Beta 9 Talk

[3Miro]

It has been 2 weeks since the last Beta, so it is time for Beta 9.

https://sourceforge.net/projects/rfceurope/

It is not where I would like it to be, but I think it has made some progress. The biggest thing is the new civic system, as well as many bugfixes and balance changes.

Please if you have a bug or an issue to report, post a savegame from one or two turns before the problem occurs. Use autosaves. You may have to zip the files before you post them.

Here is a list of the changes:

Spoiler :

General changes:
New civic system
Workshops can now be build on Moorland (makes English UP more powerful)
Added favourite religion to some of the leaders
Added new Colony: Vinland
Colonies become obsolete after some date
Atlantic Access is revealed by Astroable (see Balance for how this changes the game)
Changed Norse UHV 1: now you have to build the Vinland colony
Cathedrals now really need state religion
Some Hints are added (when you load a game)
Player number 4 (Cordoba) respawns as Hafsid Caliphate, effectively adding a new player in North Africa (need to work on the spread of Islam in NA)
Trading over ocean is possible with Astrolable (to help the Norse with their UHV)
Added Reformation event, after all players hae made a choice on Reformation, the remaining Catholics can choose between free Prosecutros or free Stability boost (diplomacy and faith points adjustments to come later)

Map and province changes:
A few small fixes to the map after the updates of Beta 8
Added salt to Anatolia, removed deers
Germany get Lorraine as a "Solid" Province
Spain gets the Canaries as "OK" stability
Genoa gets Malta
Wheat added to Dijon
Changed the map area and the provinces near Cyprus and southern Greece
Byzantium now gets Cyprus, Rhodes and Crete as solid provinces
Cordoba gets Oran as OK Province
Removed sheep from northern Transylvania (Hungary)
Moved olives near Knossos
Placed a few walruses in the northern regions (for testing)

XML updates:
XML cleanup (unused lines of code are removed, many typos fixed)
Python cleanup (unused lines of code are removed)
New XML entries for Units Production boost and Building + Civic combo (with text and AI awareness, text could probably be improved)
Some objects are translated, a part of the Province names are translated
Updated the code for city names, now we can ask for the condition "conquers a number of provinces of given type" and "has conquered specific province"
For the "Empire" condition DCNConditionConqNumOfProvincesOfTypeType should be 2 for None, Desired and Outer, DCNConditionConqNumOfProvincesOfTypeNum should be 1 or 2
For Austria-Hungary, for Austria, DCNConditionConqASpecificProvince should hold the number for province Hungary (see XMLConsts.py for a list)
Updated the text for the Expansion civics
The English UP is now correctly listed as +2 hammer from Workshop
Added text showing info for the Civic combo Stability boost/penalty
Added condition for the Dynamic Names for the case when the player has respawned (note XML value of 0 passes regardless whether the player has respawned)
Many small XML updates regarding religious buildings
Walrus (ivory) gives 1 food without a camp and an additional 1 food, 1 production and 1 commerce with a camp

Art updates:
Byzantine Lancer, Byzantine Knight and Hungarian Pikeman have proper button
Some wonder "movies" (read pictures) have a much smaller size
In the Financial Screen, the Foreign Stability section shows the "hidden" fifth stablity cathegory: Swing, that always resets rapidly to zero
Ethnic unit art for Russian Great Merchant
Walrus art for Ivory

