Best roman empire!!

The best roman empire?

  • "The Christianized Roman empire of the Greek nation".

    Votes: 14 50.0%
  • Holy Roman Empire of the German Nation

    Votes: 14 50.0%

  • Total voters
    28
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Q38) What do some Skopjans claim that the population composition of Macedonia is?

Hristo Antonofsky an extremist Skopjan gave the following ethnological composition of Macedonia, Greece [for the period around 1941]

"Macedonians" (of the Skopjan type) 258,000
Greeks 250,000
"Caramanlides" 210,000
Armenians 80,000
Lazi and other caucasians... 74,000
Others 37,000

[source: Hristo Antonofksi: "Egejska Makedonija" (Skopje, Go na Zdruzhanieto na be Galcite od Eg. Makedonija, 1951),p50. ]

In addition to discovering new nationalities Antonofski excluded from the count the population of Thessaloniki, the Chalcidice peninsula, and the Kozani prefecture of Macedonia.

Q39) Bulgarian statements on Skopje in the late fifties [after the Tito-Stalin breakup].

After the creation of the People's Republic of "Macedonia", Yugoslavs embarked in an attempt to change the Bulgarian idiom spoken by the Skopjans. They removed Bulgarian words and replaced them with Serbo-Croatian ones. Bulgars then claimed that the purpose of the creation of a new "Macedonian' language" was not to unite the Macedonian people or advance their culture but to suppress and supplant the Bulgarian language spoken and read by all Slav Macedonians. In addition, P Gevgeliev wrote in "Skopje revives macedonian spectre", Free Bulgaria,pp229-230,

It is true that we have given up the teaching of "Macedonian history", a high falutin term for the ravings of a handful of maniacs in Skopje who are so far gone in their nationalistic dementia and mental aberration as to claim that the present "Macedonian" people are descendants of Alexander the Great. These "historians" seem to overlook the fact that the Slav tribes came to this territory fully a thousand years after the death of Alexander the Macedon."

Q40)Skopjan minority claims.

How many supposedly "Macedonians" of the Skopjan type are in Greece? Well, the Skopjans and their supporters cannot agree to a reasonable figure.

Once Radio Belgrade (Dec 14, 1950) claimed this number was 250,000. On August 28, 1953 Yugopress claimed it was 120,000.

The current claim depends on the weather :-), the mood of the es- timator, and the outcome of some (probably highly biased) random number generator :-) :-).

Q41) Are there any Slavs living in Greece? When the last few Slavs left Greece? Are there any Slavophone living in Greece? Where are they living? Who are they?

Excluding a number of Polish and Hungarian immigrant workers as well as few Yugoslav illegal workers residing in Greece particularly during the summer months, there are no other Slavs living in Greece.

Skopjans claim that there is a sizeable Slavic minority in the region Macedonia of Greece. One can easily find out that there is not such a minority.

The answer to the second part of the question has been given in various answers to previous Questions. The Neuilly Treaty arranged for the exchange of the Greek Population living in Bulgaria and the Bulgarian (Slavic) population living in Greece. Their departure was finally completed in the late 1940s (See questions 32 and 34 for more details).

There are various Slavophones living in Greece most of whom are of Greek nationality. These are:

Few Bulgar-speaking Greeks living in Western Macedonia who may still speak this language. Their presence in Macedonia as well as their Greekness have been noted by many non-greek authors. For references to this check previous questions. Many of them fought against the Bulgars in the late 19th and early 20th century, like captain Kottas from the village of Roulia, against the Germans and the Bulgarians during WWII and the Greek communists in the following greek civil war. As time passes the Bulgarian language is dropped from usage just as this also happened with Turkish to the Turkish speaking Greeks who came in Greece from Asia Minor in 1922-1923.
Russian-speaking Greeks (some known as Pontian-Greeks) who are coming to Greece following the disintegration of the former USSR. These Greeks used to live in northern Turkey before they were expelled from there. Some of them have not been Greek-speakers for centuries, being previously Turkish-speakers (the Greeks of Azerbaijan and Kazakhstan fall in this category).
The Muslim Pomaks living in Greek Thrace and who are governed by the Lausanne Peace Treaty signed (among others) by Greece and Turkey which provided for the treatment of the Greek minority in Constantinople (nowadays Istanbul) and the Muslim minority in Greek Thrace (Western Thrace). Turks like to consider Pomaks as Turks, and Bulgars as Bulgarians. Pomaks were forcefully bulgarised by the Bulgars - that's why they are not so friendly to them and until some time in the 15-17th century were Christians when they became Muslims under the threat of death by the Turks. In the past years Turkey has been trying to convince Pomaks to abandon their language and start speaking Turkish. Due to this connection of the Pomaks and the Bulgars it is not much of a surprise that the Pomakian language looks like the one spoken by the Skopjans (sans the Serbo-Croatian words added to the Skopjan "Macedonian" idiom after 1945 to differentiate it from Bulgarian and some extra archaic greek and Turkish influences found in the Pomakian idiom).

