Better Piety?

[evilcat]

So thoughs about Piety policy. It have some good stuff, and allows some interesting strategies, but in the same time it do not feel right:
- it is ancient era tree, yet do not help in generating culture in any way.
- Religious tolerance is "all star alligned" bonus.
- Thecracy provides minor bonus considering cost.
- Prophet comes too late, later than Liberty Prophet, and since Piety does not generates culture it takes even longer.
- Religion as a whole have strong synergy with ICS. And it sukcs that there is no path of smaller religion center.

So how i see it:
Opener: Construction bonus stays, religion tolerance add to this.
Reason: opener is decent (good timing) but current tolerance is pure crap, considering timing, and cost it takes. Putting it into opener will at least reduce the cost of crappy policy. Some option for players who would like to fallow religion, give up founder belief for double pantheon belief for 1SP.
Organized religion: Shrines gives +1, temples +2.
Reasoun: ZOMG double bonus, however it will give some alternative to spaming cities like no tomorrow, since instead of goind for yet another city you can just build temple (probably faster than settler + move + shrine) and get bigger bonus.
Theocracy: Holy Site part is moved to finisher.
Reason: Timing. (from the Holy site part you will not benefit for another 100t, while having monster temples is decent even as 3 policy dip)
Mandate of Heaven: no changes.
Incarnation [WhateverName] (Requires Theocracy) Prophet apears near capital.
Reason: Now it will be well timed, at least faster than liberty. Also since we want this 4rd policy asap spaming cities would be a little worse. Also it gives a indirect boost to culture based pantheons.
Reformacion (requires Theocracy and Mandate of Heaven): No changes. However fallower should not be able to use it.
Finisher: Holy Sites Holy Sites gives +3 and +3
Reason: Once we establish our religion it is time when we can plant some prophets. Also it will allow to catch up a little with culture.

New fallower belief: Scirptorium. Temples provide +2 in cities with 5+pop.
Why: It deserve recognicion that priest for a while was intelectual elite, as well as seeding efforts of irish and armenian monks.
Pantheon: Ancessors Worship: Shrines provide +2 in cities with pop 3+
Why: Piety lacks early culture, and this one is not luck based. However ICS is not so good with this one.

Note: The only bonus added is +2 for temples in organized religion. Everything else is moving around. And it still works better.


Dont like? Do not worry, it aint gonna happen, from the other side if you have some idea it will not happen as well.

However to those who have some experience with modding "how hard it is to mod"?

 

[headcase]

The 3C from Holy Sites comes from the closer, so Piety doesn't help culture until it's finished. Moving it up like you suggested may be good for culture, though it may make a holy site spamming strategy a bit too easy in terms of SPs needed. Agreed that it would be good to see culture in here somewhere in some way.

 

[Bibor]

Piety is awesome as is, if you make your religion an integral part of your strategy. The truth is, having a religion is powerful "as is" (not to mention you can "trigger it" get it from a single visit to a religious civ on turn 2), that's why its tree is truly powerful only if you fill it up completely.

 

[Martinus]

I don't quite agree that it does not help generating culture - it does so, through religion. Sure, this may be not a direct bonus but I think it is much more powerful, if you focus on it.

For example, in my Piety/Religion focused games (usually on King as Byzantium), I usually get three beliefs with buildings (Cathedrals, Mosques and Pagodas or Monasteries, if there is a lot of Wine/Incense around), and pick Messiah as the enhancement belief.

Coupled with the Piety tree finisher and Mandate of Heaven, this means that I have enough piety to buy all three buildings and settle a Great Prophet on the first round of founding a new city - this generates more culture than Tradition or Liberty would ever allow me.

Plus, with the Sacred Sites, this lets me get the early Tourism start before anyone else is even capable of generating Tourism outside of the Parthenon.

 

[Autoclave]

I would consider changing something about the policy that allows you to use the second pantheon of the second most popular religion. It's often a waste of a policy.

 

[I_qua_I]

I would consider changing something about the policy that allows you to use the second pantheon of the second most popular religion. It's often a waste of a policy.

This!^^^ The rest are fine. Some of the policies are sometimes underwhelming but this is the only one that seems like a waste. It also lacks transparency. Knowing which cities are benefiting from this policy and in what way from which religion involves a lot more look-up than should be necessary and frankly just goes unnoticed.

 

[troublmaker]

The only nice thing about Piety is you can get a wicked fast religion... but with no religious structures it'll never spread.

 

[Autoclave]

This!^^^ The rest are fine. Some of the policies are sometimes underwhelming but this is the only one that seems like a waste. It also lacks transparency. Knowing which cities are benefiting from this policy and in what way from which religion involves a lot more look-up than should be necessary and frankly just goes unnoticed.

It's very rare that you can make good use of it. Ok I had one situations when playing with spain on a dessert map I borrowed the desert folklore from Siam. Yes you can try to get a specific religion by using trade routes, but most often than not, it's not an easy thing to do.

 

[Resipsa]

If you are going Piety opening you shouldn't have to wait for the finisher to get your religion founded.

I like the change to Organized Religion +1 per shrine and +2 per temple is what Piety needs early to spread and get a lead on Religion.

 

[evilcat]

Religion Tolerance is a real lucluster, since it hardly ever kicks in.
It would be great if someone spread his religion a little with something like ferite rites or godness of love, but...
- 1st it nead to spread
- in the same time it as well be desert folklore (no single desert tile for us) or this thing giving classic era units... yeah. Hardly ever kics in.

