Best pantheons?

[mdm]

They're obviously start-dependent but under the best circumstances it seems God King and Desert Folklore are the best. But how many desert tiles do you need to make desert a more attractive option than God King?

 

[Nizef]

It also depends on the difficulty level and what your objectives are (are you going for a religion or just some early growth/culture). On Deity (and Immortal) pantheons and religions go very fast. Thus God King is not very helpful to achieve any objective. If you want a massive religion, Desert Folklore is the absolutely best alternative. Other pantheons that may help you to a religion are Earth Mother, Tear of the Gods, Stone Circles and Religious Idols. If you can settle near a Natural Wonder, One with Nature becomes viable (absolutely fantastic with Spain). Also Goddess of Festivals might be useful, but I dislike it myself, because you will have to work Wine&Incense tiles in the early game and they provide no growth.

 

[Tiberiu]

God King? I think God King is one of the weakest pantheons, and only take it when I can't obtain a religion, for very minor bonuses but useful early game. Note that it only applies for the capital, unlike other pantheons.

When you are sure to get a religion, any food pantheon is top choice since food is the root of all good things. Sun God especially with the right resources since they don't even require them to be improved. The bonus is immediate.
Fertility rights is also one of the strongest pantheons in the game, especially combined with Temple of Artemis and other food combos.
In heavy tundra areas, Dance of the Aurora is top choice, as Desert Folklore is for desert. (minimum number of tiles is debatable, I would say 5-6)
In heavy jungle starts, Sacred path is top choice with any civ but especially with Brazil, and in that case getting a religion by Liberty finisher instead of by faith becomes an option (minimum tiles 7-8). Sacred path culture gives tourism later too with an improvement. (fort, tradepost, brazilwood camp), aiding Cultural Victory.
If you can settle a natural wonder early, One with Nature is also good, to provide you with a religion. But if you can get a religion without it, other things could be better -(food).
God of the Sea is decent but takes a lot of time to take effect so it's not really a top choice unless you have like 4-5 sea resources in capital.
All the rest are weak and not worth taking imo, unless you can only get a religion by choosing them, in which case they are good. i.e Tear of the Gods with Gems etc.

 

[Nizef]

God King? I think God King is one of the weakest pantheons, and only take it when I can't obtain a religion, for very minor bonuses but useful early game. Note that it only applies for the capital, unlike other pantheons.

When you are sure to get a religion, any food pantheon is top choice since food is the root of all good things. Sun God especially with the right resources since they don't even require them to be improved. The bonus is immediate.
Fertility rights is also one of the strongest pantheons in the game, especially combined with Temple of Artemis and other food combos.
In heavy tundra areas, Dance of the Aurora is top choice, as Desert Folklore is for desert. (minimum number of tiles is debatable, I would say 5-6)
In heavy jungle starts, Sacred path is top choice with any civ but especially with Brazil, and in that case getting a religion by Liberty finisher instead of by faith becomes an option (minimum tiles 7-8). Sacred path culture gives tourism later too with an improvement. (fort, tradepost, brazilwood camp), aiding Cultural Victory.
If you can settle a natural wonder early, One with Nature is also good, to provide you with a religion. But if you can get a religion without it, other things could be better -(food).
God of the Sea is decent but takes a lot of time to take effect so it's not really a top choice unless you have like 4-5 sea resources in capital.
All the rest are weak and not worth taking imo, unless you can only get a religion by choosing them, in which case they are good. i.e Tear of the Gods with Gems etc.

I think this is about right. However, I have a few comments:
- On high difficulties you rarely have a situation where you can get a religion without a faith generating pantheon. That is why I tend to prioritize them, if I can get at least 5-6 faith per turn.
- It is not always possible nor desirable to use the Liberty finisher for a religion (all religions might be gone before that or the opportunity cost is too high).
- I would argue that Desert Folklore is much stronger than Dance of the Aurora, because you will probably settle cities near flood plains, which gain you a lot more growth potential than the tundra tiles are able to provide.
- If religion is a priority, the most reliable way of getting one is to build shrines asap and take two points in Piety (opener + Organized religion). However, also this method usually requires (or at least it is conveniently aided by) a faith based pantheon to be fast enough on high difficulties.
- Fertility rites only gives you +10% on the excess food and not on all food production. This does not mean that it is a poor choice, only that it is well balanced compared to the other choices.
- I think that playing with a religion adds depth to the game and also helps your game. So being, it is much easier to get a strong religion by playing a religious civ (like the Mayans or Ethiopia).

