Best strategy game

[Kaka]

Hi

I've been looking on your youtube channels and noticed that many of you guys are playing other strategy games than Civ.

So, I want to hear: What are your favorite strategy game beside Civilization?

 

[Akka]

Supreme Commander and EU3/4.

 

[Kyriakos]

EU3 was very good indeed (DW and mods). I haven't played EU4 yet, will wait for the expansion(s) first.

Imperialism (1 & 2) were also great games. Imperialism 1 was potentially better, but had some scenario problems at least in the version i had. If there had been the tools/community for modding Imperialism, i think it could have easily rivalled the Civ series in popularity. Unfortunately only a very small community exists, and near to no tools (hex editors and such).

I always loved the KOEI games. Genghis Khan II being my favorite of those

 

[scheva007]

Difference between best and most enjoyable. I know EU is very deep and good, but its too complex for me to really enjoy, therefore i go with Total War. Excellent mix of strategy that doesnt go to deep, and awesome real time battle

 

[Nintz]

I'm going to go old school and say Age of Empires 2. I don't play it a lot anymore, but that's probably because I have 1,000 + hours on it by now. Totally different from Civ, but an awesome game nevertheless.

 

[Akka]

Difference between best and most enjoyable. I know EU is very deep and good, but its too complex for me to really enjoy, therefore i go with Total War. Excellent mix of strategy that doesnt go to deep, and awesome real time battle

I'm also a big fan of the Total War serie, but I'm waiting to see how RTW2 will end up before making the call ^^

The problem is that up to ETW, there was no AI in the strategic map, and it destroys the immersion to see how foes act in a completely random manner.

 

[sophie]

The problem is that up to ETW, there was no AI in the strategic map, and it destroys the immersion to see how foes act in a completely random manner.

That's only true of R and M2. I'd say that before S2TW the M1:TW campaign AI was the only AI to pose a legitimate threat to your being able to survive and succeed.

 

[PhilBowles]

That's only true of R and M2. I'd say that before S2TW the M1:TW campaign AI was the only AI to pose a legitimate threat to your being able to survive and succeed.

I found Empire and Shogun 2 to have very weak strategic AI as well - the changes to the way agents work in Shogun 2 in particular gives the AI serious problems, since high-level agents are all but unstoppable and the AI struggles to level them effectively.

Right now I'm really enjoying Crusader Kings 2, but this too is a game which heavily favours immersion over strategic depth. There certainly is more complexity to the strategic game than Civ or Total War, but there's a very heavy random element (characters gain/lose key traits with strategic repercussions at random, characters will die at random intervals, and the resulting impact on the fortunes of surrounding dynasties can be game-changing), and after a while I'm finding the basic strategy to be somewhat rinse-and-repeat (every time a ruler dies, the vassals are inclined to dislike you, so much of the early reign gets them back onside, then you expand your territory while your realm is internally secure, and then you die and do it all over again).

But even with extremely rudimentary diplomacy (it's a game very much about politics, but don't make the mistake of thinking this means it has to have good diplomacy - the two aren't synonymous) it gives an amazing sense of immersion and identifying with your rivals and vassals as characters. And aside from an exploitable tendency to sit around besieging even if a far superior force is attacking their allies in the next province, the AI is mostly fairly capable (though from the stats of the prisoners I keep taking, it makes bizarrely terrible decisions about who to use to lead its armies).

I got an unpleasant surprise when I was on the verge of winning a holy war, only for my opponent to decide it was the perfect time to convert to Catholicism - with the end result that the war ended and I made no territorial gains at all. The AI also knows to do exactly what the player does - to take advantage of civil wars and rebellions to invade and conquer your territory.

In my session today, I had all but two territories in England, and had almost finished taking Leicester. Unfortunately my ruler chose that moment to die, his replacement was extremely unpopular (not paying enough attention to my dynasty's and vassals' culture, I'd ended up with England being populated mostly by Irish nobility, who don't much like an Anglo-Saxon ruler), and they rebelled. The subsequent king (I was relegated to a prince) lost York and the north to two Viking realms. During the subsequent succession war, Mercia and Cornwall took the opportunity to declare independence, so what I got back wasn't much more than I'd had as Duke of Wessex and Lancaster. And now even that's rebelling...

 

[sophie]

Nothing to say about the actual point of my post?

 

[PhilBowles]

Nothing to say about the actual point of my post?

