Better RoM Discussion: Wonders

[civ_king]

And here I was hoping for a discussion of a Universal Health Care Wonder.

+5 -25% +5 in al cities...

why those? I can see the -25% but the food? and in European countries they are healthier then the US, Canadians live longer too-they have true universal health care (by the government)
also I think the Socialized Medicine Civic covers it fine

 

[Afforess]

I'm not adding wonders. Not for Better RoM anyway.

Also, in addition to KonradCabel's suggestions, I moved the Longevitiy wonder into a project. Here's it's new attributues:

+1 happy in all cities in the world
+1 health in all cities in the world
+1 happy in all cities for the player
+1 health in all cities for the player

Summarized, the constructing player gets 2 happiness and healthiness in all their cities, and everyone else gets 1. Any other wonders that should really be projects? I was thinking the Theory of Evolution should be, but I don't know what to give it for modifiers.

 

[Elucidus]

why those? I can see the -25% but the food? and in European countries they are healthier then the US, Canadians live longer too-they have true universal health care (by the government)
also I think the Socialized Medicine Civic covers it fine

People aren't healthier elsewhere because of their healthcare, it is their lifestyle. Healthcare is there when you aren't healthy not to keep you healthy. Most healthcare I know of doesn't provide a lot of preventive care, but I don't live in Europe or Canada so they could/ My point is that people who take better care of themselves live longer and are healthier. I know from experience.

Now back on topic. Is an extra +1 health and happiness on top of the everyone bonus worth the project being built if it gives everyone else a base +1 health and happiness.

Don't get me wrong it makes sense that everyone in the world benefit, but maybe a monetary bonus to represent the sale of proprietary inventions/medicines.

 

[Praetyre]

"Universal Health Care" would be a civic, not a project, and it's already covered under the Socialized option. Lord help us if we try and go for realistic rather than balanced civics, else we'll get 50 page debates on whether communism should get a production bonus, on Friedman vs Mises vs Hayek vs Keynes vs Marx and whose economics would be correct in the game engine (for example, the causes of any financial crisis effect would be totally different under each system) and let's not even get started on healthcare/welfare things.

Back on topic: It strikes me as strange the Apollo Project does not grant happiness. It was a major national pride thing back in the 60's, and I imagine a civ making it to the moon first would be pretty morale lifting.

 

[Afforess]

Don't get me wrong it makes sense that everyone in the world benefit, but maybe a monetary bonus to represent the sale of proprietary inventions/medicines.

Indeed. The AI thinks exactly the same way, I programmed it to avoid making projects that help the world when they have more enemies than friends...

What monetary benefits would you give it?

Back on topic: It strikes me as strange the Apollo Project does not grant happiness. It was a major national pride thing back in the 60's, and I imagine a civ making it to the moon first would be pretty morale lifting.

Added.

 

[Cyrusfan]

On the Theory of Evolution, I guess it depends on how big a deal you want to make of it. A free technology for everyone else when the builder gets two? Depending on how well the tech rubber band is working at that point (I find it far more noticeable early on), everyone else is already getting a bonus for you having the extra techs. Maybe a beaker bonus for the building and Golden Ages for everyone?

civ_king, I was making a joke that I had to go all the way to "soylent green is people" to suggest something worse than Obamacare, but it was mostly a throwaway comment without much thought as Afforess wants us back on topic. The health penalty was a reflection of making the switch without simultaneously expanding the supply of doctors-everyone gets something they call 'health care' but it's nothing terribly useful. But as has been discussed above, civics already cover the topic and the unrest (see Parties, Tea) covers the transition effects in game.

 

[civ_king]

People aren't healthier elsewhere because of their healthcare, it is their lifestyle. Healthcare is there when you aren't healthy not to keep you healthy. Most healthcare I know of doesn't provide a lot of preventive care, but I don't live in Europe or Canada so they could/ My point is that people who take better care of themselves live longer and are healthier. I know from experience.