Balance:
Added direct stability bonus for Golden Age, before it was only implicid via the boost of Economy
Atlantic Access start on the map only in Iceland, then it disapears completely after 1050AD
Atlantic Access is then added dynamically as different nations discover Astronomy (Gibraltar AA is added when any nation discovers Astronomy)
Culture output depends on the province type, lower culture for Unstable and higher culture for Solid
Adjusted Merchant Republic number of cities penalty, it should help the AI
Serfdom becomes available with Vassalage and Feudal Monarchy with Feudalism
Apprenticeship becomes available with Education
Added Literature, Classical Knowledge, Monument Building, Philosophy, Education as Austrian starting techs
Many of the Indy cities got a religion on start
Increased the strength of the Seljuks to 13 (they are Heavy Cavalry and many units get bonuses vs Heavy Cavalry)
Ottomans get 20 faith points on start, this should prevernt the AI from converting away from Islam (still not working)
Moved Militarism to Farriers (Vassalage was the only early expansion civic and it is not that good)
Moved Mercantilism to Paper (Banking is too early)
Increased Free Peasantry cottage growth bonus to 100%, otherwise the Improvements don't have enough time to grow inbetween Plagues
Portuguese Fetoria now replaces Harbor, gives +1 commerce from water tiles
Removed Horse Archer barbarians from Iberia, overall the Barbs were a bit OP
Turkey more likely to start at war with Bulgaria
On lower then Monarch difficulty, the human gets +8 stability points
Update Portugal Wars Map to include Cordoba with very low priority, thus they can benefit from a Defensive Crusade
Defensive Crusades now "cost" less Faith Points, strength is also adjusted for the new buildings/saints giving more faith (this should have been done some time ago)
Small boost for the defensive Crusade when you have less than 6 cities (i.e. you need a bit more help)
Added more starting techs to Lithuania
Judaism now also adds culture like all the other religions
Added Missionaries for many "historic" nations, sometimes one has to wait way too long for a religion (like England)
Cities with population 1 have only 40 percent chance to autoraze
Poland no longer builds Prosecutors
Islam now spreads through North Africa
Longbowmans require Chivalry (instead of Military tradition), Tomb of Al Khalid requires Military Tradition (instead of Chivalry), Maceman recieve a bonus vs. Polearm (instead of Heavy Cavalry)
Adjusted Longbowman and Maceman and the bonuses that they provide
Small tech boost to Portugal
Lowered German tech rate, they had it at a level for a later civ
Moved the Ottoman start date so that they flip Adrianopolis at a historically accurate date
Spanish agression increased, Isabella is less pious and more violent

Bugfixes:
Fixed: Norse no longer lose stability when capturing cities
Fixed: Players no longer get double-hits from razing cities
Fixed: Austrian spawn had tiles that were double-counted resulting in crashing when cities had to flip twice
Fixed: An autorun bug that deviated from Rhye's code, now we do exactly what he does, but I still don't understand everything about it
Fixed: A Firaxis bug, upon capturing an enemy city, units from the defending player can enter the city after the city has been captured
added an extra call to CvPlot::verifyUnitValidPlot() at the end of CvUnit::setXY(), the new code is marked by //3MiroBugfix
Fixed: Jerusalem was missing from 2nd Arab UHV
Fixed: Crusade gets canceled if a Catholic captures Jerusalem during the voting
Fixed: Crusaders "return" properly from a canceled Crusade (you can change religion again)
Fixed: Jerusalem is added to the Arabian UHV territory
Fixed: French UP now works
Fixed: Third Dutch UHV works now
Fixed: Seljuks were broken, they were not spread out geographically (there were some issues with the code)
Fixed: the starting techs for Portugal skipped Lateen Sails and went to Carthography directly, now there is no break
Fixed: TXT_KEY_GREAT_PERSON_PETER_II
Fixed: Portugal settlers map did not include West Africa and the Atlantic Islands
Fixed: The Defensive Crusades were totally broken, they should work now (needed to add Defensive Provinces for the traditionally non-Catholic Players)
Fixed: Spanish 3d UHV should work now
Fixed: if Protestantism has not been founded by the time the Dutch spawn, then the Dutch properly found Protestantism
Fixed: Portugal UP now applies to both Trading Companies as opposed to one company and the Encyclopedia project
Switched hungarian order and select sounds

NOTE Shortly after release we discovered a bug that can cause all sorts of problems upon starting a new game from within an existing game. This is mostly responsible for the Byzantines to win their first UHV without doing anything, the Norse city Raze counter not resetting and other. To avoid the bug, make sure to completely restart Civilization when you want to start a new game (save/load work fine).

 

[yogiebere]

wow I really like almost all of the changes made here. I especially like the England boost, hopefully the AI will choose to get some more cottages though.