The Shogun 2 AI still doesn't pose a "legitimate threat to your being able to survive and succeed". It's more difficult to survive the later game because of the new realm divide mechanic - but that hasn't changed AI performance or behaviour. In Medieval II you could get piled on by most of the AIs in the game and you'd risk losing then as well. Shogun 2 merely forces that to happen at a specific game stage (and one the player can manipulate in his favour by delaying conquest to maximise your army before hitting the critical province to trigger realm divide).

I raised the point I did for a reason: flaws like the AI's inability to cope with agents are crippling to its ability to play the strategic game. It will end up fighting peasant revolts constantly, sticking several giant stacks together only to have all but one sabotaged so you can take them out one by one, and you can weaken it further by buying its provinces.

Empire and Napoleon, by the way, work exactly as M2 and Rome do, so once again the problem is not by any means "only true of R and M2".

 

[Cryptic_Snow]

EU3 was very good indeed (DW and mods). I haven't played EU4 yet, will wait for the expansion(s) first.

Imperialism (1 & 2) were also great games. Imperialism 1 was potentially better, but had some scenario problems at least in the version i had. If there had been the tools/community for modding Imperialism, i think it could have easily rivalled the Civ series in popularity. Unfortunately only a very small community exists, and near to no tools (hex editors and such).

I always loved the KOEI games. Genghis Khan II being my favorite of those

You might be the first person that I've ever heard of liking Genghis Khan II. The first NES game was great. The second version on the SNES was pretty horrid. My biggest gripe was that they made it a 2 player game. The original you could have up to 4 players. I much prefer playing war sims/strategy games with a group of people, much more fun that way. The combat also seemed very child-like the way the units were drawn. I still play the original occasional with friends though.

 

[Cryptic_Snow]

What's the best multi-player game? I usually play games with a group of 3-4 friends, and sometimes even more than that. What games do you guys recommend?

 

[Nintz]

What's the best multi-player game? I usually play games with a group of 3-4 friends, and sometimes even more than that. What games do you guys recommend?

While most RTS games are usually better for large groups of MP, such as Age of Empires 2, Rise of Nations, or Empire Earth, I actually really really enjoy the Civ V MP. I'm typically not a fan of Civ V in general (more a fan of IV), but after playing it with a few of my friends in a few games I get what a lot more the game was going for. I have not yet seen a strategy game that's better for MP, unless your group has many hours, patience, and good strategies. In which case I would probably say Crusader Kings 2 or Europa Universalis 4. Those games have much better potentially, but it is difficult to ensure that everything works out just right.

 

[GAGA Extrem]

Warcraft III was quite nice when it came out.
All the paradox games are great.
Supreme Commander was a worthy successor to Total Annihilation.
The Anno series is good for peaceful builders.
Age of Empires 2 was fantastic for its time.
Company of Heroes was a superb arcade WW2 strategy game.
Men of War, on the other hand, is an ultra-realistic RTS...
...and reminds me of good old Sudden Strike, another great 2D RTS.
And for those who like turn based stuff: Combat Mission: Barbarossa to Berlin or Combat Mission: Africa Corps. A fantastic WE-GO system and ultra realistic units.
Sins of a Solar Empire is still a good slower space RTS.
And while a bit flawed and repetitive, Endless Space can be a lot of fun. The planets look SO awesome...

 

[Akka]

That's only true of R and M2. I'd say that before S2TW the M1:TW campaign AI was the only AI to pose a legitimate threat to your being able to survive and succeed.

The Shogun 2 AI still doesn't pose a "legitimate threat to your being able to survive and succeed". It's more difficult to survive the later game because of the new realm divide mechanic - but that hasn't changed AI performance or behaviour. In Medieval II you could get piled on by most of the AIs in the game and you'd risk losing then as well.

The problem isn't as much about "legitimate threat" (the AI can't handle a good player in battle anyway, so it needs ridiculous advantages to really be dangerous) as it's about feeling you have actually other leader to face.

Yep, MTW1 was okay in this way, but RTW and MTW2 (and maybe ETW, I didn't play it, I don't like muskets) were just completely RANDOM. Everything could happen everytime without the slightest logical reason, and the armies just wandered on the map without purpose.

STW2, regardless of the AI being skilled/dangerous or not, managed to keep the suspension of disbelief and to make you feel like you had actual opponents/allies. If you were in war, they would plan and launch attacks, if you were at peace they would not just declare war out of the blue just to ask for a truce two turns later and then re-declare war the next turn.

 

[Red Key]

My favorite strategy games besides Civ4 are the Age of Wonders series (as some on this forum already know ). They are not as complex as some the other ones mentioned on here. AoW is mainly focused on combat but it does it very well. When you attack a hex on the map all armies in surrounding hexes are drawn into a turn-based battle which takes places on a tactical map that is separate from the game's world/strategic map. This means up to 7 armies could be in one battle.

