Best Seafaring Civ.Dutch or Portuguese?

[AfterShafter]

As far as Naval Civs go my vote goes to the forgotten one, the vikings. Ragnar's financial and lighthouse replacement gives each water tile 2 and 3. the trading post gives the most universal naval advantage. it lasts throughout the game and aplies to everything froom galleys to battleships! Lastly the upgradeable bezerker gives your main battleforce throughout the ages the cost free ability too attack from the sea
I voted for the same strength but later reconsidered when i read about your good points!
GO DUTCH!

Vikings were my choice too.. No idea why they were left out.

 

[paydro]

I won my first game on Emperor with Ragnar, Berzerkers are the illest. They're certainly the best at naval conquest with the combination of the Berzerkers and the Trading Post.

I would have to say that the Portugese UU has POTENTIALLY the greatest impact of any UU in the game. Ultimately all normal units are simply more efficient (better unit for same hammers), except the Indians and the Portugese, who get a benefit that is utterly incomparable.

The problem is that on many maps the advantage is negligible. The Dutch UU is okay, the UB is great, frankly I like them just as a regular civ not accounting for water, but as far as "seafaring" they can't match up with either of the other two.

So it's really rather simple... if you want to conquer, it's Ragnar, if you want to REX, it's Joao. I think that Willem is my favorite leader of the 3, but not for "seafaring" reasons.

 

[sylvanllewelyn]

The Portugese UU can't be compared with anything else. It's ability is limited, but unique.

The Dutch are generally much stronger and much more straightforward though. Hammers are always more of a concern than commerce in coastal cities, and their UU is both powerful and has a long lifespan. I like them even on non-island maps. His traits are also very flexible.

 

[InFlux5]

"Most powerful on the seas"? Dutch.

"Most powerful seafaring civ"? Portuguese.

 

[`DG`]

This is not a tie IMHO. Dikes are more powerful. The difference is not just hammers vs commerce, it's also about city placement. Dikes add hammers to all water tiles, as long as your city is besides some sort of tile with water (river, coast, doesn't matter). In combination with the creative trait, you almost never have to worry about city placement. When I play Willem almost all of my cities are in their optimal spots.

Not sure I follow your point here, Portugese can still have a levee which gives +1 hammer on rivers, so the net bonus of a dike is only the ocean tile hammers.

oh i see, dike works on either either shore or river city placement, while levee only works for river placement. OK I agree this is enough by itself for dike to beat fiorita!

I think the other points are too small to be more than strategy-specific wins but that's all moot now anyway.

 

[thelibra]

Absolutely the Portuguese. I mean, come on, you can transport settlers, workers, military, etc, AGES before anyone else can even get their first Galleon built. On a Terra world, this translates into a godlike advantage as long as you don't get wiped out before you can get a foothold in the new world.

 

[Monkeyfinger]

My favorite is the dutch. But The Vikings are better than both.

^^^Only acceptable answer, and what I came in here to say. *stopped reading the thread upon seeing this post*

EDIT: WTH, this thread's 8 months old. It even predates the actual release of BtS.

 

[Iranon]

Scattered Archipelago - Dutch. If you get to steam power, the game is practically won.

Continents-type map with high sea level - Portugese.

 

[Diamondeye]

Purely considering seafaring as the ability to get an advantage by settling other continents/waging cross-ocean war best or earliest, Portugal is a clear winner:
Their UU, the Carrack, allows for the earliest ocean-crossing voyages in the game. Compared against the Dutch UU, East Indiaman, that just allows a bit more effective and safe oceancrossing at the same tech as any other civ, I'd take Carrack anytime.
Portugals UB, the Feitoria, allows for extra income from working water tiles. Considering we are talking of seafaring, you'll probably want some coastal cities, to get a lot of ships asap. Also, since settling on another continent is more expensive, an extra commerce per water tile worked can do alot for your economy. Comparing to the Dutch UB, the Dike, there is no doubt. The Dike is one of the most overpowered UBs in BtS, but it comes too late considering the issue is seafaring - at steampower the race for the new world will be nearly over unless you're at a huge techlead - not that this is impossible with the dutch, but it does not concern seafaring directly. That said, the Dike is monstrous if you are the first in the new world, as all of your coastal cities will be so much more worth than any other nation, due to the increased hammer output.
Traitwise, both civs have their strength, both in general and considering seafaring:
Joao II of Portugal is Expansive/Imperialistic, a set of nice (or atleast, midtier), traits with great synergy. Offtopic, the Joao II AI plays these traits very well. Considering seafaring, getting settlers and workers out fast is never bad. Paired with extra health, this means that cities settled on the other continent will be able to help settling the new world faster.
Willem Van Oranje of the Netherlands is Financial/Creative, an awesome pair of traits that work well for seafaring - Financial can support a growing overseas empire, and creative helps with landgrab and happiness issues in the new world with its cheap buildings.

