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Best Traits for Monarch and Beyond...

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Strategy & Tips' started by DarkSchneider, Nov 16, 2005.

  1. Si_Lurker

    Si_Lurker Warlord

    Joined:
    Oct 13, 2004
    Messages:
    107
    Why is everyone thinking industrious -> wonders.

    Thing industrious -> forges -> hammers -> units.

    There might be better traits, but on such difficulty, making forges ASAP to boost your productivity should be a priority.
     
  2. pcasey

    pcasey Chieftain

    Joined:
    Aug 23, 2005
    Messages:
    19
    On lower difficulty levels I was a big fan of philisophical/financial, but I can't seem to run a builder game at prince or above so I tend to pick civs based on their applicability for rushing. Right now that means Rome because a build nothing but praetorians and barracks pretty much works up until gunpowerder. It gets my vote for most hugely overpowered UU.
     
  3. Heroes

    Heroes Heroes of Might and Magic

    Joined:
    May 19, 2005
    Messages:
    869
    I guess industrial is still useful, at least for fast forges. Besides, AI has no bonus for building wonders, so you do have great chance to get some early wonders.

    Aggressive is great, but the free combat 1 is only for foot units. So how about trying Persia or Egypt for their chariot UU rush?

    I don't see see why financial is not helpfu. A costal tile, a cottage near river, or a hamlet anywhere all get the +1 commerce, and you don't need many turns to make these.

    Organized only halves civic upkeep. I bet the only expensive civic you are using is organized religion, isn't it? It's also nice for fast courthouses, but you need code of laws first.
     
  4. Shillen

    Shillen Deity

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2003
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    2,122
    Location:
    MA
    That I didn't know. Does that apply to projects like spaceship parts as well?
     
  5. WoundedKnight

    WoundedKnight Warlord

    Joined:
    May 28, 2002
    Messages:
    253
    Expansive is a good choice -- that is, if you are able to generate adequate happiness to support city size.

    Beyond that, I haven't seen anyone mention philosophical, which is an excellent choice on any difficulty level. Extra great people == extra wonders, increased productivity, extra culture, etc. Philosophical is a great all-around trait that is hard to go wrong with.
     
  6. TheDuckOfFlanders

    TheDuckOfFlanders the fish collecter

    Joined:
    May 21, 2001
    Messages:
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    Location:
    pond 59
    Financial is still great on the harder levels.Go for pottery soon ,build cottages near rivers and work them like crazy early on to get to towns and lots of money/research soon.Early cottages are crucial for tech advantage.I love cottages in floodplains ,they still have 3 food so they still mean growth for youre city ,but not to much as to limit youre growth at one point but have excess food to allow you to work mines.

    My favourite terrain to start on is some floodplains ,some forests ,and some gold/sliver/gems mines. (early luxury's)
     
  7. Verax

    Verax Chieftain

    Joined:
    Nov 6, 2002
    Messages:
    39
    Location:
    Seattle

    I love philosophical! One thing to note however for the multiplayers. I play multiplayer co-op quite a bit. When your partner pops a great person, it bumps your's by 50. So...

    First GP:
    Person 1 - 100pts
    Person 2 - 100pts

    person 1 gets a GP
    now:
    Person 1 - 200pts
    Person 2 - 150pts

    So there the game is slowing down both players when one team member pops one. I'm not sure if this is a bug or designed, but that's the way it is working now. So it is not advisable to have 2 philo players on the same team.

    Verax
     
  8. caseywills

    caseywills Chieftain

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2003
    Messages:
    9
    Location:
    Houston
    I really enjoyed the previous post about the Quechua rush. thanks for the show and tell.

    The most important part of the game is the beginning. It is crucial to get a good jump at the gun. For this reason, units/traits that help you late in the game are of no concern to me. Picking the best traits to give you that jump early on is the key to winning at higher levels.

    I have found that almost every strategy that can be successful at a high level can be very easily thwarted by circumstances, ie. A military strategy can be cut short by a lack of copper/horses. An expansion strategy can be halted by multiple neighbors dropping cities on your borders. And a growth strategy can be beaten by others building the wonders you need first or a lack of happiness resources.