Gonna download and check for bugs..

 

[3Miro]

Gonna download and check for bugs..

I am sure you would find plenty

 

[AbsintheRed]

wow I really like almost all of the changes made here.

This is because almost all of them are based on the feedback we get here
So everyone, keep up the good work on finding bugs and giving us good suggestions

 

[yogiebere]

Why was there the removal of the hungary sheep, one of the very few changes I'm confused about.

By the way is there an irc channel or some other form you guys talk on?

 

[AbsintheRed]

Why was there the removal of the hungary sheep, one of the very few changes I'm confused about.

Actually I removed that today, because there was some feedback that I gone overboard with the hungarian resources (when I changed the Carpathian-basin for Beta 8)
I don't want that the players feel that Hungary is overpowered just because I'm hungarian.
Of course, if the majority thinks that it was better the other way, I will readd it...

By the way is there an irc channel or some other form you guys talk on?

Not yet, but I was also thinking of this
It would make things much easier in a few cases...

 

[yogiebere]

hmm ok. Honestly I still think Hungary is pretty weak even with carpathian changes (it seemed to help austria a lot more, which was needed as well) I think of Hungary as between Bulgaria and Poland on weakness level - pretty low.

 

[AbsintheRed]

hmm ok. Honestly I still think Hungary is pretty weak even with carpathian changes (it seemed to help austria a lot more, which was needed as well) I think of Hungary as between Bulgaria and Poland on weakness level - pretty low.

Agreed
Hungary is not well balanced now (along with Poland and a few other civs btw), but this is on 3Miro's todo list too
I want to have a well balanced map - both accuracy and gameplay wise - then we can balance all the civs out with the various modifiers

I also want to move Budapest to be Buda, 1 tile west of the current starting position.
This is way more historic, and will also improve the way the AI settles the Carpathian-basin

 

[civ_king]

So what province is Malta getting merged with? It should be merged with Sicily!

 

[Science Rules]

I tried a game as the Norse. Although I like how the exploration UHV has been switched to Vinland, the is a lot of work that still needs to be done:

Stability issues: I had Birka (in Crimea) and Reykjavik declare independence right around 1000 AD. This shouldn't be happening under normal circumstances.

The Norse starting stack needs a major boost. Because I'm forced to send my starting settler to Crimea, most of Scandinavia remains unsettled until after the Normans spawn. Any additional settlers I build must immediately be sent to Normandy, Sicily and Iceland. 2 berserks and a swordsman is not enough to wreak havoc like required for the UHV. The Norse should get a few more settlers and berserks at the start. They should also start with a few workboats.

Vinland,
Right now, it is impossible to build Vinland before the UHV checks. Actually, it's impossible to even hook up Atlantic Access by that time. Once a settler reaches Iceland, it takes 30 turns to build a work boat, and Reykjavik will declare independence before then. Unless I send a starting settler to Iceland (and forgo settling Crimea), Vinland seems to be impossible before the 1009 AD.

Other question:
Is there a reason Ephesus hasn't been exchanged for Smyrna?

 

[3Miro]

Can you get to Crimea with your second settler? Use the roads around the Russian rivers. Also, don't settle Normandy, wait for the two cities there to spawn and then conquer them.

I will try the Norse UHV to see what is happening. You can also try it yourself, give yourself some more starting units and see how much you need to get the thing done.

Also, if you conquer the British provinces and settler in Crimea, then it shouldn't be that hard to keep the stability high.

 

[Science Rules]

I sent the second settler to Crimea and founded Birka there, but Bikra later declared independence.

I'll experiment with the Norse & world builder.

 

[Veshta]

Hungary got a lot more fresh water city sites, the loss of a woollen one shouldn't impact them too much .. water > food. Biggest threat I have experienced with them is early collapse of Kiev which means a bunch of antsy Keshiks just across the mountains, some go north to Poland but most loose cannons take the opening directly into the basin.

