Nobles' Club 338: Willem van Oranje of the Netherlands

Issue with Glight isn't being isolated but absence of islands for overseas trade routes.
Played to Turn 166 Immortal

Spoiler Turn 166 :

Warrior revealed fish on the West so I actually settled on sugar directly on coast:

Not only do I gain a river cottage, I get worker in 12T and since I have creative culture. I went mining>BW since cows won't be worked on in a while. Knowing I'm isolated, I figured not wasting 10 turns for one cow. After BW, I went TW>Pottery
Then I went on to Masonry>AH and then went for Monarchy by going Myst>Meditation>Priest>Monarchy and switched to HR. Then I went COL, founded CONFU, switched to CS for second scientist, then went back to slavery. Expanded to 11 cities to take the whole continent and ultimately went IW>MC>Compass>Machinery>Optics (Went for math somewhere along the way) then when I went bulb ASTRO I bulbed ALPHA instead lol.

I went to tech ALPHA in 2 turns and found I had to bulb PHIL. I forgot what tech I needed to avoid that so I would up teching it in 4 turns and bulbed ASTRO with my two scientists. Met all the AI's and...well here I am today:

I discovered ASTRO in 800 AD-ish. Is that too late? I know I could've done it a tad sooner but I don't play ISO maps very often haha. I think I'm in a pretty good position despite that. What do you think I should do next? I'm currently teching EDU, might bulb the rest of it if I get another scientist. If I get GE, not sure what to build. I'm far behind some tech but no one has EDU so no AI close to Lib. I'm thinking Libbing steel and rush with East Indiaman. Maybe Cuirs but might be too late? I've never been in this position before:
If I do I can take one of the continents maybe I can vassal a couple of them and go for Space Victory or Domination even.

The alternative is just peacefully tech for Space Victory and do a workshop economy with communism?

What do you'all think?



  • Carlos of the Dutch NC 338 AD-1060.CivBeyondSwordSave
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From T257 to the end
Spoiler :

Since Biz would be my next target, a few knights were sent to Biz' land to scout his army while my units were healing and waiting for the reinforcement.

A knight checked Essen: only 5 units. His main stack must be elsewhere 🧐

Maybe his main army was in the border city Hanover? But there were only 3 units 🧐

A knight scouted the area around Bis' capital. But all these cities only had 3 or 4 units: :hmm:

Finally found his main stack in Munich - only these units??? :dubious: I understood an AI who was never at war tended to have a limited army. But Biz ended a war with Toku not long ago, how could a 16-cities AI have such a tiny army :confused: ? I checked all the other German cities but didn't find any stack bigger than the one in Munich :eek2:.

After all, I needed a large army for the war against Biz, because he already adopted his favorite civic Nationhood. Even Biz' current army looked small, once the war started he would draft Grens like crazy throughout his large empire. The :espionage: showed Biz would get RP soon. He probably queued up Rifling.

The war against Biz was long. He indeed finished Rifling and drafted many units. Killed 30+ Rifles, 20+ Cavs, and 20+ Grens of Biz. Biz was the only enemy who got Rifling and MScience before the capitulation (AC also got Rifling but I was never at war with him, so I didn't consider AC an "enemy"). After losing more than half of his land, Biz finally capitulated.

T300 domination:

AC was cosplaying Pacal II in this game: he founded Hinduism then entered into full wonder-spamming mode :crazyeye:. When I was busy fighting Biz, AC already built UN and Hollywood :eek:.
(And yes, as some people noticed, I captured SoL from Biz :shifty:)

The events at the end of game explained why Biz's army and techs were weird around T250 - T260. Biz lost two cities to Toku. Judging from the city name, Hanover was a late settlement; but Cologne was one of his earliest founded cities (the 3rd screenshot of this post showed Cologne was only 2 tiles from his capital). Losing Cologne definitely hurt Biz's economy.
As you can see in the screenshot below, two wars (me vs Alex; Toku vs Biz) almost broke out simultaneously.

The map also showed Toku aggressively settled on AC's island.