In general, Joao of Portugal is a rusher, fast and effective, while Willem is a bit slower, but when he gets there, he is a monster. I'd choose Willem for seafaring in any game where Joao II is not present

 

[bardolph]

What? No love for Hannibal or Ragnar?

 

[gettingfat]

What? No love for Hannibal or Ragnar?

If it's only about seafaring, Hannibal won't be in. But he's one of the best sea-trading leader due to his UB. Ragnar is another good candidate though. Free navigation is just great.

 

[Diamondeye]

What? No love for Hannibal or Ragnar?

If it's only about seafaring, Hannibal won't be in. But he's one of the best sea-trading leader due to his UB. Ragnar is another good candidate though. Free navigation is just great.

Definately, Ragnar should be in here aswell. Just comparing the speed of the colonization, he'd be a few tiles ahead of Willem. Ofcourse, he hasn't got the creative to push borders though, and no colonization UU (atleast not peacful colonization). Hannibal has a too early UU, but UB and traits fit well.

 

[Tephros]

Personally, I'm not at all impressed with the East Indiaman UU. It provides a very short-lived military advantage as frigates come with chemistry, which comes a tech or two after astronomy, if you tech like I do. Frigates make the extra strength of the East Indiaman almost irrelevant, as you should be using frigates to escort your galleons as soon as you have them. Once I have astronomy, often through liberalism, I usually try to get chemistry as quickly as possible so that I can make the most out of privateers.

The carrack, however, is uniquely useful on terra and archipelago maps and gives the Ports a huge lead in getting to the best city locations in the new world. There is no reason to suspect that the Dutch will have a sufficient military advantage to offset this, especially not due to the east indiaman. The Dutch are a builder civ, and an excellent one at that, but the Ports are much more likely to have a military advantage via great generals, unless the Dutch are more advanced due to the financial trait.

Other considerations: On an archipelago map, the feitoria essentially gives the Ports a 3rd trait, financial, though this comes somewhat late in the game. The dutch creative trait is useful, but less useful on archipelago maps where there is less competition for working squares vs. other civs. However, it is true that the Dutch UB is one of the best for maps with a lot of water.

UU: Ports win hands down.
UB: Dutch win.
Traits: I'd say the Dutch have a slight edge, except on terra maps. Imperialistic leaders are better on terra maps because it's so crowded and settlers must be sent out quickly.

I concur that the "powerful seafaring nations" should include Carthage and Vikings in addition to the Dutch and Ports. The Carthaginian UB can make more of an impact on water maps than the Dutch or Port UB as it is available so much earlier. The Viking UB and UU make them very dangerous on water maps.

 

[Diamondeye]

Personally, I'm not at all impressed with the East Indiaman UU. It provides a very short-lived military advantage as frigates come with chemistry, which comes a tech or two after astronomy, if you tech like I do. Frigates make the extra strength of the East Indiaman almost irrelevant, as you should be using frigates to escort your galleons as soon as you have them. Once I have astronomy, often through liberalism, I usually try to get chemistry as quickly as possible so that I can make the most out of privateers.

True, but you forget the aspect that a East Indiaman is equal to a privateer, where normal galleons are inferior 4 against 6.

 

[Incan Emperor]

True, but you forget the aspect that a East Indiaman is equal to a privateer, where normal galleons are inferior 4 against 6.

True, you can fight off Privateers with Indiaman, no need to build so many different naval units.

Indiaman, and assuming I got to chem long before anyone, Privateers, if not, Indiamans all the way.

 

[Tephros]

True, you can fight off Privateers with Indiaman, no need to build so many different naval units.

The indiaman has the same base strength as a privateer, which is a bad gamble if the indiaman is carrying 4 units. The privateer is more likely to see the indiaman first with its sentry promotion, and attack when the indiaman is vulnerable and carrying expensive units. The privateer can also spend time gaining promotions during peacetime by attacking the weakest civilization (that has galleys and caravels) before attacking the indiamen. It is true that the indiaman alone has a much better chance vs. privateers than the galleon, but given ~50/50 odds and the fact that the indiaman has more to lose with its cargo, it's generally still advantageous for the privateer to attack. Note that if the galleon/indiaman is being escorted by a frigate, this is no longer true as the privateer stands no chance of destroying cargo, and little chance of winning at all.

