Better RoM Discussion: Wonders

[konradcabral]

so would Communism halt inflation?

No, not communism itself. Central Bank would give -10% or -20% inflation, Applied Economics tech -10% or -20%, Subsidized Civic +10%, rush building or units with gold +1% for x turns and so on...

 

[civ_king]

No, not communism itself. Central Bank would give -10% or -20% inflation, Applied Economics tech -10% or -20%, Subsidized Civic +10%, rush building or units with gold +1% for x turns and so on...

how would one emulate the rigid price controls of the USSR?

also I think the skyscraper is OP! it gives 3 5 5

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

how would one emulate the rigid price controls of the USSR?

also I think the skyscraper is OP! it gives 3 5 5

Or those tried in Ancient Rome or Greece by the guy that gave us the word "draconian"

 

[Killtech]

About Moai Statues: Dancing Hoskuld gave the same argument of making islands productive, and I respond the same way as before: it's not realistic nor reasonable! A really correct measure would be making the Statues a religious --> artistic --> touristic wonder and create or modify another one to substitute that ability for one-tile islands.

A very clear no on this one. It is not realistic, but cities on the antarctis aren't too. yet the AI loves cities in the ice. many things in Civ are quite far from reality but are essencial for the game and so they stay. since there is no effective way to transport hammers to production-weak cities (which are frequent in the game) i strongly oppose any change to that NW.

About Global Stock Exchange: IMO this should be the ultimate financial wonder, this was the cause of the 75%. I'm thinking about suggesting an economic modcomp, with some improvements, currently not, or badly, simulated in Civ. Examples: insurance, derivatives, stock exchange itself (creating a Stock Exchange NW and making Wall Street a WW), inflation, etc.. I'm an economist and I think I could give good suggestions about this, what do you think?

the change is a huge nerf! the tiny +75% bonus for one(!) city isn't comperable to the bonus now. so i'm fully in for this change. about the other malus: unhappiness - well the effects has been localized and nerfed enough and since it's a world wonder i don't think we need that.

About 3G Dam: in my last 50 games, I never built a single power plant, I always beeline plastics and rush 3G Dam, so I'm trying to avoid that. Maybe it is a field to be treated by Power Mod, suggested by Hydromancerx, which I fully support.

a valid point. in my game i didn't have the 3GDam so i didn't see it's problem.

 

[konradcabral]

how would one emulate the rigid price controls of the USSR?

By civics, I suppose. Remember that price controls and low inflation are two different things. In fact, attempts to freezing prices artificially caused the appearing of black markets and, in the end, the prices skyrocketed. Nowadays, after the USSR collapse, the consensus (if this exists in economics) about inflation control tell us that the best solution are rigid fiscal and monetary policies by the government.

also I think the skyscraper is OP! it gives 3 5 5

Yeah, I agree. Did you read my excel file? There I proposed +3 hammer and -10% less food to grow (because skyscrapers don't effectively produce food, but in the case of residencial ones, they allow an arise in the pop density).

 

[Afforess]

By civics, I suppose. Remember that price controls and low inflation are two different things. In fact, attempts to freezing prices artificially caused the appearing of black markets and, in the end, the prices skyrocketed. Nowadays, after the USSR collapse, the consensus (if this exists in economics) about inflation control tell us that the best solution are rigid fiscal and monetary policies by the government.

Like that will ever happen...

 

[konradcabral]

Like that will ever happen...

Don't be so hard... it happened here in Brazil! After 50 years or more of inflation struggling, with Plano Real (1994) we managed to bring it to civilized levels. Since then, we are living in a kind of "golden age"...

 

[civ_king]

By civics, I suppose. Remember that price controls and low inflation are two different things. In fact, attempts to freezing prices artificially caused the appearing of black markets and, in the end, the prices skyrocketed. Nowadays, after the USSR collapse, the consensus (if this exists in economics) about inflation control tell us that the best solution are rigid fiscal and monetary policies by the government.




Yeah, I agree. Did you read my excel file? There I proposed +3 hammer and -10% less food to grow (because skyscrapers don't effectively produce food, but in the case of residencial ones, they allow an arise in the pop density).

I need to get iWork first (I'm on a Macintosh)

 

[Afforess]

Don't be so hard... it happened here in Brazil! After 50 years or more of inflation struggling, with Plano Real (1994) we managed to bring it to civilized levels. Since then, we are living in a kind of "golden age"...

But you don't have a corrupt government where political parties own the media and couldn't care less about constituents. (Yes, I am referring to the USA). If only there was a good 3rd party.

 

[konradcabral]

But you don't have a corrupt government...

It's my turn to laugh.

 

[civ_king]

But you don't have a corrupt government where political parties own the media and couldn't care less about constituents. (Yes, I am referring to the USA). If only there was a good 3rd party.

well one party is in the process of imploding (though it has a small chance not to) so maybe we will see the rise of another party to take its place! (I hope so)

 

[Afforess]

It's my turn to laugh.

sorry. As corrupt a government.

well one party is in the process of imploding (though it has a small chance not to) so maybe we will see the rise of another party to take its place! (I hope so)

Eh, IMO, both parties are suiciding. Democracts because of all the stupid legislation they passed (Stimulus, Omnibus, HealthCare) and Republicans because they always pick either very authoritarian candidates (Bush) that harm the party or weak moderates (McCain).