Q42) A brief history of the Bulgarian-origin terrorist group IMRO (Internal Macedonian Revolutionary Organization) founded one hundred years ago (1893)

[This discussion contains excerpts from previous questions so that it can become as self-contained as possible. Despite this, reading of questions Q27-Q41 is still advised.] One of the main events that helped increase the Bulgarian influence in the part of the Ottoman empire to be called San-Stefano "Macedonia" in 1878 was the creation of the Bulgarian Exarchate in 1870 which took over responsibility for the orthodox Bulgars living in the Ottoman empire.

In early 1890's various Bulgarian groups were organized in the Ottoman empire advocating a more revolutionary program in Macedonia that would result in the Bulgarization of the area. One such group was IMRO (Internal Macedonian Revolutionary Organization) which was organized around 1893 and whose founders included Gotse Deltchev, Damjan Grujev, Pere Tochev, Petar Pop Arsov, and other Bulgarians from Bulgaria and San-Stefano "Macedonia". Since it was clear that European powers would never accept to Macedonia being part of Bulgaria, IMRO was aiming at uniting "Macedonia", by any possible (even violent) revolutionary means into a single entity and thus declaring a Macedonian state, which in the beginning would co-exist with Bulgaria then uniting with Bulgaria when the conditions in Europe would be favorable to such a union (although IMRO did not openly declare this intention). IMRO was theoretically open to all people living in "San Stefano Macedonia" be them Bulgars, Serbs, Greeks, Jews etc. Except for few Bulgar-speaking Greeks who joined IMRO on the belief that they were to fight the Turks and not fight for Bulgaria, no other non-Bulgars joined it. Even these Greeks, when it became clear to them what the intentions of IMRO really were departed and fought against it (such as captain Kottas from the village of Roulia). Thus, after 1900 the only members of IMRO were Bulgars living in the Ottoman empire as well as others from Bulgaria.

IMRO within a year from its creation came under Bulgarian-state control and financed mainly by the Bulgars in Sofia. The creation in 1894, of the Internal Macedonian-Adrianople Revolutionary Organization was to this direction. The "Adrianople" of this definition was referring to the then Turkish Vilaet of Adrianople which included the whole of nowadays Greek Thrace. The Bulgars since that time had eyes not only on Macedonia but also on Thrace (as the occupation during WWII of both these areas of Greece also suggests). IMRO thus began to be under the control of the Supreme (Macedonian) Committee located in Sofia, Bulgaria. Relations between IMRO and the Supreme Committee and between IMRO and the Bulgarian Exarchate were not without tensions. Besides leadership ambitions between the leaders of IMRO and SC, the two organization wanted to achieve the same objectives (Bulgarian control over Macedonia) differently. IMRO favored the creation of a separate Bulgarian state that of Macedonia. SC wanted the union of Macedonia to Bulgaria as the articles of the San-Stefano Treaty dictated. On the other hand the Bulgarian Exarchate objected to IMRO's revolutionary (and violent) means of achieving its target. It preferred more peaceful means that would involve the creation of schools educating the Bulgar-speaking population regardless of nationality and possibly providing monetary support to this population. The members of the SC were called Supremacist (Vrhovists), while the IMRO members of the terrorist bands in Macedonia were called comitadjis. In 1898, the Supreme Committee, under the leadership of Sarafov, prevailed and IMRO thus came under full Bulgarian control.
By that time it was clear to every non-Bulgarian member of IMRO the intentions of that organization. A terrorist campaign against the Greek population of Macedonia which began in 1893 intensified at that time. One reason for this was the inaction of the Greek Government mainly following the Greek defeat by the Turks in 1897. Because of this, the Turks tolerated the Bulgarian actions against the Greek population of Macedonia. This was to change only in the period of 1904-1908 when the first Greek bands with full support from Greece began to organize themselves and supplemented the few ones present in Macedonia since 1900 (whose organization was due to the efforts of the Bishop of Kastoria Germanos Karavaggelis and the monetary support of Macedonians living in Europe). Serbian bands were also active in "San Stefano Macedonia" at that time, but their presence and activity was mostly limited in the lands of nowadays Rep. of Skopje. The Balkan wars of the 1912-1920s erupted from these rivalries of Bulgars, Greeks, Serbs and Turks.