Biz managed to take his cities back with "the help" from Stalin, as Toku was in a two-fronts war. The recapture didn't show in the event log though, maybe because I didn't have Biz' map at that time. The event log in game couldn't show capturing a city which remained unknown to my map.

Capturing a city from Toku in Medieval era is often tough, unless the tech advantage is huge or there's a chance to catch Toku off guard. In Sulla's AI Survival game 6, AI Mehmed lost more than 100 Rifles and Grens but couldn't capture Toku's city (Kaitzilla wrote a detailed analysis here ). Mehmed had Rifling and Grens in the AI survival game 6; but in this game Biz barely got Gunpowder when Toku attacked him. Imagine how many units Biz whipped, built, and lost for taking back the two lost cities. The war against Toku bled Biz dry. That was why Biz fell behind in techs and only had a small army around T257.

Isolation is not suggested when people move up to a new difficulty level, but isolation games can be interesting and educational for those who want to practise the empire management and naval warfare at a difficulty level they're used to. The leader is a strong one for people's first isolation attempt as well: CRE and Agri + Fishing start ensure a fast growth and strong early game; the Dutch UUs and UBs become strong in the mid and late game. The global land shape is quite forgiving: if some new players don't handle the isolation very well and fall behind, they can still find a weak target (the isolated Alex) to attack.

Thanks for the map :)
Spoiler :
I had to check, but it seems you cannot draft Grenadiers even though I don't see a reason why you wouldn't be able to. The Sevopedia says "the drafted unit is the best foot-soldier available to your civilization", but it'll still draft a 9:strength: zero bonuses Musketman when you're able to build 12:strength: +50% vs. Rifleman Grens. I'm assuming it's a weird thing where something from vanilla wasn't updated to include expansion added content.
Spoiler :
How do you draft granadiers?
Spoiler :

You're asking about "how can AI Bismarck draft Grens", I assume? because I never adopted Nationhood in this NC and I couldn't draft anything the whole game.

So it's impossible to draft Grens even after MScience... :think:? I didn't realize that. I thought Grens could be drafted :o. The reality is AI Biz could only draft Muskets even he had Grens. Thanks for pointing that out!

But still, Bismarck's inability to draft Grens didn't change much the outcome, as only 3 turns after I DoW him, he got Rifling. Unlike AI Willem or Pacal who often put Physics before Rifling, AI Biz has "military" flavor and doesn't delay Rifling or MS for long.
Spoiler :

If Bismark had a bunch of maces or crossbows he could certainly upgrade them to grenadiers as well as draft rifles
Emperor normal 1320ad.
Spoiler :
Settled on coastal sugar, decided to go for Glight anyway which I got in 1560bc. Expanded up to 9 coastal cities by 1ad, added a couple inland a bit later. Went for currency, monarchy then astro techs, used first GS for academy, second GS to bulb optics for earlier exploration and researched astro the hard way (760ad). Then went for engineering, CS and invaded Alex with trebs/melee. Bit of a pain because I had to whip everything. Decided to go for lib (fairly standard), I was aiming initially for steel but when I noticed how slow the AI were teching I switched and libbed communism 1280ad a few turns before assimilating the island formerly known as Greece in 1320.

Not doing too badly so far but way out of practice on higher levels so slightly unsure. Maybe go military, research steel>rifling>artillery and pick a target. Could go peaceful I suppose, space would be a bit slow, maybe UN if I can manage diplomacy better than usual.


  • Willem van Oranje AD-1320 Greece.CivBeyondSwordSave
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Last edited:
Emperor normal 1812.
Spoiler :
I was building up some rifles, cannon and east indiamen debating what to do when Napoleon declared on me in 1510, briefly lost a city before counterattacking, Napoleon capped 1575 followed by Stalin 1625, Tokugawa 1660 and Bismark 1735. Augustus proved a lot tougher and didn't give up until I'd razed six of his cities. Started with rifle/cannon and finished with infantry/artillery, a pretty straight forward game though a bit rinse and repeat. Conquest Victory 1812.
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