Better RoM: Units

os79

os79

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Mar 14, 2009
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Hello,

This is to tweak upgrade paths or delete few select units that overwhelm the game play. This is in no way intending to "reduce content" or all this :):):):) that other people elsewhere on this CFC forum believe in. We are "content, baby, content" people here, right :D? So let's concentrate on improving units slightly to make for a better Rise of Mankind: A New Dawn game!

On to real stuff:
I will update this post with new ideas and possibly a modmod of my own with these ideas from time to time. It will be a very small modmod because I don't propose to change all that much.... yet.

List of units improved in one way or another:
  • Removed flamethrowers, medic, all dog units, entertainer (to have any of them back just delete that unit's entry in the unitinfos.xml file in my modmod and you have it back in)
  • Afforess' suggestions for Early and Light Tanks
  • Afforess' suggestion for Light/Heavy Cavalry
  • Vincentz' suggestions (except for upgrade path of both seaplanes because I can't find A10, and DCM details for Tracked and Wheeled Units because too detailed for me)
  • Catapults, trebuchets, bombards, and cannons no longer require Siege Workshop or Cannon Forge. They, however, are doubled in their cost. Now Siege Workshop and Cannon Forge will give you 100% bonus to production of these units.
  • Vincentz' suggestion for upgrading of seaplane and its UU version to A-10 Bomber is implemented.

That's it for now.

Installation Instructions:
  1. Download
  2. Unzip to Rise of Mankind/Assets/Modules
  3. Play

Don't worry, MLF entry is already there since my folder had long been in the MLF file :).
 
os79 said:
List of units to improve in one way or another:
  • Flamethrower-why use them at all? No real game play purpose so I will remove it from the game.
Click to expand...


  • Honestly: Because they're cool. You could pull them but my suggestion would be to give them a use instead - perhaps give them a heavy bonus to attacking enemy troops in foliage (forest/jungle) and change their unit type away from Seige Units... I'm not sure what to change them to, but being siege units really limits the promotions they can take.

    The bit I mentioned about mechanized infantry is the same - I use infantry units to hold cities, and mechanized infantry are classed as tracked units - meaning they're ineligible to receive the City Garison I-III and Patrol I-III promotions, even though that is one of the main uses for infantry units in the combined arms era (if I want to attack a city with a tracked unit, I'm going to use a TANK.)

    Rather than removing units, we need to give them each niches so that they are useful - an across the board look at that sort of thing is superior to removal.

    For instance - light tanks move farther, but heavy tanks are just a few more hammers than regular tanks, so light tanks don't need to be pulled or adjusted - something needs to change between regular and heavy.
 
Maybe Flamethrowers could ignore land defence bonuses.
I build a few because they are cool!:D
 
NBAfan said:
Maybe Flamethrowers could ignore land defense bonuses.
I build a few because they are cool!:D
Click to expand...

I do too :D

And, that's exactly about right... Ignores terrain bonuses, unable to get own defense bonuses. Maybe allow them ranged attacks like archers have so they can wear people down before moving in with their lower STR (they'd need a lower STR or higher base hammer cost than standard infantry to be balanced if they ignore terrain defense, or everyone would just build Flamers)
 
Suggestions Incomming!!!!

Javelineer upgrades to Archer AND Spearmen.

MachineGun upgrade to Marine

Seaplane and J2F Seaplane upgrade to A10 Warthog

Grenadier and Moderne Grenadier gets small collateral and DCM bombard :
Spoiler :
Code: 
		<UnitInfo>
			<Class>UNITCLASS_GRENADIER</Class>
			<Type>UNIT_GRENADIER</Type>
			<iCollateralDamage>10</iCollateralDamage>
			<iCollateralDamageLimit>90</iCollateralDamageLimit>
			<iCollateralDamageMaxUnits>1</iCollateralDamageMaxUnits>
			<iBombardRate>2</iBombardRate>

			<iDCMBombRange>1</iDCMBombRange>
			<iDCMBombAccuracy>70</iDCMBombAccuracy>
		</UnitInfo>
		<UnitInfo>
			<Class>UNITCLASS_MODERN_GRENADIER</Class>
			<Type>UNIT_MODERN_GRENADIER</Type>
			<iCollateralDamage>10</iCollateralDamage>
			<iCollateralDamageLimit>80</iCollateralDamageLimit>
			<iCollateralDamageMaxUnits>2</iCollateralDamageMaxUnits>
			<iBombardRate>4</iBombardRate>

			<iDCMBombRange>1</iDCMBombRange>
			<iDCMBombAccuracy>90</iDCMBombAccuracy>
		</UnitInfo>

And then the tricky thing :

Gunpowder units gets something similar to Archery Bombard, but is called Skirmish or Opportunity Fire.