One member of IMRO in the period 1903-1908 was Dimitar Vlahov who was also elected as a Bulgar representative in the Ottoman Parliament. After the Balkan wars and the defeat of the Greeks by the Turks in 1922 the situation in Macedonia clarified with the forced population exchanges between Turkey and Greece and the voluntary exchanges between Greece and Bulgaria. Because of these population exchanges all Turks left Macedonia (or the Greek part of "San Stefano Macedonia", if one follows the alternative definition of the term "Macedonia" ), and almost all Bulgars left Greece. The Neuilly Treaty was to bring peace in the relations of Bulgaria with her adversaries. A convention between Greece and Bulgaria, known as the Neuilly Treaty, entering force on August 9, 1920 provided for the voluntary exchange of populations between Bulgaria and Greece in order to avoid mistreatment of the alien populations in the two countries.

IMRO, still active, objected to the implementation of the exchange of populations because this would eliminate the Bulgarian element in Greece and would eliminate Bulgaria's claim on Macedonia. A number of Slavs who had expressed their desire to migrate to Bulgaria thus chose not to do so due to pressures from IMRO.

During the wars, prior to 1920, close to 16,000 Greeks and 30,000 Bulgars fled to their respective homelands and after the Neuilly Treaty the corresponding numbers were 30,000 and 53,000. Still, some Bulgars, following IMRO's suggestions remained in Greece. Some others who due to intermarriage were not sure of their allegiance to either country also did not leave. Their presence was left noticed due to the chaotic situation in Greece following the Greek defeat of 1922 by the Turks and the subsequent forced exchange of populations between Greece and Turkey. The only minority (since the Bulgars were supposed to go following the Neuilly Treaty) left in Greece was a Moslem one in Thrace.

The situation in Southern Serbia was quite complicated since a large number of Bulgars were still residing there. These were to be named in the 1940s "Macedonians" by Tito in order to eliminate the Bulgarian influence on this territory of then Yugoslavia.

Around 1921, IMRO was ruled by Protogerov and Alexandrov, both ex-"Supremacist" (Vrhovists) who advocated a nationalistic Bulgarian policy. The "Centralists" advocated, just like the old IMRO, that an independent Macedonia was the only way towards a Bulgarian Macedonia. This latter faction within IMRO included as members Athanasov, Panitsa, Dimitar Vlahov kai Hadji-Dimov who in 1921 formed a new group inside IMRO. All four of them were leftists, either communists (like Hadji-Dimov) or socialists who were to become communist at a later time (such as Vlahov). By 1924 these two groups murdered the leaders of each other. First Alexandrov, then Hadji-Dimov and later Panitsa were murdered. In 1925 the surviving leaders Protogerov and Vlahov splitted and Vlahov founded United-IMRO. Although United-IMRO did not have as many followers as IMRO itself, it was nevertheless followed by socialists who had not yet declared themselves communists. In 1936 Vlahov dissolved United-IMRO and went to Moscow. He returned to Yugoslavia in 1943 after being invited by Tito and became Prime Minister of the then newly formed, by Tito, People's Republic of Macedonia. A revisionist history of IMRO by Vlahov interpreted the fight of IMRO from 1893-1920 as a fight of "Macedonian" (of the Skopjan type) and not Bulgarian poor peasants of low classes against the Turkish land owners. He also attacked the Supremacist and accused them of (which was naturally true since all IMRO members were then Bulgars) being under the guidance of the Bulgarians in Sofia and thus being indifferent to the independent "Macedonian" movement for independence. All these were being told by a person who was elected as a Bulgar in the Ottoman Parliament.

Following the Balkan Wars and WWI, Bulgaria lobbied Soviet Union to support her position on the Macedonian problem that is the political future of San-Stefano "Macedonia" in case of a communist victory in the Balkans.

Bulgarians did not and still do not accept the existence of a "macedonian nationality" (the way Skopjans do) but use the term "macedonian" population to refer to the population of the San-Stefano "Macedonia", whose definition was only political and had nothing to do with the historic region of Macedonia. Thus, the resolution of the Sixth Communist Balkan Conference promised that

... In setting up the ideal of a workers' and peasants' government, the communist parties and the Communist federation of the Balkans will assure peace, independence and liberty of development of all the peoples of the Peninsula, that it will be a voluntary union of independent Balkan Republics, including the Republic of Macedonia and Thrace.