Now back on topic. Is an extra +1 health and happiness on top of the everyone bonus worth the project being built if it gives everyone else a base +1 health and happiness.

Don't get me wrong it makes sense that everyone in the world benefit, but maybe a monetary bonus to represent the sale of proprietary inventions/medicines.

FYI Canada focuses on preventive care, that's why they live longer, also it increases productivity

 

[szemek77]

But you don't have a corrupt government where political parties own the media and couldn't care less about constituents. (Yes, I am referring to the USA). If only there was a good 3rd party.

We all DO have these

 

[szemek77]

About Moai Statues: Dancing Hoskuld gave the same argument of making islands productive, and I respond the same way as before: it's not realistic nor reasonable! A really correct measure would be making the Statues a religious --> artistic --> touristic wonder and create or modify another one to substitute that ability for one-tile islands.

It is not realistic, but it is reasonable Taking your point of view, 95% of RoM wonders should only have culture (and some tourism ----> financial) bonuses.
We need to diversify the effects, and I will repeat - for better balance we need to boost production. I'm really fed up with 3 cities in which building BASIC infrastructure takes for ever.

About Global Stock Exchange: IMO this should be the ultimate financial wonder, this was the cause of the 75%. I'm thinking about suggesting an economic modcomp, with some improvements, currently not, or badly, simulated in Civ. Examples: insurance, derivatives, stock exchange itself (creating a Stock Exchange NW and making Wall Street a WW), inflation, etc.. I'm an economist and I think I could give good suggestions about this, what do you think?

I agree and support the idea, however it will take time to make it balanced. Currently the game is unpredictible in latest stages when you can get hundreds of surpluss or losses, due to inflation, cancelling of specific wonders effects and so on.

About 3G Dam: in my last 50 games, I never built a single power plant, I always beeline plastics and rush 3G Dam, so I'm trying to avoid that. Maybe it is a field to be treated by Power Mod, suggested by Hydromancerx, which I fully support.

Good point. That is why I suggested to limit the territory 3G Dam applies.

 

[Killtech]

And here I was hoping for a discussion of a Universal Health Care Wonder.

+5 -25% +5 in al cities...

People aren't healthier elsewhere because of their healthcare, it is their lifestyle. Healthcare is there when you aren't healthy not to keep you healthy. Most healthcare I know of doesn't provide a lot of preventive care, but I don't live in Europe or Canada so they could/ My point is that people who take better care of themselves live longer and are healthier. I know from experience.

belive me people are much healthier. and this is the problem: here in Germany i see permanently old people (70+) making biking tours form france to germany, skiing, jogging of course and talking about their last holidays in the amazonas.

and when you go to a doctor you find many of these people there making routine checks and getting some health tips form their doctor. in fact you very rarly see sick people in the waiting rooms of doctors. since every one is forced to pay his health-insurance he can go to the doctor as he pleases what people automatically do. and in effect there's less money spent if a health issue is cured before it really starts.

the real problem about health care is that old people live much longer so the old-age pension has to be paid much longer and therefore -20% . it might sound macabre but it is really an economic problem.

ok, sorry that was my last post off-topic

on topic i can add that i concur with szemek77

[...]Is an extra +1 health and happiness on top of the everyone bonus worth the project being built if it gives everyone else a base +1 health and happiness.

Don't get me wrong it makes sense that everyone in the world benefit, but maybe a monetary bonus to represent the sale of proprietary inventions/medicines.

point taken: africa cannot afford AIDS medicaments and is not allowed to reproduce them. no money -> no health. this just reminds me on Loius Armstrong song: "What a wonderful world", isn't it?

 

[konradcabral]

It is not realistic, but it is reasonable

Nooooo, it's noooootttt...

Taking your point of view, 95% of RoM wonders should only have culture (and some tourism ----> financial) bonuses.
We need to diversify the effects, and I will repeat - for better balance we need to boost production. I'm really fed up with 3 cities in which building BASIC infrastructure takes for ever.