Tracked units gets weak DCM Bombard chance and Opportunity Fire.
 
I like the Tank break-up as it is now, but personally think the flamethrower isn't as useful as it could be(and civs[from RoM] UU's too).
Paratrooper should upgrade to Modern Paratrooper(I think it does already[You might be mentioning about the latter, so maybe these should be merged...]).

As for Tanks, this is what I have to say...
Early Tanks: These should be more of 'moving machine-gun fortresses' rather than actual tanks. So they should be slow and powerful(for the era)*, and be weaker when attacking(or being attacked by) Artillery.
Light Tanks: These should be fast and vunerable, while they can blitz unsuscpecting. Making these fast is a must and weaker* against Machine-guns(making Mahine-guns useful) and anything with a defencive bonus.
Normal Tanks: Normal Tanks are used to aide the Infantry in marching on a city/fortification/etc. Making them strong against attacking forts/cities is probably best, they should be weak against artillery, and any other tank.
Heavy Tanks: Larger tanks are best used as more mobile artillery, also better to defend artillery,(what I mean by this is that they had larger guns and usually had stronger armor than that of normal artillery) and should be able to lay siege on enemy cities.

'That's all folks'-Porkie Pig :p

It's probably time for me to go to bed, don't ya think?
 
There are some UU/UBs that really need some looking at - for example, the French Salon is terrible, and the musketeer doesn't really shine much either.

I've contemplated building a module to bring all of the UU/UBs that are more than just art/name swaps up to speed, but mayhaps that's something we can roll into this.
 
Yeah, many of the UU needs to be updated.

Has anyone ever used the Light/Heavy Cavalry? It seems like a redundant Knight.
 
os79 said:
Hello,

List of units to improve in one way or another:
  • Flamethrower-why use them at all? No real game play purpose so I will remove it from the game.
  • Early tank, tank, and heavy tank-Need to be reduced to just plain Tank. Will need to change its stats a bit. Because early tank, tank, and heavy tank are put together too tightly.
  • Later we will discuss sea units after I understand them or someone else does and try to give their detailed ideas for changes to them.
  • Someone said that Mechanized Infantry needs to stop being upgraded from paratrooper. So please give me different path for paratrooper please and be clear about it.
Click to expand...

I agree with your flamethrower decision. Flamethrowers were all about psychological warfare, which is poorly represented in Civ. I also can't think of an adequate upgrade, so unless someone here has an epiphany, they will get the ax.

The Light Tank should have a movement of 4. (Otherwise the light tank is just a weaker version of the tank, and both are unlocked at the same time). The regular tank and heavy tank are fine as is.

The Early tank should have movement reduced to 1 (Early tanks were basically just huge gun emplacements on treads, used for crushing infantry), and get +25% strength against gunpowder units.

vincentz said:
Suggestions Incomming!!!!

Javelineer upgrades to Archer AND Spearmen.

MachineGun upgrade to Marine

Seaplane and J2F Seaplane upgrade to A10 Warthog

Grenadier and Moderne Grenadier gets small collateral and DCM bombard :
Spoiler :
Code: 
		<UnitInfo>
			<Class>UNITCLASS_GRENADIER</Class>
			<Type>UNIT_GRENADIER</Type>
			<iCollateralDamage>10</iCollateralDamage>
			<iCollateralDamageLimit>90</iCollateralDamageLimit>
			<iCollateralDamageMaxUnits>1</iCollateralDamageMaxUnits>
			<iBombardRate>2</iBombardRate>

			<iDCMBombRange>1</iDCMBombRange>
			<iDCMBombAccuracy>70</iDCMBombAccuracy>
		</UnitInfo>
		<UnitInfo>
			<Class>UNITCLASS_MODERN_GRENADIER</Class>
			<Type>UNIT_MODERN_GRENADIER</Type>
			<iCollateralDamage>10</iCollateralDamage>
			<iCollateralDamageLimit>80</iCollateralDamageLimit>
			<iCollateralDamageMaxUnits>2</iCollateralDamageMaxUnits>
			<iBombardRate>4</iBombardRate>

			<iDCMBombRange>1</iDCMBombRange>
			<iDCMBombAccuracy>90</iDCMBombAccuracy>
		</UnitInfo>

And then the tricky thing :

Gunpowder units gets something similar to Archery Bombard, but is called Skirmish or Opportunity Fire.