It is noted that this text indicates that Bulgaria wanted to see all Northern Greece taken away from Greece. Bulgaria had aspirations not only on Macedonia but also on Greek Thrace. This is in line with earlier Bulgarian claims that ancient Macedonians were Illyrians (or Thraco-Illyrians) and that they (Bulgarians) are ancestors of either the Illyrians or the Thracians. The Bulgarians realizing that it was difficult for the lands of San-Stefano "Macedonia" to become parts of Bulgaria, rallied for an independent "Macedonia" to eliminate objection from the Communist parties of Yugoslavia and Greece and also gain the support of the Soviet Union.

Separately, Bulgarian communist representatives and IMRO, represented by Alexandrov (before his murder), Protogerov and Chaoulev, signed a manifesto which also included the following (see [9])

IMRO declares that it is fighting and will fight with all the means permitted by the revolution:

For the liberation and the reunion of the separated parts of Macedonia [My Note: that is the San-Stefano Russian defined "Macedonia". The two three pieces are "Macedonia" (Skopje) and what the Skopjans call Pirin Macedonia and Aegean Macedonia (what we Macedonians in Greece call simply Macedonia)] in a fully autonomous and independent political unit, within its natural geographical and ethnic frontiers.
For the democratization of the States bordering on Macedonia [My Note: presumably Greece, and Yugoslavia-Serbia. Only communist states were considered democratic by the two signatories.] and for their union in a Balkan federation which alone can guarantee the political existence of an independent Macedonia and the independence of the other Balkan peoples.

During WWII, Bulgars sided with the Germans and their reward for that was the occupation of Macedonia and Thrace of Greece.

At the end of WWII the feelings of the Greeks and especially of those living in the areas occupied by the Bulgarians toward their Bulgarian neighbors prompted a British [C.M. Woodhouse - ce107] to remark that "the only brotherly sentiment which Greek Macedonians felt towards the Bulgars was a disposition to raise Cain".

Elizabeth Barker similarly wrote:

Although Greeks were relieved by the belated Bulgarian withdrawal, they were left with an overpowering hatred of all Bulgars, whether pro-German or Communist. In fact the average Greek probably detested and feared the Bulgarian communists, who represented the great Slav menace to Greece from the north, even more than he had hated their predecessors.

Among the Bulgars still living in Greece at that time, some of them sided with the pro-German Bulgars who occupied parts of Greece during WWII. These, at the end of WWII, naturally left Greece. Some other (pro-communist ones) joined various communist oriented guerilla groups. These groups were controlled by the Yugoslavs of Tito and after WWII sided with the Greek communist guerillas who turned in the meantime against the Greek Government. After the communist defeat in the subsequent greek civil war they finally left Greece, 28-29 years after the signing of the Neuilly Treaty that first provided for their departure from Greece.

It is noted that the first 'premier' of the new republic of "Macedonia" was Dimitar Vlahov, who had been an outspoken Bulgarian during the first decade of the 20th century, was an elected Bulgarian delegate to the Turkish Parliament, became leader of the "United" IMRO in 1925, and in the following years declared himself an "authentic Macedonian".

K. J. Belloch "Griechische Geschichte" I-IV (2nd edition) Berlin-Leipzig 1912-1917.
St. Casson. "Macedonia, Thrace and Illyria", Oxford 1926.
Ap. B. Daskalakis. "The hellenism of Ancient Macedonia", (In Greek) Athens 1960.
[This text has also been translated into English. The English edition was published around 1964.]
Geyer Fr. "Makedonien bis zur Thronbesteigung Philipps II", Muenchen 1930.
O. Hoffmann "Die Makedonen, ihre Sprache und ihr Volkstum", Goettingen 1906.
M. Sakellariou, a chapter on the Macedonian dialect of Greek in "Macedonia: 4000 years of Greek history and civilization" edited by M. Sakellariou, EKDOTIKI ATHINON.
N. Martis "The falsification of Macedonian History". Ikaros Publications, Athens 1984.
D. Zagles "To Makedoniko Problhma kai oi Notioslayoi" (in Greek), Athens.
Evangelos Kofos "Nationalism and Communism in Macedonia" Institute for Balkan Studies (ETAIREIA MAKEDONIKON SPOYDON - IDRYMA MELETON HERSONISOY TOY AIMOY), THESSALONIKI, 1964.
Hammond, N. G. L. (Nicholas Geoffrey Lampriere). "The miracle that was Macedonia", Sidgwick & Jackson great civilization series. London: Sidgwick and Jackson; New York: St. Martin's Press, 1991.
P. Hidiroglou "The Pomaks in Greece and their relations with Turkey" (In Greek), Herodotos Publications, 1989.
 
Sorry for the many posts. Lets see you now historian, ha!!
 
