Best Wonder?

[NihilZero]

I don't understand how to use hanging gardens really well. It feels like it could be very strong, but it never quite plays out that way (perhaps due to a lack of cities on higher difficulties). An aqueduct alone has a pretty high opportunity cost.

It's the acqueduct that kills it. And it's not all that great of a wonder. +1 health is pretty minor considering that a granary plus all grain resources gives you +6 total, +1 population is no big deal either considering the average growth rate of a city. How fast do your cities take to grow back 1 pop after a whip? Not so long.

The only reason I ever really want it is for the GPP, if you have stone then you may already have the 'mids so the HG completes the set, so to speak.

 

[EvanMeisterX]

Well, since the Apostolic Palace isn't on the list, I'm voting for The Great Wall. It's great, especially when one of those barbarian uprising events occurs. One major exception, though, is on Archipelago maps. Then it's not good.

 

[Darth Caesar]

Well, since the Apostolic Palace isn't on the list, I'm voting for The Great Wall. It's great, especially when one of those barbarian uprising events occurs. One major exception, though, is on Archipelago maps. Then it's not good.

 

[AutomatedTeller]

One of the things I really like about Civ IV is that none of the wonders (except AP) are game breaking. Civ III, Pyramids was huge - granaries in every city was an enormous advantage. And with scientific leaders, they could just get built!!

There is no wonder with that sort of impact in Civ IV, and I think that's excellent.

 

[Darth Caesar]

One of the things I really like about Civ IV is that none of the wonders (except AP) are game breaking. Civ III, Pyramids was huge - granaries in every city was an enormous advantage. And with scientific leaders, they could just get built!!

There is no wonder with that sort of impact in Civ IV, and I think that's excellent.

 

[EvanMeisterX]

They also had some ridiculous wonders is Civ3. Like Magellan's Voyage was like a playground. Weird.

 

[Ataxerxes]

They also had some ridiculous wonders is Civ3. Like Magellan's Voyage was like a playground. Weird.

Another very powerful and somewhat weird wonder was the Statue of Zeus, giving you an Ancient Cavalry every 5 turns until the end of the medieval period. That one wonder would give you a good portion of your military (and the best units) for most of the game. It made Ivory so important. I wouldn't go crazy for Pyramids, but I would for statue of Zeus.

I also agree that it's good that, except for the AP, none of the wonders were that tremendous in CivIV.

 

[vicawoo]

It's the acqueduct that kills it. And it's not all that great of a wonder. +1 health is pretty minor considering that a granary plus all grain resources gives you +6 total, +1 population is no big deal either considering the average growth rate of a city. How fast do your cities take to grow back 1 pop after a whip? Not so long.

The only reason I ever really want it is for the GPP, if you have stone then you may already have the 'mids so the HG completes the set, so to speak.

Growing time is underrated. It's the infinitesimal argument: it feels like I just have to wait a few turns, and a few turns of costing virtually nothing sums up to nothing.
A similar analogy is anarchy, you wait one turn, but the empire cost is often pretty large.
Due to slavery, we're accustomed to be view regrowing as a small cost, but from turn 100 to 150, 10 turns is a very long time.

Some people measure the value of hanging gardens by worst case whipping the one population across the whole empire. What you can do with one extra population is a big problem for the following reasons:
1) you often lack extra happiness due to going early mathematics (except ottomans)
2) with your available happiness you probably can and are working the really good tiles (specials, riverside cottages, riverside mines).
2b) so you probably end up on a non-riverside cottage, a coastal, or worse an unhappy citizen.
3) you may not have so many cities, each of which increase the total bonus, due to the economic impact and having to get hanging gardens fast.

On the other hand, if you have a lot of food, one extra population means you can start running a lot of specialists (if you had code of laws in addition to mathematics) that much sooner.
Maybe it's best to think about the total food increase hanging gardens gives to your empire.

 

[Derakon]

How does the Hanging Gardens work, anyway? Does it just bump up each city's population by 1 at the time that it's built? I used to think it meant "all my cities will forever have one more population than they otherwise would" which would be pretty awesome, except it's blatantly false since you can still have population-1 cities after building the gardens...

 

[Higher Game]

Hanging Gardens are a great wonder. Health, pops, and great engineer points, at a reasonable price. Stone, industrious, Ottomans, or Khmer = build it every time. Some philosophical guys make great use of it, too.

The Great Library is probably the best just because of the path it's on. The epics, the music artist, military tradition, theater happiness, etc. Other wonders tend to force you to go out of the way.

 

[Ataxerxes]

How does the Hanging Gardens work, anyway? Does it just bump up each city's population by 1 at the time that it's built? I used to think it meant "all my cities will forever have one more population than they otherwise would" which would be pretty awesome, except it's blatantly false since you can still have population-1 cities after building the gardens...

You're right. It just bumps up each current city's population by 1. It also adds 1 health to each city. Not an awesome wonder.

Yes, they could have worded their description of what the wonder did better. It's almost as bad as the Civilopedia not telling us about the 2 extra hammers per religious building in the AP religion. I never suspected that until I came to the forums.

 

[Higher Game]

You're right. It just bumps up each current city's population by 1. It also adds 1 health to each city. Not an awesome wonder.

It's not crazy-expensive like the Pyramids (net cost is only about 200 hammers, due to the value of the pop) and it doesn't suck like the Hagia Sophia. It's on a solid tech path. It's one of the best ways to grab great engineers; the health is just gravy.

It's vastly superior to Stonehenge; the pop boost is perfect for monument whipping, and you're left with sweet sweet engineer points instead of prophet pollution.