Tracked units gets weak DCM Bombard chance and Opportunity Fire.
Click to expand...

I agree with all of those.

Iceciro said:
There are some UU/UBs that really need some looking at - for example, the French Salon is terrible, and the musketeer doesn't really shine much either.

I've contemplated building a module to bring all of the UU/UBs that are more than just art/name swaps up to speed, but mayhaps that's something we can roll into this.
Click to expand...

I recently played a game with the French (In my defense, I had random civ selection on). The salon did suck, but the musketeer's two movement was nice. Until they had to be upgraded. So I think the Musketeer should get 1 movement and the Morale promotion for free. That way upgrading them isn't such a downgrade.

NBAfan said:
Yeah, many of the UU needs to be updated.

Has anyone ever used the Light/Heavy Cavalry? It seems like a redundant Knight.
Click to expand...

Light Calvary should be blitz troops used to clean up or strike fast. They should get 3 movement and 15% Withdraw, and Flanking I and Flanking II free. (Total of 50% Withdraw; max withdraw 75%)

Heavy Calvary should be 1 movement, but get +1 strength.
 
Afforess said:
Light Calvary should be blitz troops used to clean up or strike fast. They should get 3 movement and 15% Withdraw, and Flanking I and Flanking II free. (Total of 50% Withdraw; max withdraw 75%)

Heavy Calvary should be 1 movement, but get +1 strength.
Click to expand...
Sounds good.
 
Afforess said:
I agree with your flamethrower decision. Flamethrowers were all about psychological warfare, which is poorly represented in Civ. I also can't think of an adequate upgrade, so unless someone here has an epiphany, they will get the ax.
Click to expand...
Wikipedia (A totally reliable source) said:
It is primarily used against battlefield fortifications, bunkers, and other protected emplacements.
Click to expand...
I still really like the idea of letting them ignore/reduce fortifications and terrain defenses, which would be something unique to the unit.

Afforess said:
I recently played a game with the French (In my defense, I had random civ selection on). The salon did suck, but the musketeer's two movement was nice. Until they had to be upgraded. So I think the Musketeer should get 1 movement and the Morale promotion for free. That way upgrading them isn't such a downgrade.
Click to expand...

An acceptable compromise, I'd say - though I'm still of the mind that while two movement is useful, they occupy such an odd spot on the tree where generally their time in my build ques is limited, especially compared with monster units like Praetorians, Panzers, or Redcoats. Also, there are dedicated "faster unit" specialists in the same era - cavalry units.
 
Don't kill the flamethrower! I like some of the ideas posted to make it more unique. I think those of even something else could make it completely unique and thus "savable". Like maybe give them the ability to burn down forest or jungle in one turn or faster razing of improvements such as cottages, farms, etc. I could imagine them being of use in taking down an enemies infer-structure fast.
 
Wow, what a great discussion. I will update the post when I'm done with my present game with my modmod attached and changes I selected from your discussion/my thoughts.

But for sure, flamethrowers are out as far as I'm concerned.
Add Afforess unit suggestionss
Add Vincentz' upgrade paths
If you install this modmod later and want ft back, then you can erase ft entry from unitinfos.xml in this modmod and bingo it is back in action. I'm going to use ForceOverwrite tag for my revised units here to ease modularizing process :).

Keep them coming :). I'm in early Modern Era in my game so it will be a while before I decide to toss in the towel due to slowness and annoyances I'm faced with so this thread will be open for a week at least. Then I will add in the modmod and playtest it, then revise and playtest it.

Advertisement time: Highly recommend you use KillTech's BuildingUpgradePath modmod as well because in the next game I will test my modmod with his modmod :).