My guess wouldn't be 95%, but 15%. There are science, religious, production wonders... Of course we need to find alternative to these low-hammer cities, but an mistake / flaw don't justify others. So, I'm going to do a last try to convince you guys about Moai.

Make Moai a culture world wonder (not NW) and make The Colossus take its place! Give it the +1 hammer per water tile ability and build it in your island. Why this is coherent?

What were the Colossus' functions? Being the entrance to Rhodes' harbor and yard where its ships were built, a lighthouse, and a cultural monument which inflicts fear and envy to other civs. What is the lighthouse ability in Civ IV? Connect the dots. +1 hammer per water tile is perfect! Maybe some war weariness to your enemies, like Statue of Zeus, could be added, but isn't my focus.

Isn't that solution genial? It came to me yesterday, before sleeping. Two birds with a same rock, or how we say here in Brazil, two rabbits with only an staff hit!

I agree and support the idea, however it will take time to make it balanced. Currently the game is unpredictible in latest stages when you can get hundreds of surpluss or losses, due to inflation, cancelling of specific wonders effects and so on.

I already started to gather some ideas, I think it can be very good! What I'll need in need is anyone to show / explain me how inflation cost is really calculated now, so I can give my opinions.

 

[civ_king]

Brazil is more barbaric then I thought

J/K

 

[Elucidus]

What kind of bonus? I don't know you are the modder. A bonus to trade routes?


@ konradcabral, if you wanted to enhance the later economic model I say go for it. The more in depth things are the more I enjoy it. But it will take some time to balance things out, there is so much involved in ROM that makes things take longer to balance from what I have seen.

Moai should remain, it is a national wonder colossus is world, therefore only one civ would get the hammer wonder.

Building power plants isn't that big of a deal for me. I usually build 3G Dam shortly after my biggest cities have had a power plant, but I think continent wide is a good benefit.

@ Civ King and Killtech,
And my point stands, especially with Killtech talking about old people riding their bike from France to Germany or whatever, that is exercise, its not like they saw their doctor and suddenyl were able to rise their bikes like that. That is why they are living longer, exercise. Preventive medicine will help a little, but exercise is the key. I can tell you from my own life. A few years ago I suffered from daily migraines, acid reflux, sleep apnea, and a bunch of other things I can't think of. I took 6 pills a day to treat these things. I weighed almost 50 pounds heavier than I do now. I have since been exercising daily, lost fifty pounds and ride my bike to work. I now no longer suffer from those things. Occasionally, I'll have a migraine now or something like that, but I am much healthier and my healthcare didn't change. That is why I said I knew from experience. Preventive medicine is a great help but nothing will help someone more than exercise. And I am pretty sure our new healthcare won't include preventive medicine, in fact it will probably lead to worse healthcare all around. IMHO.

 

[konradcabral]

@ konradcabral, if you wanted to enhance the later economic model I say go for it. The more in depth things are the more I enjoy it. But it will take some time to balance things out, there is so much involved in ROM that makes things take longer to balance from what I have seen.

Thanks for the support. Balancing is always hard, but I think we can reach it.

Moai should remain, it is a national wonder colossus is world, therefore only one civ would get the hammer wonder.

This argument is not valid. If Moai was a regular building and I wanted to make it a NW, you'd say that your OTHER one-tile islands would lack the production bonus. What is the problem with just one civ have this benefit? Life is hard, and Civ is a competition game, not a game like Simcity (which I love BTW) where it's you against yourself. Again, we should find other ways to improve island hammer. Focus on that.