AoW games can take a long time, so if your friends don't mind this it is great for multiplayer. The best game for multiplayer in the series would be Age of Wonders: Shadow Magic. Each player chooses a race to lead from among 15 different fantasy races. I recommend Shadow Magic for multiplayer because it was the last AoW game released and had more polished game mechanics. It also has randomly generated maps if you don't want to use the included maps for multiplayer. The best single player campaign in the series is in the original AoW.

I'm looking forward to AoW3 which is set to be released Q1 2014.

 

[PhilBowles]

EU3 was very good indeed (DW and mods). I haven't played EU4 yet, will wait for the expansion(s) first.

The Paradox forums (at least the CKII forum) seems to have its own version of the Civ V Rants Thread, and the rants about EU4 are basically identical to those about Civ V from Civ IV diehards - "dumbed down", everything revolves around a simplified system of (in this case three) arbitrary points systems, the key expansion mechanic is unpopular and/or not working as intended, "why make a game whose only challenge is in expansion, and then limit the ability to expand?" etc.

So, based on the Civ V reality compared with the Civ V rants, EU IV is probably very good...

The problem isn't as much about "legitimate threat" (the AI can't handle a good player in battle anyway, so it needs ridiculous advantages to really be dangerous) as it's about feeling you have actually other leader to face.

You're referring to the diplomacy system, and I really don't get that feel in Shogun 2. It does just feel like manipulating scores on a sliding scale - when so much of diplomacy revolves around "how long do I have before this alliance wears off?" and checking the tooltip to see how long, once realm divide hits, I have to go before I send another bribe, it's very hard to see the AI factions as distinct, especially since there's no personality system and every AI reacts exactly the same way to the same suite and level of modifiers. It's a very rudimentary, Civ III and earlier style of diplomacy system. Especially when it's so easy, on the one hand, to manipulate AIs into acting against their interests, and on the other once realm divide has taken place for a longstanding ally to turn against you "just because". If anything I felt M2's AIs had more sense of identity, and those not much.

It's better than Empire, but then in Empire my only full game was with the Maratha who are uniquely badly-placed to work with the diplomacy system (the only relevant factions to your victory are implacable enemies)

 

[Ailedhoo]

My favourite strategy games other than Civ include the following:

Command and Conquer Tiberium Dawn and Sun plus Red Alert (I and II): excellent fun and overview! Love the music and Kane is a excellent villain. Dawn continued the glory of Dune II, Red Alert set a new standard for PC games, Sun had some interesting environment mechanics (plus base gates! ) and RA II was as funny as Hell.

Heroes of Might and Magic 2-4: number 1 was among my first ever games but it improved greatly in 2 and 3 carried to a new marvel. 4 is controversial but I like it! The game series has a excellent flow and music is grand. I also like the whole themes set to have a grander to it.

WarCraft II-III: good world and number 3 had excellent factions! The RPG mechanics of 3 also made map editor could have fun; fancy Diablo using WarCraft as your setting? Use the map editor! Also great music.

Total Annihilation: "brilliant" would be a understatement. Music is a legend on itself, army scales are amazing, the "gun vs. gun" aspect forces focus on tactical consideration and basically a grand game.

StarCraft: I have not played II (yet) but the legend be noted.

Dungeon Keeper 1-2: funny as Hell (no pun attended ) and excellent strategic notions. Play if you fancy to try out a British classic.

Crusader Kings 2: peril to thee who notices the hours I spend on this game! Deep character interaction, a not too complex mechanic. See the fun of making the Sultanate of Ireland, observing the Aztecs taking Rome (viva la alterative history DLC), dominating the Mongols as Venice or demonstrating the glories of the Norse by reforming the faith and taking over Europe with your raids!

Alpha Centauri: ok this is cheating since its basically "Civilization IN ANOTHER WORLD!" but this is forgiven by the political depth, ecological mechanics and the whole "design your own units" thing. Also it is as quotable as chocolate be delicious.

XCOM: UFO Defender and XCOM: Enemy Unknown: defend humanity from a coalition of colourful (and scary, especially with the chrysallids) invaders. The music is awesome and the research is great! The original has excellent base deployment, while the reimagining keeps up with the energy, worthy of sitting on the XCOM throne.

Age of Empire 2 and Mythology: 1 is awesome (especially with music) but 2 is WOW! Excellent unit sets and epic campaigns. Age of Mythology meanwhile does a great notion in making the 3 powers special in their own ways.