Second pet pevee for me is that the faith bonus is same for shrine and temple. Since that force going wide. If the bonus fors 2f for temple then building temple would be very solid alternative to goind for another city.

And the Prophet comes one policy to late. :-/ Maybe reformation belief could be a finisher?

 

[Bibor]

I would consider changing something about the policy that allows you to use the second pantheon of the second most popular religion. It's often a waste of a policy.

Agreed. +1 faith per specialist would be mucho better and easier to understand (and not terribly OP).

 

[evilcat]

Agreed. +1 faith per specialist would be mucho better and easier to understand (and not terribly OP).

I see the problem: Piety already grants bonus faith from shrine/temples. And faith discount. So we already have faith generation, and that is enought, to avoid being one trick pony "tons of faith" other policies should grant something else. Just another pantheon is mostly useless or not present bonus.

Unrelated question: Is it possible to found religion without theology?

 

[Resipsa]

I see the problem: Piety already grants bonus faith from shrine/temples. And faith discount. So we already have faith generation, and that is enought, to avoid being one trick pony "tons of faith" other policies should grant something else. Just another pantheon is mostly useless or not present bonus.

Unrelated question: Is it possible to found religion without theology?

yes, build Stone Henge and go elsewhere in the tech tree, civil service (etc) and you'll pop a great Prophet before you get back to theology

 

[rattlejaw]

I think Reformations should be limited to the founder, personally. It's not necessarily a huge deal that you're passing them on, since it's by no means a guarantee that the beneficiaries will have enough faith income to actually make use (and of course there are a few like Unity of the Prophets that help only you), but it is pretty stupid that you sabotage your start just to give somebody else a better religion. There's already a strong tension between faiths you want to spread and faiths you want to keep to yourself, which is fine (it's an interesting mechanic), but I think Reformations go a bit too far in the wrong direction.

That said, I think there's an overall problem with Piety's design, in that it's really mostly appealing to civs who want a religion but don't get any help in founding one. That's a pretty small sample. Byzantium, yeah. Egypt, maybe, since you'll want Burial Tombs everywhere anyway. Who else? If you have a desert start, or can make use of any of the other good faith or faith/culture pantheons, you don't need the Piety tree. If you're Ethiopia or Celts or Maya you'll get what you need faster by settling or taking more cities. If you're anybody else, there's a very high chance that you're better off ignoring religion altogether and giving open borders to whichever civ founds one you like. There's no question that religion can be powerful, but it's not powerful enough to make do with the awful start you get from Piety.

 

[Autoclave]

I see the problem: Piety already grants bonus faith from shrine/temples. And faith discount. So we already have faith generation, and that is enought, to avoid being one trick pony "tons of faith" other policies should grant something else. Just another pantheon is mostly useless or not present bonus.

Unrelated question: Is it possible to found religion without theology?

you can become ally with a faith city state. Try to complete their quests or bribe them. Here is another example: sweeden, gift your Honor general to a state. You will get enough faith for enough turns to get a religion up.

 

[evilcat]

Yes reformation should be connected to civ, not religion. So enemies should not use it. Now it is easly arrow in the knee. It is our social policy.

The other thing is that going into Piety shouldnt be considered sabotaging your start in the first place. :-(

I dont think there is overall proble with religion, other than some beliefs are plain better than other, or that there could be a little wider choice.

Byzantine is in its own gimp. Since you need religion fast, but dont have tools to get it fast. And even if you got it resonable fast it will be build from scraps from better suited civs.
This would not be such a serious problem if going piety was as good as Tradicion/Liberty, and if piety actually gave you fast religion. But Piety isnt fast way to religion.
Having UA/UB perk, or Liberty finisher, or Stonehage, or mix of ICS and luck with pantheon is the way to go. Since prophet from Piety comes so late, and tree itself dont grant culture it is inferior.
And i think that my suggestion are in good direction.
+2f from temples would give a alternative of just goind 1-2 city with temples and be on pair with tradicion with stonehage.
Droping free prophet as 4th policy would make Piety the fastest way to get Religion. Which would be a buff for Byzantine to work right. Civs with faith as UA can still go Piety and got both Prophet and Faith for buildings, or more prophets to plant, spread, or just fast enhance.

Also not that it should not be possible to found religion without theology. (just like you need construction for lumbermill)

 

[peterka]

I think Religion Tolerance should give a modified version of indonesian candi: +1 faith per extra religion in the city. In civ4 I liked to be spammed by missionnaries to be able to found monasteries and temples from other religions!

 

[joelzhl]

I agree that the GP finisher comes too late. It should replace Religious Tolerance so you can get it earlier.

Religious Tolerance should be the new finisher. It should be change to something like "You can select a believe already selected by another religion". This will fit in much better thematically with the Reformation SP that you'll want to reform your religion because of competition from other religion.

 

[peterka]

Or pantheons of ALL other religions....

 

[Matthew.]

I'd assume the idea is that if you go Piety you will choose at least one trait which will give way more culture than Tradition/Liberty/Honor ever could. Same thing with happiness.

As for later Prophet, still useful for enhancing or ensuring dominance.

Religious Tolerance does seem a bit off, so agree with the others.

I have more issues with early-game faith than the Piety tree. Don't like how faith pantheons and natural wonders tend to be way stronger than actually putting effort into creating a religion (building shrines/temples, going Piety).