In Beta8 I managed to send a beserker boat through Gibraltar and explore ocean in there with zerkers hitting targets of opportunity.
Settler + escort along russian roads, gift small tech to Kiev for OB -> Crimea.
Settler to Calais to beat the natural spawn.
Settler down through Burgundy/France to be picked up by Mediterranean galley (which was done exploring) -> Sicily.
British Isles are zerker food so you really just need Iceland settled in the north .. lots of time but you needed to build manors as 1st/2nd thing in all cities.
PS: The RFC workboat border prox. restriction is not present in REF:E so you should be able to send a workboat ahead of the settler as they can (or could) cross ocean as well due to Norse UA.

Civic solution looks very solid, looking forward to seeing what the AI does with the now not so obvious choice .. about time there were more than one option for the mid game
England is still going to be tech darkness (EDU+Guilds needed) for a while but longbow change might help, testing them now .. looking good though.

 

[AbsintheRed]

Hungary got a lot more fresh water city sites, the loss of a woollen one shouldn't impact them too much .. water > food. Biggest threat I have experienced with them is early collapse of Kiev which means a bunch of antsy Keshiks just across the mountains, some go north to Poland but most loose cannons take the opening directly into the basin.

Sheep is not just a food bonus, as it was the only sheep the AI grabs in most games, it's also -1 happiness for Hungary

The opening in the Carpathian mountain is supposed to be the Vereczkei-hago (Verecke Pass), where the hungarian tribes got through to colonize the whole basin in the 9th century
And the mongols got through the same area a few hundred years later - so it's mostly historical if they attack there - devastating more than half of the hungarian population, and most cities under a year...

Spoiler :

 

[ezzlar]

Allowing trade over ocean tiles should change the trade dynamics between west Europe and east Europe. Marseilles and Tangier cut of the trade once they get one culture upgrade, now trade will be possible (unless you have to cross hostile Cordoba).

But I just consider that a good change

 

[Veshta]

Sheep is not just a food bonus, as it was the only sheep the AI grabs in most games, it's also -1 happiness for Hungary

They frequently manage to secure the sheep near Fiume with the Kaniz??? city placement, the basin revamp gave them cow on plains (if I remember old map correctly) and fresh water galore ..
But, if that sheep is so crucial, perhaps moving Belograd (barb city to East) or the nearby sheep, that one goes unused for hundreds of years now that the Bulgarians cannot roll over Byzanz

And yes, the central European history is one of blood, blood and more blood. My main point was that the loss of the sheep is of secondary concern when you have Keshiks chomping at the bit next door

 

[3Miro]

AbsintheRed, about the chart, why is there no place showing the Plagues? Did Hungary somehow escape?

 

[Veshta]

[Bug]: Unable to choose religion as Norse. Have Catholic Palermo, Dublin and Othodox York (924) but cnvert option does not appear in religion screen .. guessing it broke with religion present from start in indy/carb cities.
[BUG]: UHV checking for Norse is borked. Greyed out from the start with no 1/3 for Vinland (didn't notice the greyed out part at all until Vinland didn't register)

I take it you want Paris sacked by Norse? Got all cities needed for UHV with Calais acquired through brute force but Normandy shows unconquered.
Vinland was built in 970'ish, there is actually enough time and boats to add "reveal ocean (or maybe coast west of Gibraltar" I think .

 

[AbsintheRed]

AbsintheRed, about the chart, why is there no place showing the Plagues? Did Hungary somehow escape?

"the Magyars' proportion in the Carpathian Basin was at an almost constant 80% during the Middle Ages - non Magyars numbered hardly more than 20% to 25% of the total population - and began to decrease only at the time of the Ottoman conquest, reaching as low as around 39% in the end of the 18th century. The decline of the Magyars was due to the constant wars, Ottoman raids, famines and plagues during the 150 years of Ottoman rule. The main zones of war were the territories inhabited by the Magyars, so the death toll attrited them at a much higher rate than among other nationalities"

I didn't find exact details on the plagues, but IIRC plagues in Hungary before the 15th century weren't as hard as in the western parts of Europe

 

[Wessel V1]

Same bug here, I converted Paris as the French but I cannot choose a state religion.