    Okay, that being said, flexibility is very important. Financial is a good trait for this reason--money can be used to do many different things. However, the best trait is not Financial. I know everyone else swears by it, but this is because it is always very useful--not because it is the best. The best trait will be the one that exactly matches your strategy, and you must have a very specific strategy if you want to win on higher levels, and it must give you a jump start EARLY in the game. Financial will sort of help you early in the game, but it does not give you that jump you will need to beat your foes.

    There are two main strategies. I have only read about the military rush, but I have used the growth strategy to win a couple games on Emperor level.

    Strategy #1: Early Military Rush
    Aggressive is the best trait if you want to rush early. It has an amazing impact on early wars since no one can get the theocracy/vassalage civics. The only way to get lots of experience is with aggressive/barracks.

    Strategy #2: Pyramids for Growth & Science
    Industrious is the best trait if you want to build the pyramids and get to republic early. This will give you a big jump in city growth/science. You may be able to build pyramids without Industrious trait but even with stone the AI at Emperor level can beat you to the wonder and leave you heartbroken.

    In my opinion, these are the best two traits, but you do not need both of them, just one. They are the best because they cater to a very specific strategy that will get you a win. To pick your leader you then consider pairing one of these traits with a helper trait + Unique Unit and starting tech (hopefully mining).

    Financial/Organized are great helper traits for the Military strategy. Organized is only useful if you have many many cities, so it won't help you win the rush, but once you win the rush, it will help you win the game.

    Spiritual/Philosophical/Financial/Expansive are great for the Pyramids/Growth strategy. (but there is no Industrious/Philosophical leader unfortunately).

    Creative is not a very good trait. I know it can get you your resources earlier, but it does not prevent your opponents from stealing resources that are two tiles away by dropping a city right on your borders. Creative simply does not fit into a viable winning strategy. It is nice to get cheap theaters, but it helps you too late to be a significant boost IMO.

    Here is my ranking for traits:

    Military Rush
    --------------------------------
    Aggressive
    Financial
    Organized
    Expansive
    Industrious
    Philosophical
    Spiritual
    Creative

    Pyramids/Growth
    --------------------------------
    Industrious
    Philosophical
    Financial
    Expansive
    Aggressive
    Spiritual
    Creative
    Organized


    Traits are not as unbalanced as most people think. Every trait can be useful. I think the Unique Unit is the most important factor in a military strategy and if you choose to play as India, the Unique Unit "fast worker" can also be amazingly helpful in a growth strategy. Having the starting traits Mining / Hunting can also give you a boost early on by allowing for quicker worker/chop and the hunting tech gives you a scout.

    Here is my ranking for Leaders:

    Military Rush
    --------------------------------
    Huayna Capac
    Cyrus (missed him in the first post of this message)
    Julius Caesar
    Mansa Musa
    Genghis Khan
    Napoleon


    Pyramids/Growth
    --------------------------------
    Gandhi
    Qin Shi Huang
    Bismark
    Napoleon
    Elizabeth
    Peter

    It was very surprising for me, when doing this analysis to find out just how valuable Gandhi was. There hasn't been alot of talk about him, but he is truly awesome. The fast worker combined with mining initial tech gives you a good jump right from the start. The fast worker continues to speed up expansion / growth as long as you have forests to chop and resources to harvest. Gandhi is industrious so you can beat the AI to Pyramids if you find stone, and once there you can switch to Republic without anarchy. All in all Gandhi is definately the fastest leader for going with a Growth strategy.

    I think it is also worth mentioning that some leaders are very flexible and can use both strategies since they have traits/units capable of extracting value from different tactics.

    Hybrid Leaders
    --------------------
    Mansa Musa
    Huayna Capac
    Napoleon
    Qin Shi Huang
    Victoria/Elizabeth
     
  9. Heroes

    Heroes Heroes of Might and Magic

    Joined:
    May 19, 2005
    Messages:
    869
    Great analysis! How about Cyrus? He is creative, which is not too good. However, immortal rush is great. At least a captured city can gain 2 culture per turn, then you easily control big territory.
     
