Beta 12

One feature that i think would greatly improve the mod would be the possibility to pillage a city. When you capture a city, in addition to keeping and razing you get the option to pillage it. The city would remain under its old owner but loose some buildings. The pillager would get some benefit, mostly gold but also research points, spionage points or more fancier things like getting access to a resource inside the city cross for some turns or forcing some of the population into mercenary service could be possible.

I'm not yet sure how to implement, but i think it should be coupled on the number of units the conquerer has. Every unit that enters the city can pillage. To avoid exploits the unit should be teleported to the capitol afterwards.

We have to be careful with features like this, they are easily and greatly exploitable by the player.
The units are moved back to the capital, but what prevents you from pillaging that city continueously?
Even if you add a cap that the city's population is reduced by 1 with every pillage, and pillaging is only availeable in 3+ cities, I still think it's a huge exploit to the player

Also, pillaging is more or less in - you get gold when you conquer the city no matter what you do with it.
I agree it's not perfect this way, but I find it hard to improve this without making pillaging overpowered
 
You are right, there is the exploiting problem that has to be treated, and there are balancing problems. The loot can not come from nothing, it has to be bound to something, be it poulation or builings or the amount of gold of the cityowner.
Maybe we forget the fancier things and try to make a very simple pillaging mechanism first.
There are two motivations to do such a thing. Firstly its historic. Many - if not most -military conflicts where more about pillaging than actual gaining control of the territory. Think about the raids of all nomadic tribes. The venetian raids, or even the crusades. And the organisational effort of "ruling" a newly conquered territory shouldn't be underestimated. Secondly there are situations where you don't want to hold a conquered city, but you don't want to raze it either. So there's the need for something in between. Granting the city independence would be one possibility, but i think some kind of pillaging mechanism would be more fitting.

In the simpliest case you get only gold an the amount is bound by the number of conquering units. That means every unit can carry only a certain amount of gold, lets say 20. Furthermore the amount of gold is bound by the availably money, that means the money the owner of the city has. If he has no gold, then you get nothing. The teleportation feature remains. Every unit that pillages is immeadiatly teleported back to the capitol.

If you want to improve it, you could add a treshold of save gold that cannot be looted from the cityowner depending on the total number of cities of the owner. Maybe 400 gold for each city. That means if you have 10 cities you have 4000 gold that is safe from pillaging. That prevents that you steal all the players gold by pillaging the same city over and over again. A more fair formula would take the number of population points into account. I'm not sure what the current gold, that you get upon conquering is based on. Maybe this can give us some hints.

The units are moved back to the capital, but what prevents you from pillaging that city continueously?
What prevents you from conquering a city, making peace with the owner, granting it beack, declaring war, and conquering again?
Theoretically this is also doable. And you get gold every time you conquer the city. But there are mechanisms in place that make this kind of behaviour less attractive. The limited amount of money of the owner, the 10 turn peace limit and the diplomacy penalty upon declaring war. Similar mechanisms can be found for the pillaging feature.
 
The penalty makes the "old" civs harder to play since they tend to stay in old civics for a longer period of time. Which of course negatively affects the civ. Realistic, since old big empires dont change so easily!

Ok this makes sense.
I think it wouldn't be that much of a problem if the collapsing mechanic would allow for an easier way to recover. In some circumstances it can be quite devastating. It would for example help if you would not loose all of your culture, but only 40% and only if it doesnt overlap with another city you still control. And if the number of units that become independent would be limited. Remaining units apearing in the capitol.
 
The funniest thing just happened. I'm playing as France, Burgundy spawns and flips the expected cities.

I actually want to switch to Germany, but out of habit I click 'no' when the pop-up comes the next turn. So I reload an auto save on the turn that Burgundy flips cities and the flip never happens / happened!

So basically Burgundy is still at peace with France, but France still controls Vienne and Marseille.

I don't think it's a bug, I just think it's weird. And a potential way of preventing flips... :mischief:
 
The funniest thing just happened. I'm playing as France, Burgundy spawns and flips the expected cities.

I actually want to switch to Germany, but out of habit I click 'no' when the pop-up comes the next turn. So I reload an auto save on the turn that Burgundy flips cities and the flip never happens / happened!

So basically Burgundy is still at peace with France, but France still controls Vienne and Marseille.

I don't think it's a bug, I just think it's weird. And a potential way of preventing flips... :mischief:

Sounds like a bug actually. Do you happen to have the autosave?
 
You are right, there is the exploiting problem that has to be treated, and there are balancing problems. The loot can not come from nothing, it has to be bound to something, be it poulation or builings or the amount of gold of the cityowner.
Maybe we forget the fancier things and try to make a very simple pillaging mechanism first.
There are two motivations to do such a thing. Firstly its historic. Many - if not most -military conflicts where more about pillaging than actual gaining control of the territory. Think about the raids of all nomadic tribes. The venetian raids, or even the crusades. And the organisational effort of "ruling" a newly conquered territory shouldn't be underestimated. Secondly there are situations where you don't want to hold a conquered city, but you don't want to raze it either. So there's the need for something in between. Granting the city independence would be one possibility, but i think some kind of pillaging mechanism would be more fitting.