 

[zxcvbob]

Another good way to get a religion when it works out is to kill barbarians that are attacking a religious city state. It doesn't take all that many to get an alliance.

God-King is one of my favorite pantheons if I can get it early (and there's not another obvious choice like Desert Folklore, Earth Mother, Stone Circles, or OWN). It *really* boosts your capital, and even w/ Liberty it helps you pump out settlers. And the little bit of faith that it gives is often enough to help get a religion.

 

[Tiberiu]

I think this is about right. However, I have a few comments:
- On high difficulties you rarely have a situation where you can get a religion without a faith generating pantheon. That is why I tend to prioritize them, if I can get at least 5-6 faith per turn.
- It is not always possible nor desirable to use the Liberty finisher for a religion (all religions might be gone before that or the opportunity cost is too high).
- I would argue that Desert Folklore is much stronger than Dance of the Aurora, because you will probably settle cities near flood plains, which gain you a lot more growth potential than the tundra tiles are able to provide.
- If religion is a priority, the most reliable way of getting one is to build shrines asap and take two points in Piety (opener + Organized religion). However, also this method usually requires (or at least it is conveniently aided by) a faith based pantheon to be fast enough on high difficulties.
- Fertility rites only gives you +10% on the excess food and not on all food production. This does not mean that it is a poor choice, only that it is well balanced compared to the other choices.
- I think that playing with a religion adds depth to the game and also helps your game. So being, it is much easier to get a strong religion by playing a religious civ (like the Mayans or Ethiopia).

Good comments Nizef, I agree with all your points, except Liberty finisher since it's my main way of getting religion lately so I need to defend it. I'll make few other comments on my own.

- Just to make myself clear, I use turn 70 as a reasonable "target" to finish Liberty and turn 60 for Oracle finishing. Obviously, sometimes all religions pass by turn 50-55, but then you most probably wouldn't have gotten a religion by faith neither. My point is, on Deity, the chance to get a religion is roughly the same with either Culture or Faith. The fastest theoretical prophet is surely by faith, I wouldn't dispute that. That could give you better choices in a religion, but thankfully there are enough good options so that even the worst religion you end up with is still quite useful during the game. But the average game, I think, tends towards a similar turn time for both faith and cultural prophets. For me I think they tend towards 50-50 for me, that is in half of games I get religion by faith and in other half by culture, depending on what dirt I have I make the choice. For the record, my fastest Liberty finish for prophet was t48 with Poland (Sacred Path+Pay CS to ally+ fast Optics), but of course Poland is an exception, they can do what they want.
One disadvantage of religion by culture is that the prophet increases the cost for Engineer and Scientist too, not only for next prophet. The advantage however is that you can get either a food/production/culture/ pantheons and still get a religion and you don't risk getting burned with 200+ faith and waiting 5+ turns with no prophet getting born only to see that you made your target only to fail due to bad RNG.
- Desert folklore is clearly higher potential than Dance of the Aurora since tundra tiles tend to suck and especially because tundra with forest doesn't give the faith.
- Fertility rites gives 0.2 food with +2 food excess, which is small, but it also gives +6 with +60 food excess later, which equals Hanging Gardens, which is cool. But the thing is, I think sometimes, even that 0.2-0.3 etc in the early game is good enough to grow 1 turn faster, 6 instead of 7 etc, especially with ToA. I used to consider it weak because of exactly what you said, but in games where I had it, it did help the growth especially late game so I now I try to have it when I can.

 

[raider980]

I'm not sure how many tiles it would take for me to take DF, but I wouldn't take it with just a couple few desert hills. Usually though, if you start near desert, there's quite a bit of it so its usually an easy decision. DF is the only pantheon that I would call OP because it works on Flood Plains; and if you're going to settle in desert you're going to almost always have Flood Plains.

