history in much of the world until Europeans showed up - and then the only history are the parts the Europeans (or, in some cases, Arabs) thought were worth writing about. Which is a pretty bad way to write history. Some aspects of Amina are doubtless legendary, but there's little good reason to dismiss her as mythological altogether.

I get wanting a more cultural leader, but as I said - we need every civ with potential good women leaders to take their turn.

 

[Patine]

Another call out for Boadicea here!

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

I mean, none of the versions of CdM in game emphasize religion, and rightly so. She reigned at a time of religious turmoils, she wasn't particularly known for her religious zeal herself.

The intrigue-centered CdM is very appropriate, and doesn't fit too badly a cultural civ, and Magnificence Catherine is very culturally oriented, and also appropriate to the character and era.

Catherine was indeed an interesting choice, but at the same France has many other options that would work better. For the future I'd much rather have an spymaster Cardinal Richelieu, or even Louis XIV to return as the magnificent culturally oriented leader.

 

[Zaarin]

Carthage >> Phoenicia camp since I'd rather see North Africa get some more love. There are just so many Levant/ middle eastern civs that I'd rather see return. It does make a Carthage ruler default to a Barca though which is admittedly a bit disappointing.

Carthage or Phoenicia, it's the same civ, and you can give Dido Carthage as a capital and still call her civ Phoenicia. There are also a ton of great options for Carthaginian leaders aside from Hannibal or Hamilcar Barca. Hanno I and Mago I are two great choices. I prefer to continue to call the civ Phoenicia because it's less likely to turn into "elephants and warfare"; regardless of what it's called, the civ should be about trade, exploration, and colonization--in other words, Phoenicia's Civ6 design is as practically perfect in every way as Mary Poppins herself could wish it.

Phoenicians don't really represent North Africans, though, anymore than the United States or Canada represent North Americans. They were Levantines who lived in North Africa (and Iberia and Cyprus and all over the Mediterranean). They had a Lybico-Berber substrate, that's true, but the elites were mostly old Phoenician families--and down to the Islamic conquest they were still calling themselves Canaanites. So another good argument for Phoenicia over Carthage is the hope of getting an indigenous North African civ (and, relevant to the thread, I throw my vote to Dihya leading the Tuareg). And also relevant, I'll throw a vote to a male leader of Phoenicia (Hiram II gets my vote) in favor of a Zenobia-led Aram/Syria. Worth noting that in Civ6 Phoenicia is the only civ in the Levant; even Civ6 Arabia has its capital in Cairo rather than Damascus (and odds are Arabia will have its capital in Baghdad if we get an Abbasid again). (Personally, I'm all for overstocking the Middle East. It's more interesting than overstocking the Balkans like we have now, and I don't play TSL anyway.)

Mongolia - Sorghaghtani Beki (as a second leader after Genghis)

Ah, good, I'm not alone on this one.

Another call out for Boadicea here!

Ah, yes, the failed revolt leader whom Firaxis is unable to portray except as a half-naked dreadlocked savage. Hard pass. Not to mention that the Britons were absolutely backwards compared to the Gauls. IMO Gaul and Ireland should take turns as "the Celtic civ." (The Celtiberians would be fun but we know too little about them. Wales could be a dark horse choice. Brittany and Cornwall are both super interesting but very unlikely to ever happen. Civ6 made a strong case for why we didn't need Scotland.)

 

[Duke William of Normandy]

Ireland

Speaking of Ireland, what about the mad lad herself Grace O'Malley?

 

[Patine]

whom Firaxis is unable to portray except as a half-naked dreadlocked savage

The Bank of England does not portray her such on it's official watermark logo:

 

[Zaarin]

Speaking of Ireland, what about the mad lad herself Grace O'Malley?

She's not my first choice, but I wouldn't say no.

The Bank of England does not portray her such on it's official watermark logo:

View attachment 648605

I was unaware Firaxis had acquired the Bank of England. Either way, my point stands that Boudica led a failed revolt that was only as successful as it was on account of the fury with which the rebels fought rather than any skill or tactical leadership, and that the Britons were a bunch of poor farmers of whom very little is even known prior to their thorough Romanization. Boudica's just going to be another Cleopatra in terms of Graeco-Roman overrepresentation (even if she wasn't a literal Hellene like Cleopatra).

 

[Evie]

The problem is, for a lot of civs that have potential women for leaders, there are traditionally more famous and popular men sitting in front - England with Liz and Vic and arguably Russia with Catherine or Austria (but she should lead Germany) with Maria Theresa are really exceptions here. Traditional history has largely been built around the accomplishment of male rulers, so that's hardly surprising,

If we are to get a relative balance of women leaders in the game, some of the more traditionally famous men are going to have to take turns taking backseats to their less famous women counterpart. France having its famous men only every other game or every two game out of three depending how many options we find is a reasonable sacrifice.

 

[Henri Christophe]

Nginza - Kongo

If Mbande Nzinga comes back she shouldn't lead the Kongo. I was (am) expecting her to leader her own civ.

Nzinga leading the Kongo is a big error, she should lead the Ndongo.



And about womens I want to see the most is Xochitl of Toltecs.

 

[Patine]

And about womens I want to see the most is Xochitl of Toltecs.

We've gone over this - not just me and you, but virtually everyone who posts on these specific type of threads and you - many times. Just reread all of our past posts on the topic of the Toltecs every time you bring them up, to save time.

 

[Henri Christophe]

We've gone over this - not just me and you, but virtually everyone who posts on these specific type of threads and you - many times. Just reread all of our past posts on the topic of the Toltecs every time you bring them up, to save time.

I know we already discuss this thema over exaustion. But I never will be convinced. We have enouth material to do a civ of the Toltecs.


Back in the topic of the thread, other female leader I would like to see is Isabelita Perón, she was the first women to be presidents of Americas and it is huge. Also is a good option to see Argentina in the game.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

Speaking of Ireland, what about the mad lad herself Grace O'Malley?

Wouldn't it be the mad lad(y)?
I'd much rather Brian Boru, but if not him she would be interesting indeed.

Back in the topic of the thread, other female leader I would like to see is Isabelita Perón, she was the first women to be presidents of Americas and it is huge. Also is a good option to see Argentina in the game.

If we get Argentina, and a female leader for them, I don't see how it wouldn't be Eva Peron.