  10. Ungar

    Ungar Chieftain

    Joined:
    Nov 14, 2005
    Messages:
    35
    I only got to play a couple rounds of my diety game last night and I'm gonna restart it..

    I ran out of cash and my units started to disband even with all my cities concentrating on commerce.

    I made one bad decision to go for meditation to get monastaries built to spread religion, but religon doesn't generate enough gold.

    Instead of Wheel, Mining, Bronzeworking, Priesthood, Writing, Meditation, Mathematics, Currency. I never made it through mathematics, gonna go for:

    Wheel, Mining, Bronzeworking, Pottery, Mathematics, Currency..

    Pottery should let me build huts to generate more cash. Getting currency is critical so I can just turn hammers into wealth until markets get built and huts turn into villages, etc..

    Gonna skip building settlers two extra cities doesn't help my financial situation when I got plenty of cities out there I can take over. I need to grow my cities to work more squares anyways.

    Is tech trading not available at Diety? The spanish keep offering peace treatys, but I can't get them to offer any techs even though I know writing.

    On Monarch I went with Qin Shi Huang with a Stone square near my first city. Worker Chop to rush settlers and Stonehenge and Pyramids made it easy.
     
  11. local

    local Chieftain

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2003
    Messages:
    24
    ya i kinda think too, that financial is overpowered.

    I was playing random civ on lakes standard map (wich 6? 7? civ).
    I was playing and i was doing good in mid game. And after reading this thread i realised i got perfect englih leader (some ugly b) fin/exp... It is good combo .. First you expand as fast as posible taking all nearby valubale resources ASAP (picking hapiness over health res)). Exp trait lets you expand fairly so you take good share of land , thus resourcer.Then when u establish a base, spam cottages all over!!
    . It made me most advanced civ most of the game(except early begining).
    I was aiming for liberalism and democracy in mid game. Universal suff gaave me production to those cities, and free speech even more $$ . Forgot to mention, this was emperor game.

    Diplomacy was hard.. They were all buging to stop trading with others and such things. This is kind a silly since there is no chance, you can please all. You have to pick sides and there is someone always who you wil make him mad. My tactic was not to make very good friends/very mad enemies, but keep em all half mad/half pleased.
    This is , because i never experienced any benefit from a friend AI civ. If you are a tech leader, you dont need them. Due to fast expanding, you gained resources so you can trade even more, and that gives you even more happines/health. I was reading some ppl say that expansive sucks since the hapines is the prob. Well if ur expansive, you get more land then usual, thus more reources, + more resources to trade.. increased realtions, etc.

    anyway , all victory conditions were ON. So in this case the easiest(and only) way to win was spaceship. Domination or conquer is out of the option once you have spaceship in. This is kind a silly to me but thats how it is. It should be like when you check "spaceship vic allowed" , there shud be automatic uncheck on conquest or domination , since its imposible, at least on emperor.

    Anyway on next empror game, im turning this stupid spaceship off. It makes game boring and the games ends too fast. 1940 or sth.

    Anyway at diplomacy I didnt manage to stay out of war. The f Saladin attacked me from the right side with biliion cavarly, and i just got infatry.
    Well to be honest, i had to load 2 times :). I went 100 year back and he attacked me at same date. Only that time i didnt have 3 defending tropps (redcoat or inf) but i needed about 7 of them in the exposed city, less in other 2. + defending wars are expensive too. And its not easier since, you get pillaged all ur towns and eveyrthing. Good thing is Ai is stupid and he only pillages untill he comes to city, then just attack.
    True he had cavarly but, under military politics, he build upgraded cavarly, which were beating my 1 upgrade infatry.

    And about techpace, Of course it is fast since AI researches much faster then you + tech trading. Ye but still, its a little too fast, but not too much.
    If ur running 90% research fund most of the game then yea, you research all fast, but if ur making lot of wars meanwhile, then techpace is ok
     

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