I have taken God King but only if there's no better one based on the land I have, and only if I don't think I'm going to get a religion because it is useless later in the game. But it is a nice boost early.

I used to take Fertility Rights but then I learned about the excess food part of it and its almost the opposite of GK, its pretty useless early game but kicks in late game. I haven't taken it in a long time because there's always something better that is based on the land around me. @Tiberiu I know I tend to have smaller cities than most but 60 excess food in one city seems impossible. Or are you saying that FR is somehow additive and combines all your cities? Because that would change my opinion of it.

There's a good thread here on CivFanatics called Rate the Beliefs - Pantheons; you can see in that thread how wide opinions are on various pantheons. A lot of people seem to take universality into effect when thinking of a pantheon as good or not. I think of it as, if I were to take that pantheon, how much would it help my game as opposed to taking another pantheon. That's why I'd put DF at the top in a class of its own. The other pantheons I tend to take in relatively descending order:

Desert Folklore
Earth Mother - Faith for Salt, Copper, Iron
Sun God - Food for Banana, Citrus, Wheat
Religious Idols - Faith and Culture from Gold and Silver
Sacred Path - Culture from Jungle
Goddess of Festivals - Faith and Culture for Wine and Incense
One with Nature - faith from Natural Wonders
Goddess of the Hunt - Food from camps.
God of the Sea - Production for sea resources
Stone Circles - 2 faith from Quarries.
God of the Open Sky -Culture for pastures
Feed the World - Food for shrines, temples
God King

Having said that, its all situational. I took God of the Sea in a recent game because I had four sea resources in my capital that I knew I was going to work early. I also knew I wasn't getting a religion. Even though I lost it later because someone spread their religion to me, it was absolutely OP for the situation and helped me immensely in the early game.

 

[zxcvbob]

Isn't Feed the World a follower belief? I often take it when I enhance my religion. Free food is pretty strong after your religion is locked in.

 

[Tiberiu]

I used to take Fertility Rights but then I learned about the excess food part of it and its almost the opposite of GK, its pretty useless early game but kicks in late game. I haven't taken it in a long time because there's always something better that is based on the land around me. @Tiberiu I know I tend to have smaller cities than most but 60 excess food in one city seems impossible. Or are you saying that FR is somehow additive and combines all your cities? Because that would change my opinion of it.

FR doesn't combine all cities, no. But with food caravans and the right policies, we love the king, tradition 6 it's quite easy to get not 60 but 100 food+. I gave 60 as an example where it just equals Hanging Gardens. Go venice wide and send all food caravans to tradition 6 capital with ToA and FR and Iron Curtain and can get 200 by end of the game even.

 

[Sarin]

Depending on resources, Goddess of the Hunt or Sun God can give you better profit than FR. I'd consider FR a first fallback if terrain/resource based pantheons won't work for your area or are taken.

 

[raider980]

Isn't Feed the World a follower belief? I often take it when I enhance my religion. Free food is pretty strong after your religion is locked in.

Oh yes, you're right it is. I think it used to be a pantheon and then it got changed.

 

[beetle]

Presumably one only has a pantheon because you are trying to catch a religion. It therefore follows that the main point of a pantheon is to generate faith. There are exceptions of course, but this holds true in 9 out of 10 of my games.

There are only a few good choices, and you need one that matches your starting dirt. On the positive side, there are few good options, you only need one to work out, and you only need about 5 faith-per-turn to catch the last religion.

God King is my choice of last resort, and it means that nothing available matches my starting dirt. Sun God, Sacred Path, and God of the Sea are all nice buffs, but again, do not help with faith. I only take those if I have had the good luck to ally a religious CS early in the game. Or maybe if I am playing Celts or Ethiopia. At Deity, all of the other civs need faith-generating pantheon if they hope to catch a religion. It is pretty simple really.

 

[Tradlib]

Oral Tradition is really good if you're in a plot with lots of silk/wine/cotton/bananas/citrus/etc