 

[Killtech]

But you don't have a corrupt government where political parties own the media and couldn't care less about constituents. (Yes, I am referring to the USA). If only there was a good 3rd party.

most countries over here in europe have too many parties. we could spare you some. (Actually in Germany we have 5 parties in the prliament and uncountable many on the election sheet)

Eh, IMO, both parties are suiciding. Democracts because of all the stupid legislation they passed (Stimulus, Omnibus, HealthCare) and Republicans because they always pick either very authoritarian candidates (Bush) that harm the party or weak moderates (McCain).

for european standarts you don't have any health care. what's so bad about health? none here in europe could seriously understand all the protest in the USA against the Obamas health program. i'm really intrigued to know why you think it's bad!?

 

[Afforess]

for european standarts you don't have any health care. what's so bad about health? none here in europe could seriously understand all the protest in the USA against the Obamas health program. i'm really intrigued to know why you think so!?

Obama's health care bill isn't Universal Health Care. It's manditory (private) health insurance, with fines if you don't get care. So basically, it screws over the poor people.

Health Care in the US was great before the Gov't got it's grubby hands all over it. They turned it into miniature monopolies backed by the government and with care enforced. My health insurance MUST include coverage for mammograms, and I'm a guy. There are tons of little things like this. It wastes my money.


But really, my problem with Universal Health Care is larger than that.


1.) It's unconstitutional. I don't know European Countries Constitutions, but in the USA bill of rights, the 10th amendment states: The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the states, are reserved to the states respectively, or to the people. Since Health Care was not in the constitution, any laws about it belong to the states, or else we have to make a constitutional amendment.

2.) Our government sucks at running businesses. "The USPS has received numerous government bailouts which are taxpayers' dollars." Wikipedia. If our government can't run a postal service (It's competitors, DHL, FedEx and UPS have never been bailed out) better than real companies, why would we expect anything different with health care?

3.) Corruption. If my government controls the health care, and I am not a priority individual to the government, who says they have to give me the best care possible? They could allow political opponents to die. I know Big Insurance and Big Pharma are corrupt as well, but less corrupt than the government at least.

 

[Elucidus]

Obama's health care bill isn't Universal Health Care. It's manditory (private) health insurance, with fines if you don't get care. So basically, it screws over the poor people.

Health Care in the US was great before the Gov't got it's grubby hands all over it. They turned it into miniature monopolies backed by the government and with care enforced. My health insurance MUST include coverage for mammograms, and I'm a guy. There are tons of little things like this. It wastes my money.


But really, my problem with Universal Health Care is larger than that.


1.) It's unconstitutional. I don't know European Countries Constitutions, but in the USA bill of rights, the 10th amendment states: The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the states, are reserved to the states respectively, or to the people. Since Health Care was not in the constitution, any laws about it belong to the states, or else we have to make a constitutional amendment.

2.) Our government sucks at running businesses. "The USPS has received numerous government bailouts which are taxpayers' dollars." Wikipedia. If our government can't run a postal service (It's competitors, DHL, FedEx and UPS have never been bailed out) better than real companies, why would we expect anything different with health care?

3.) Corruption. If my government controls the health care, and I am not a priority individual to the government, who says they have to give me the best care possible? They could allow political opponents to die. I know Big Insurance and Big Pharma are corrupt as well, but less corrupt than the government at least.

I could not have put it better myself. I am in the military and well if what I have is an indication of the type of health care that will be provided, I don't have a lot of hope.

 

[civ_king]

Obama's health care bill isn't Universal Health Care. It's manditory (private) health insurance, with fines if you don't get care. So basically, it screws over the poor people.

Health Care in the US was great before the Gov't got it's grubby hands all over it. They turned it into miniature monopolies backed by the government and with care enforced. My health insurance MUST include coverage for mammograms, and I'm a guy. There are tons of little things like this. It wastes my money.


But really, my problem with Universal Health Care is larger than that.


1.) It's unconstitutional. I don't know European Countries Constitutions, but in the USA bill of rights, the 10th amendment states: The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the states, are reserved to the states respectively, or to the people. Since Health Care was not in the constitution, any laws about it belong to the states, or else we have to make a constitutional amendment.

2.) Our government sucks at running businesses. "The USPS has received numerous government bailouts which are taxpayers' dollars." Wikipedia. If our government can't run a postal service (It's competitors, DHL, FedEx and UPS have never been bailed out) better than real companies, why would we expect anything different with health care?

3.) Corruption. If my government controls the health care, and I am not a priority individual to the government, who says they have to give me the best care possible? They could allow political opponents to die. I know Big Insurance and Big Pharma are corrupt as well, but less corrupt than the government at least.

but the poor are already covered by the government

 

[Cyrusfan]

Except for the 30 million or 50 billion or whatever that Obamacare is supposed to magically cover at no cost to anyone.

 

[NBAfan]

I agree with you guys on health care, but I think we should get back on topic. I like your changes konradcabral except the Colossus and the Moai Statues. I think Paved Roads should also give a bonus with Oil and Rubber.

 

[Afforess]

but the poor are already covered by the government

Not after Obama's Health Care passes. How do you think he is going to pay for it? He's taking 500 million and diverting it from Medicare & Medicaid.

Everyone is right though, this thread got way off track.

 

[Cyrusfan]

And here I was hoping for a discussion of a Universal Health Care Wonder.

+5 -25% +5 in al cities...