 

[Killtech]

This argument is not valid. If Moai was a regular building and I wanted to make it a NW, you'd say that your OTHER one-tile islands would lack the production bonus. What is the problem with just one civ have this benefit? Life is hard, and Civ is a competition game, not a game like Simcity (which I love BTW) where it's you against yourself. Again, we should find other ways to improve island hammer. Focus on that.

well it is: Holland has a the 'dicke' that is even better than Moai. and it makes coastal cities too opewerfull. but it comes quite late so it's more or less ok. Moai asregular buliding would be too OP. on the other hand a world wonder wouldn't allow you to plan which city gets it since you need to build it before anyone else does.

sorry but the Maoi just have a too essencial bonus for the game.

@ Civ King and Killtech,
And my point stands, especially with Killtech talking about old people riding their bike from France to Germany or whatever, that is exercise, its not like they saw their doctor and suddenyl were able to rise their bikes like that. That is why they are living longer, exercise. Preventive medicine will help a little, but exercise is the key. I can tell you from my own life. A few years ago I suffered from daily migraines, acid reflux, sleep apnea, and a bunch of other things I can't think of. I took 6 pills a day to treat these things. I weighed almost 50 pounds heavier than I do now. I have since been exercising daily, lost fifty pounds and ride my bike to work. I now no longer suffer from those things. Occasionally, I'll have a migraine now or something like that, but I am much healthier and my healthcare didn't change. That is why I said I knew from experience. Preventive medicine is a great help but nothing will help someone more than exercise. And I am pretty sure our new healthcare won't include preventive medicine, in fact it will probably lead to worse healthcare all around. IMHO.

i disagree. but i won't argue about it. i assume europeans and US have just a too different perspective on that. in the end all i can say and is that in Germany we are very happy about our system and trying to change it to the former american system would fail on the heavy opposition of the people and doctors. maybe everyone just wants to keep what he's used to - at all price.

 

[Afforess]

KonradCabral, here is the forumula from the SDK for the inflation rate:

Spoiler :

int CvPlayer::calculateInflationRate() const
{
	int iTurns = ((GC.getGameINLINE().getGameTurn() + GC.getGameINLINE().getElapsedGameTurns()) / 2);

	if (GC.getGameINLINE().getMaxTurns() > 0)
	{
		iTurns = std::min(GC.getGameINLINE().getMaxTurns(), iTurns);
	}

	iTurns += GC.getGameSpeedInfo(GC.getGameINLINE().getGameSpeedType()).getInflationOffset();

	if (iTurns <= 0)
	{
		return 0;
	}

	int iInflationPerTurnTimes10000 = GC.getGameSpeedInfo(GC.getGameINLINE().getGameSpeedType()).getInflationPercent();
	iInflationPerTurnTimes10000 *= GC.getHandicapInfo(getHandicapType()).getInflationPercent();
	iInflationPerTurnTimes10000 /= 100;

	int iModifier = m_iInflationModifier;
	if (!isHuman() && !isBarbarian())
	{
		int iAIModifier = GC.getHandicapInfo(GC.getGameINLINE().getHandicapType()).getAIInflationPercent();
		iAIModifier *= std::max(0, ((GC.getHandicapInfo(GC.getGameINLINE().getHandicapType()).getAIPerEraModifier() * getCurrentEra()) + 100));
		iAIModifier /= 100;

		iModifier += iAIModifier - 100;
	}

/************************************************************************************************/
/* REVOLUTION_MOD                         01/31/08                                jdog5000      */
/*                                                                                              */
/* Reduced inflation cost for rebels                                                            */
/************************************************************************************************/
	if( isRebel() )
		iModifier -= 50;
/************************************************************************************************/
/* REVOLUTION_MOD                          END                                                  */
/************************************************************************************************/
	iInflationPerTurnTimes10000 *= std::max(0, 100 + iModifier);
	iInflationPerTurnTimes10000 /= 100;

	// Keep up to second order terms in binomial series
	int iRatePercent = (iTurns * iInflationPerTurnTimes10000) / 100;
	iRatePercent += (iTurns * (iTurns - 1) * iInflationPerTurnTimes10000 * iInflationPerTurnTimes10000) / 2000000;

	FAssert(iRatePercent >= 0);

	return iRatePercent;
}

It's just math, it should make sense even if you don't know C. I can explain it for anyone that asks.