 

[bestbrian]

Toss up between GL and GLH, so I'll pick GLH just because it's my favorite (I'm also quite keen on TGD, but that's just me).

 

[NihilZero]

Growing time is underrated. It's the infinitesimal argument: it feels like I just have to wait a few turns, and a few turns of costing virtually nothing sums up to nothing.
A similar analogy is anarchy, you wait one turn, but the empire cost is often pretty large.
Due to slavery, we're accustomed to be view regrowing as a small cost, but from turn 100 to 150, 10 turns is a very long time.

Some people measure the value of hanging gardens by worst case whipping the one population across the whole empire. What you can do with one extra population is a big problem for the following reasons:
1) you often lack extra happiness due to going early mathematics (except ottomans)
2) with your available happiness you probably can and are working the really good tiles (specials, riverside cottages, riverside mines).
2b) so you probably end up on a non-riverside cottage, a coastal, or worse an unhappy citizen.
3) you may not have so many cities, each of which increase the total bonus, due to the economic impact and having to get hanging gardens fast.

On the other hand, if you have a lot of food, one extra population means you can start running a lot of specialists (if you had code of laws in addition to mathematics) that much sooner.
Maybe it's best to think about the total food increase hanging gardens gives to your empire.

The true value of one population point is hard to evaluate, since it varies so widely. In a food rich city, population can grow faster than you can improve tiles. After whipping, cities often grow right back the next turn. At the other extreme, if you are under pressure to grab land fast and crank out settlers you may be forced to have one-pop cities making workers, or you may have one or more cities that are objectively bad in terms of food and everything else but which are necessary to grab a resource.

If you have a lot of the latter kind of cities that are taking forever to grow, the HG can be good. Interestingly, you can often end up with cities that are struggling to get on their feet as a result of delayed expansion after wonder building. Say you have stone, you grab the 'mids, which leaves you needing to catch up in terms of city count. Hence you have a high number of young cities and not enough workers. In this case the HGs are pretty decent as they help your post-wonder catch up - by building another wonder, oddly enough.

The aqueduct requirement is still a royal pain, though, because you have to invest huge hammers in something that is unlikely to benefit you at all for quite a while, all so you can take a gamble on getting a wonder that somebody else will probably get first.

 

[Windsor]

The hanging gardens can, on mid-levels, pay itself back simply by whipping the population you got. It's a 100+300 wonder, so not very expensive. At civil service(and a few hammers more) it would have been great since CS is much easier to have a monopoly on than mathematics.

However, as the best wonder I did vote Great Library(since AP isn't in the poll).

- Very nice synergy with the Parthenon(is it just me or is this underrated?) and the NE
- Tech also unlocks Heroic Epic
- Aesthetics is trade bait #1
- It's early enough to make a difference
- It's late enough so expansion is mostly over and you don't need to dedicate the whole empire just to get it.
- Price is fair and mathematics will often make it easy to chop out
- Straight out benefit is good
- You can usually predict if your going to get it before you need to invest a lot of beakers/hammers.

To sum it up: Nice risk/reward ratio and solid synergy.

GLH and Pyramids provide an either bigger reward, but the risk is higher than I can live with.

 

[Ataxerxes]

It's not crazy-expensive like the Pyramids (net cost is only about 200 hammers, due to the value of the pop) and it doesn't suck like the Hagia Sophia. It's on a solid tech path. It's one of the best ways to grab great engineers; the health is just gravy.

It's vastly superior to Stonehenge; the pop boost is perfect for monument whipping, and you're left with sweet sweet engineer points instead of prophet pollution.

No, I agree. I don't think it's that awesome, but you're right, it's pretty cheap and often worthwhile. It isn't the best wonder, but it has a solid return on investment. I like to play OCC, where I always make a grab for it for the GE points.

I agree regarding Stonehenge. It's vastly superior - I always try to spread my state religion as fast as possible to get the early OR bonuses.

 

[whats a navy]

I see people saying TGW but for barb defense. The main thing with that wonder is the Great Spy which can get you a lot of techs in the medieval age.

 

[NihilZero]

I see people saying TGW but for barb defense. The main thing with that wonder is the Great Spy which can get you a lot of techs in the medieval age.

Absolutely. When I build the Great Wall, I don't need to worry about where I'm getting things like Engineering and Philosophy from. I'm stealing 'em!

 

[plasmacannon]

The Sistine Chapel.

I gain 10 culture per turn in the city that builds it.
I gain 5 culture per religous building I have (1 temple, 1 Monastery, 1 cathedral) = 15 culture per turn for each city.
I gain 2 culture per specialist in each city. Making Caste System an obvious Civic choice.

It makes conquering opponents easier, as you overcome their cultural influence in their former cities, more quickly.

Ramesses II is the best at this, as he builds wonders and temples twice as fast.

Creative might give you 2 culture/turn, but, TSC gives you alot more.

 

[qyll]

One of the things I really like about Civ IV is that none of the wonders (except AP) are game breaking. Civ III, Pyramids was huge - granaries in every city was an enormous advantage. And with scientific leaders, they could just get built!!

There is no wonder with that sort of impact in Civ IV, and I think that's excellent.

Yep. Winning a game without building any wonders is more than possible, but some wonders will definitely aid in victory more than others. If I have marble nearby, the first thing that pops into my head is "Great Library". Since it's unlocked through such a low AI priority tech path (aesthetics, polytheism, literature), you're guaranteed to get it almost every time if you make an effort to get it.

Nothing beats more cities though. Land is the best wonder.