Dwarf Fortress: although its complexity may cause issue in getting use to this game the possibilities from it is grand. Enjoy the exploration, create/dig a great fortress, defend yourself against goblins, hate elves, fear undead fish and prepare to embrace the term "LOSING IS FUN!" for that is the way this game goes! There is also a rouge mode, allowing you to explore your fortresses as a adventurer!



Then are the additional high places:

The Pikmin series: not a traditional strategy series but it manages to bring a strategy to consoles while fitting with consoles. Also I like exploration! The game series has great music. I have only played the start of 1 and not tried 2 but these games deserve the high praise they earn. 3 is great, especially with the tasking element.

Little King's Story: take Pikmin, place in a Medieval setting, centre in a colourful town, have your aim be taking over the world; that be this game! The music composes of remixed classical music and the characters are humouring.

Evil Genius: Dungeon Keeper WITH BOND SUPER VILLAINS! Enjoy the fun of a mission to shrink and steal the Eifel Tower, while combating lowly investigators to super agents with traps and minions, including henchmen. The game suffers in replay value (you will have a total of 2 isles, not counting the tutorial) and the game can be very easy late game (even on hard) but it is fun to take over the world!

Galactic Civilization II: the customising nature of the game (especially with ships) is notable along with a advance A.I. that loves to plot. The game suffers in the music department but it is fun.

Startopia: a British classic that sees you oversee a space station. Provide tourists with joy, care for the health of the ill, defend against hostility, manage the environment of the top deck to garden results, enjoy the catchy music and lol as much as possible to the game's humour.

MechCommander 1-2: set in the BattleTech universe you command a squad of mechs against other mechs.

Syndicate: more a real time tactics game but enjoy commanding your cyborg agents in this cyberpunk setting against others who want to proclaim themselves the title of "the Man." Dominate the world: violent corporate warfare style! Syndicate 2 is good too....but do forsake the "sequel" EA released recently.

Europa Universalise 3-4: while not as accessible as Crusader Kings 2 the depths of these games are legendry. Enjoy the music, the possibility of making small nations dominate the world and learn to embrace France as the final boss she truly is!

Master of Magic: play as a wizard in a civ like game! Research is set to spells while you get to explore two worlds! Limited in diplomacy however with the 2 victory conditions disallowing the possibility of a peaceful game. Still a great classic.

Earth 2150: the Earth is going to die! Humanity must flee... by the three large factions fighting each other to see who gets to launch their ship! Enjoy customising units, good music, good environment and the joy of the Lunar Corporation's weather control device in how it truly masters the control of the weather.

The Battle for Wesnoth: a open source tactical game with diverse powers and good music.

StarWars: Empire at War: the space combat is the thing most recommended here, especially with the fun of ordering your rebel forces to bring down a star destroyer or go on a planet killing rampage with the Death Star. Did I mention you can command the Emperor in land combat while the AT-AT proves itself boss with its UNLIMITED STORMTROOPERS or command what are basically mammoth tanks as the rebels while rocketing down those AT-STs?

Tropico 4: can I count simulations as strategy? If so enjoy ruling a Caribbean isle in this Cold War black comedy! Alas I have only played number 4.

Emperor: Battle for Dune: the only game based on Dune I played. Excellent music and good faction notions.

Ok... technically I have been listing strategy games I played but these games are awesome.

 

[Thrawn]

What's the best multi-player game? I usually play games with a group of 3-4 friends, and sometimes even more than that. What games do you guys recommend?

I'm gonna suggest Starcraft 2, even though I know that most people on these forums don't really seem to enjoy it. You only need 1 person in the group to own the full version these days too, others in the group only need free trial accounts and they'll get bumped up to pretty much all the features of the full version when they join a party with the person who owns it. Pretty nice for playing with friends who aren't sure about buying it I think.

 

[PhilBowles]

I'm gonna suggest Starcraft 2, even though I know that most people on these forums don't really seem to enjoy it. You only need 1 person in the group to own the full version these days too, others in the group only need free trial accounts and they'll get bumped up to pretty much all the features of the full version when they join a party with the person who owns it. Pretty nice for playing with friends who aren't sure about buying it I think.

Not sure what they're like to play competitively, but in a technical sense I'd rate Company of Heroes and its sequel as the best RTS games out there. They are much more tactical than strategic in focus, though. My opinion that CoH2 isn't as good as the first game seems to be the majority view, but CoH2 is still a very capable RTS.