As for the Colossus of Rhodes, it was constructed after Alexander the Great's Generals failed to capture the small island of Rhodes. It was firstly a monument to their gods, who they had prayed to for help. It also inspired a sense of awe and fear in all travelers, being 2/3 the size of the Statue of Liberty.

So, with this knowledge, here is the new Colossus:

• +1 Trade Routes for all Coastal Cities
• +50% Trade Route Revenue
• -25% War Weariness
• +1 Happiness from State Religion
• + 4 after research Astronomy

The bonus gold for astronomy is different because when you research Astronomy that's when it goes obsolete. However, it won't stop it from still giving you a boost in revenue from all the other seafaring nations.

Now, I pose a question to everyone:

Why is the Moai Statues a National Wonder and not a World Wonder?

 

[konradcabral]

KonradCabral, here is the forumula from the SDK for the inflation rate:

It's just math, it should make sense even if you don't know C. I can explain it for anyone that asks.

Thank you for the formula, but at first sight I failed to understand it, except by the rev part. If you explain it to me I'd be twice as grateful. So, are you willing to code a economics modcomp for me, knowing that would have new techs, new buildings and even an new specialist?

• +1 Trade Routes for all Coastal Cities
• +50% Trade Route Revenue
• -25% War Weariness
• +1 Happiness from State Religion
• + 4 after research Astronomy

The bonus gold for astronomy is different because when you research Astronomy that's when it goes obsolete. However, it won't stop it from still giving you a boost in revenue from all the other seafaring nations.

I respectfully disagree, because it has very little to do with wealth, but it's far better than the former one.

Why is the Moai Statues a National Wonder and not a World Wonder?

Why, god, why???

 

[Afforess]

KonradCabral, here is the forumula from the SDK for the inflation rate:

Spoiler :

 int CvPlayer::calculateInflationRate() const
 {
     int iTurns = ((GC.getGameINLINE().getGameTurn() +  GC.getGameINLINE().getElapsedGameTurns()) / 2);
 
     if (GC.getGameINLINE().getMaxTurns() > 0)
     {
         iTurns = std::min(GC.getGameINLINE().getMaxTurns(), iTurns);
     }
 
     iTurns +=  GC.getGameSpeedInfo(GC.getGameINLINE().getGameSpeedType()).getInflationOffset();
 
     if (iTurns <= 0)
     {
         return 0;
     }
 
     int iInflationPerTurnTimes10000 =  GC.getGameSpeedInfo(GC.getGameINLINE().getGameSpeedType()).getInflationPercent();
     iInflationPerTurnTimes10000 *=  GC.getHandicapInfo(getHandicapType()).getInflationPercent();
     iInflationPerTurnTimes10000 /= 100;
 
     int iModifier = m_iInflationModifier;
     if (!isHuman() && !isBarbarian())
     {
         int iAIModifier =  GC.getHandicapInfo(GC.getGameINLINE().getHandicapType()).getAIInflationPercent();
         iAIModifier *= std::max(0,  ((GC.getHandicapInfo(GC.getGameINLINE().getHandicapType()).getAIPerEraModifier()   * getCurrentEra()) + 100));
         iAIModifier /= 100;
 
         iModifier += iAIModifier - 100;
     }
 
 /************************************************************************************************/
 /* REVOLUTION_MOD                         01/31/08                                 jdog5000      */
 /*                                                                                               */
 /* Reduced inflation cost for rebels                                                             */
 /************************************************************************************************/
     if( isRebel() )
         iModifier -= 50;
 /************************************************************************************************/
 /* REVOLUTION_MOD                          END                                                   */
 /************************************************************************************************/
     iInflationPerTurnTimes10000 *= std::max(0, 100 + iModifier);
     iInflationPerTurnTimes10000 /= 100;
 