Before frigates it would be best to escort indiamen that have cargo with a stronger indiaman without cargo. But once you have frigates (a short time later) it would be better to escort them with a frigate.

 

[GoliathFF8]

Saying that the Feitoria is better than the Dike honestly does not make any sense at all.

Feitoria gives the Portuguese +1 commerce to every sea tile right? However, the Dutch already have that bonus from the start of the game because of their trait. In order to match the Dutch sea economy, though, the Portuguese actually need to invest hammers into Feitoria's which should be considered expensive considering that most Seafaring maps are short on hammers.

The Dike gives +1 hammer to each water tile, though. Since seafaring maps are short on hammers, this bonus is much more appreciated than simply +1 commerce.

And to anyone arguing over how late the Dike comes - Feitoria and the Dike come at around the same time, Economics and Steam Power are pretty close on the tech line.

Lastly, the Carrack is not as effective at taking over other landmasses due to it's small carrying space. 2 spaces only allow for either a settler and a worker, settler and a military unit, or two military units. You would have to build a considerable navy to be able to plant a city, let alone several cities, that can defend itself and work the tiles around it. East Indiaman doesn't have this problem, and can easily carry a settler, a worker, and two military units. This is especially painful when one realizes that the Carrack costs 60 hammers, while an East Indiaman costs only 80. 2 Carracks (equal carrying space) costs 40 more hammers than an East Indiaman, something that is especially important on seafaring maps due to the aforementioned lack of hammer wealthy tiles.

 

[Tephros]

I don't recall anybody saying that the feitoria was better than the dike, just that the feitoria is still a good UB. Like the galleon, the east indiaman is indeed better for colonizing overseas lands than the carrack, but the carrack is a better uu because the unit it replaces does not allow this at all. It shouldn't be surprising that it is more expensive to use carracks to colonize overseas, or else the carrack would be quite overpowered, but the fact that you can do it so much earlier with the carrack means you will snap up the best spots a full era before the indiaman can exist.

 

[Diamondeye]

Saying that the Feitoria is better than the Dike honestly does not make any sense at all.

Feitoria gives the Portuguese +1 commerce to every sea tile right? However, the Dutch already have that bonus from the start of the game because of their trait. In order to match the Dutch sea economy, though, the Portuguese actually need to invest hammers into Feitoria's which should be considered expensive considering that most Seafaring maps are short on hammers.

The Dike gives +1 hammer to each water tile, though. Since seafaring maps are short on hammers, this bonus is much more appreciated than simply +1 commerce.

And to anyone arguing over how late the Dike comes - Feitoria and the Dike come at around the same time, Economics and Steam Power are pretty close on the tech line.

Lastly, the Carrack is not as effective at taking over other landmasses due to it's small carrying space. 2 spaces only allow for either a settler and a worker, settler and a military unit, or two military units. You would have to build a considerable navy to be able to plant a city, let alone several cities, that can defend itself and work the tiles around it. East Indiaman doesn't have this problem, and can easily carry a settler, a worker, and two military units. This is especially painful when one realizes that the Carrack costs 60 hammers, while an East Indiaman costs only 80. 2 Carracks (equal carrying space) costs 40 more hammers than an East Indiaman, something that is especially important on seafaring maps due to the aforementioned lack of hammer wealthy tiles.

I guess you are arguing against my analysis of the UB question. I was analyzing purely for seafaring, and the Feitoria provides the customs house bonuses PLUS a huge commerce boost for coastal cities - crucial to maintain techlead and an overseas empire at once. Agree, the Dike is nice aswell, perhaps even a little better, but also rolls around a little later. UB-wise, Dutch are the best in this comparison.

Considering the UBs, you forget two things:
1) Carracks come around way before east indiaman. A settler and a proper defender (LB) is enough to grab some land. Workers can be sent / whipped later. Even considering your argument is right and Willem will be more effective at grabbing land in the new world, Joao will be there first. You might need that extra worker to make it worth settling in poorer conditions.
Comparing these 2 UUs, there's no doubt IMHO that Portugal wins the comparison.

Overall therefore, considering seafaring, Portugal would be at an advantage these two civs compared, where as, if you should choose one of them and was guaranteed the other was not present, I might pick Dutch. Might.

Also, arguing that Feitoria is simply a replacement for a trait is nonsense. It's like saying that the greek UB is a replacement for CHA or that the roman is a kind of replacement for PHI. You cannot compare that way.

 

[Monkeyfinger]

Who plays on maps with significantly sized landmasses that don't start with civs on them?

Seriously, come on now. Making up situations that don't actually happen for portugal to be the best at handling is a really transparent attempt to stretch things in their favor.