I'm not responding to that regurgitation. Certainly not until you clean it up and make it readable. Plotinus, you can probably just shut this thread now. The quality of the debate certainly hasn't improved as you requested. Certainly not with that cut-and-paste job.

EDIT:
Just noticed that while I was responding, you made four more posts, though that doesn't really alter what I put above. Just because you can copy-and-paste from nationalist websites does not make you qualified to make any sort of historical statements or judgements. I could go out and copy-and-paste from StormFront tomorrow, it would in no way prove that the Holocaust never happened. I could copy-and-paste from an Islamist website, which would in no way prove that the Jews were behind 9/11 as an anti-Muslim plot. I could copy-and-paste a Fox News article, which would in no prove that climate change doesn't exist and that Obama is part of the Illuminati.

If you wish to be taken seriously in - or even, with posts like these, to not be banned from participating in - these forums, perhaps you should learn to form your own opinions, and to write your own thoughts, rather than merely echoing the thoughts of like-minded individuals. Critical thought is highly-valued here, which is why a guy like Plotinus is so highly respected, even in areas that aren't his area of expertise. The same with Dachs, LightSpectra, Masada and others - hopefully including myself - who abide by the rules of these forums and conduct themselves in an intelligent, civil manner. It also helps if the posts made here are coherent - I myself have many times requested that r16 be more coherent, because oftentimes I would actually like to respond to his posts, but can never quite figure out what the hell he's saying - and concise.

No one is going to bother ploughing through that monstrosity you just posted; people here have lives and jobs, and no time to deal with such obvious crap. It's not worth the hassle, whereas a similar length post, in your own words, with proper formatting, would likely get responses from many people. As it is, I think you've just doomed you own thread to being locked. But, in the end, considering the quality of your posts in this thread, you'd probably see the silencing of your opposition by this thread's closing as some sort of victory. That's sad, and it's also not a good omen for your future on these forums.
 
I can read it very well and i am greek and not english or american. Ha, you cant reply. And then you say that you know History.
 
I can read it very well and i am greek and not english or american. Ha, you cant reply. And then you say that you know History.
You ninja'd me again. I could read it if I wished, I just see absolutely no need to subject myself to a read in such awful formatting, on a subject I really don't care about, with a debating partner who so obviously isn't worth the time. But you can claim this as some sort of victory if you wish. It doesn't change the fact that you're wrong, or the fact that one single post by me above resulted in you absolutely destroying every ounce of credibilty you had on these forums, and by extension every ounce of credibility your argument has on these forums.

Think about that for a second; by acting in the manner you have, you have single-handedly handed Macedonian nationalists more ammunition against your claims than you ever could have if you'd just not posted at all. In fact, you could have posted an agreement with them and not done so much damage to your own cause. Well-played.
 
EDIT:
Just noticed that while I was responding, you made four more posts, though that doesn't really alter what I put above. Just because you can copy-and-paste from nationalist websites does not make you qualified to make any sort of historical statements or judgements. I could go out and copy-and-paste from StormFront tomorrow, it would in no way prove that the Holocaust never happened. I could copy-and-paste from an Islamist website, which would in no way prove that the Jews were behind 9/11 as an anti-Muslim plot. I could copy-and-paste a Fox News article, which would in no prove that climate change doesn't exist and that Obama is part of the Illuminati.

If you wish to be taken seriously in - or even, with posts like these, to not be banned from participating in - these forums, perhaps you should learn to form your own opinions, and to write your own thoughts, rather than merely echoing the thoughts of like-minded individuals. Critical thought is highly-valued here, which is why a guy like Plotinus is so highly respected, even in areas that aren't his area of expertise. The same with Dachs, LightSpectra, Masada and others - hopefully including myself - who abide by the rules of these forums and conduct themselves in an intelligent, civil manner. It also helps if the posts made here are coherent - I myself have many times requested that r16 be more coherent, because oftentimes I would actually like to respond to his posts, but can never quite figure out what the hell he's saying - and concise.

No one is going to bother ploughing through that monstrosity you just posted; people here have lives and jobs, and no time to deal with such obvious crap. It's not worth the hassle, whereas a similar length post, in your own words, with proper formatting, would likely get responses from many people. As it is, I think you've just doomed you own thread to being locked. But, in the end, considering the quality of your posts in this thread, you'd probably see the silencing of your opposition by this thread's closing as some sort of victory. That's sad, and it's also not a good omen for your future on these forums.

I am sorry if i insulted you. In reality i am very good at writing about history but i dont know very well english. So i prefer to post for other websites. Anyway. Its more easy for you to make me beleive that there is no god and that christianity is false than convice me that macedonia isnt greek.
 
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