In the simpliest case you get only gold an the amount is bound by the number of conquering units. That means every unit can carry only a certain amount of gold, lets say 20. Furthermore the amount of gold is bound by the availably money, that means the money the owner of the city has. If he has no gold, then you get nothing. The teleportation feature remains. Every unit that pillages is immeadiatly teleported back to the capitol.

If you want to improve it, you could add a treshold of save gold that cannot be looted from the cityowner depending on the total number of cities of the owner. Maybe 400 gold for each city. That means if you have 10 cities you have 4000 gold that is safe from pillaging. That prevents that you steal all the players gold by pillaging the same city over and over again. A more fair formula would take the number of population points into account. I'm not sure what the current gold, that you get upon conquering is based on. Maybe this can give us some hints.


What prevents you from conquering a city, making peace with the owner, granting it beack, declaring war, and conquering again?
Theoretically this is also doable. And you get gold every time you conquer the city. But there are mechanisms in place that make this kind of behaviour less attractive. The limited amount of money of the owner, the 10 turn peace limit and the diplomacy penalty upon declaring war. Similar mechanisms can be found for the pillaging feature.

How about having units pillage cities under occupation like tile improvements. Each time a unit pillages they should get about as much gold as from a town - and reduces a citiy's pop by 1, until it is razed. Other functions like having unhappiness from it would be good as well. In particular I don't like units (spies) teleporing to the capital when most units have only one or two movement. I believe there was a mod that does something like this?
 
The funniest thing just happened. I'm playing as France, Burgundy spawns and flips the expected cities.

I actually want to switch to Germany, but out of habit I click 'no' when the pop-up comes the next turn. So I reload an auto save on the turn that Burgundy flips cities and the flip never happens / happened!

So basically Burgundy is still at peace with France, but France still controls Vienne and Marseille.

I don't think it's a bug, I just think it's weird. And a potential way of preventing flips... :mischief:

This is a feature, you've always been able to prevent flips by reloading the autosave... IIRC this error is from RFC
 
This is a feature, you've always been able to prevent flips by reloading the autosave... IIRC this error is from RFC

Feature? I wouldn't call this feature, it's certainly not intended in RFCE
 
@3Miro
I really like your latest sound updates :goodjob:
I may rename some of the files, but will keep all your changes
 
@3Miro
I really like your latest sound updates :goodjob:
I may rename some of the files, but will keep all your changes

I didn't want to mess with the XML tags too much so I just replaced Simeon's .mp3

Change the names, just make sure not to flip which song is which since "Bogorodice Devo" is Serbian and doesn't fit a Bulgarian ruler and Simeon's song is written specifically for him and doesn't fit Ivan Asen II.
 
I didn't want to mess with the XML tags too much so I just replaced Simeon's .mp3

Change the names, just make sure not to flip which song is which since "Bogorodice Devo" is Serbian and doesn't fit a Bulgarian ruler and Simeon's song is written specifically for him and doesn't fit Ivan Asen II.

Don't worry, already made my update, didn't mess upany of the music you added. I absolutely like Bogodorice Devo, sounds great in the mod
Btw, was it intended that you made both bulgarian songs not to loop?
Only a couple diplomusics are set to this - mostly the intros of course
 
There has been quite some time since the last Beta came out, but I guess people are not too upset since you guys are having fun with Morholt's modmodmod. I hope to release Beta 13 some time soon (and mess with Morhlot since he will have to then port his mod to the new Beta).

The new big thing is the new Merc scheme, which looks just like the old one, but should work better. Right now we have quite a few "generic" mercs and I expect Beta 13 to still have those, but we will change that eventually.

Another big thing is the huge improvement of the AI. The balance was broken recently when I added sub-continents, but now the AI is a lot more sane. You see Spain settle North Africa, Genoa and Venice spread on the Mediterranean Islands and the Ottomans are really scary.

Crusades have also been changed significantly.

There are some more bugs to be fixed for the next version and the balance would have to be reset. Other than that I have some more things on the "todo" list.

- New UHV for Lithuania, this one is in need of lots of attention.
- Poland needs to be revisited in terms of UHV
- Swedish spawn need to be updated
- I will see what changes I can make to the spawn/respawn mechanics to remove the gigantic stack flip

For the graphics people (AbsintheRed and merijn_v1)
- we need art and XML for the new special mercs. Just make them unbuildable units (like the Seljuks and Keshiks), then we can add them to the python (one simple line)
- we also need a new Janissary unit for the new Ottoman UP. Make it a Musketman maybe with small bonus to city attack. Also make it unbuildable, Ottomans would get those form the new UP (actually I need to change the text for the new Turkish UP).

Am I missing any other big changes?
 
I will do some of the "unique" mercs. Should they be visible in the civilopedia, or should we hide them, like corsairs etc? I hope I can do some of it this weekend.
 
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