     // Keep up to second order terms in binomial series
     int iRatePercent = (iTurns * iInflationPerTurnTimes10000) / 100;
     iRatePercent += (iTurns * (iTurns - 1) * iInflationPerTurnTimes10000  * iInflationPerTurnTimes10000) / 2000000;
 
     FAssert(iRatePercent >= 0);
 
     return iRatePercent;
 }

Thank you for the formula, but at first sight I failed to understand it, except by the rev part. If you explain it to me I'd be twice as grateful. So, are you willing to code a economics modcomp for me, knowing that would have new techs, new buildings and even an new specialist?

It depends. I want to hear your ideas first.

Here is the inflation calculations in english. The game finds how many turns have passed and divides the turn count by 2. If the game has ended (the player chose to continue after someone won, it uses the amount of turns it took to achieve victory instead). Then, the game looks in the XML for the InflationPercent value in the Civ4GameSpeedInfos.xml. It multiplys the inflation by this. (So that inflation is similar along all game speeds).

Now, if the player is not a human or the barbarian, the inflation is reduced by the AI's handicaps, all in the Civ4HandicapInfos.xml. If the player is a rebel, inflation is reduced by 50%.

Basically, inflation is wholly dependent on the number of turns that have passed. There is no other mechanics that alter it, just the amount of turns.

As for the Colossus of Rhodes, it was constructed after Alexander the Great's Generals failed to capture the small island of Rhodes. It was firstly a monument to their gods, who they had prayed to for help. It also inspired a sense of awe and fear in all travelers, being 2/3 the size of the Statue of Liberty.

So, with this knowledge, here is the new Colossus:

• +1 Trade Routes for all Coastal Cities
• +50% Trade Route Revenue
• -25% War Weariness
• +1 Happiness from State Religion
• + 4 after research Astronomy

I respectfully disagree, because it has very little to do with wealth, but it's far better than the former one.

Wait, you dislike it because it doesn't deal with wealth enough or it deals with wealth too much?

 

[Elucidus]

This argument is not valid. If Moai was a regular building and I wanted to make it a NW, you'd say that your OTHER one-tile islands would lack the production bonus. What is the problem with just one civ have this benefit? Life is hard, and Civ is a competition game, not a game like Simcity (which I love BTW) where it's you against yourself. Again, we should find other ways to improve island hammer. Focus on that.

Actually this is faulty logic, by that stand, why not make every building a wonder.


@Killtech,
I am not saying ever that you should adopt the American system...either one. The fact that you have preventive medicine I think is awesome and I think is the way to go. My argument was simply that exercise and proper eating affects your health more than preventive medicine. That and obamacare is total crap as it won't include preventive medicine and it will waterdown the system that is currently there.

@Afforess,
I'd like to give that wonder a shot.

 

[konradcabral]

Basically, inflation is wholly dependent on the number of turns that have passed. There is no other mechanics that alter it, just the amount of turns.

Thx! I think I can improve inflation mechanics a little. The current method is so crude! I'm going to pack my ideas about Civ economics and create a thread for it.

Wait, you dislike it because it doesn't deal with wealth enough or it deals with wealth too much?

I like it because it succeds in tuning down the Colossus, making it less powerful. Initially I also suggested it as a wealth wonder.

I dislike it because, after deeper consideration, I could see the Colossus acting only in three ways, which I already told:
1) as a gigantic monument, which fascinates foreigners and maybe can give a gold bonus, although in Civ monument provides only culture;
2) as a lighthouse, which gives food per water tiles;
3) and as an entrance for an harbor / yard (ships passed underneath its legs to enter the bay).

Combining these 3 roles, my shot was to give it +1 hammer per water tile and war weariness for your enemies (less than Zeus, so it's not OP).

Actually this is faulty logic, by that stand, why not make every building a wonder.

Because there's a grocer in every corner, a courthouse in every city, a National Epic in (almost) every country, but Moai Statues are unique.