EDIT: Iceicro, mind creating a list of all Unique Units (no buildings yet, hold that for another discussion please) with your proposed suggestions, please. Take your time but it would be really appreciated :).
 
i think there should also be a sniper unit too. and when fortified in the city, it should be the best defensive unit of its time. or maybe the sniper unit can have something like an opportunity fire and reduce the attackers health before the combat begins.
 
egogo said:
i think there should also be a sniper unit too. and when fortified in the city, it should be the best defensive unit of its time. or maybe the sniper unit can have something like an opportunity fire and reduce the attackers health before the combat begins.
Click to expand...

This modmod will work with units already in default RoM/AND, and no more. So additional unit suggestions are for another discussions for other modders to take up on :).

To further explain why I will toss out Ft instead of doing changes to it is because it would require too much changes when I only want to do small changes with most changes to upgrade paths. I may change my mind but for now I don't really want to change flamethrower but will remove it from the game.
 
os79 said:
This modmod will work with units already in default RoM/AND, and no more. So additional unit suggestions are for another discussions for other modders to take up on :).

To further explain why I will toss out Ft instead of doing changes to it is because it would require too much changes when I only want to do small changes with most changes to upgrade paths. I may change my mind but for now I don't really want to change flamethrower but will remove it from the game.
Click to expand...

oh ok i m sorry then :) i was mistaken :) i better go and find that forum too :)
 
The problem with flamethrowers is that they are useful in only a few specific circumstances that having a unit made out of troops with flamethrowers feels a bit silly.

Snipers are too small to be included as units on the scale of civ. I tend to think of modern units being around brigade or division strength which means that they will most likely already include snipers in them. Snipers would also need to have huge penalties against tracked units and others that cannot be damaged by small arms fire.
 
In my opinion a dedicated sniper unit is better handled by the Special Forces Team (which are awesome for some reason :D)

As for Unique Units - (If I don't list a UU I feel it's good enough to stay)

America: Navy SEAL - Marine with 1-2 first strikes + March. Feels a little weak, but it's not awful. I just would like to see some buff ideas - it's the absolute latest UU in the game.

Aztecs: Jaguar - The Jaguar wasn't very good in base civ, but its worse in RoM because there's an entire other resource to find (obsidian) that enables swordsmen. 90% of the time its just a swordsman with Woodsman 1, and the AI hates forests anyways. It does take five hammers less to build. Again, not sure what I'd do with it, but... probably needs some ideas.

Celtic Empire: Gallic Warrior: Oh, poor Celtic Empire. You get the incredible Boudica and yet your UU and UB are the worst in the entire game. The Warrior is especially bad because the poor guy's only bonus, Guerilla I, is PROVIDED FOR FREE by the UB of the Civ! 0_o I might pull Guerilla I and give them a light collateral stack damage, making them a melee Cho-Ko-Nu and letting them be savage against enemy stacks - another odd possibility is a defensive bonus against enemy melee, considering that the pedia entry mentions them being the first to develop mail armor. This would be at odds with their city attack role, but not useless.

French Empire: Musketeer: I'll take Aforess' idea of giving them 1 movement but the Morale promotion for free so they're at least useful as an upgrade tool on the way up the tree - still not a fan of a movement-only increase when you could just build cavalry units - a tech later you unlock Cavalry Tactics and Curiassiers. I wouldn't be opposed to giving musketeers Patrol I, as an homage to the fact that unlike standard units, they are trained in etiquette and would probably be seen as a sign of honor of France rather than generic troops stationed in a city.

Hittite Empire: Hittite Chariot: Oh wow. It's a chariot that ignores terrain movement costs. Blows. The Hitties are described as having the most well-built chariots of their time period, so perhaps change the bonus vs axemen to a bonus vs melee in general for the Hittite Chariot? Chariots already have a low usability timeframe, so making the UU stronger than normal is a good idea.

Holy Roman Empire: Landsknecht: Why did we nerf this, again? It's got one less strength than a comparable Pikeman. Otherwise, its fine.

Maya: Holkan: Well, in core civ it's a spearman that builds without resources. In RoM ALL SPEARMEN BUILD WITHOUT RESOURCES 0_O so the only thing this unit has going for it is immunity to first strikes, which if I wanted, I would build Horsemen for. The horsemen are supposedly "trained specifically to capture units alive" so I'm not sure how I'd translate that into civ. I'd love them to perhaps attack the weakest unit in a stack? That'd be an interesting dynamic and perhaps make the Maya scary to fight against.

There are others that could probably use 'usefulness buffs' like the fact that we have something like four chariot UUs, but these are the most glaring to me on a quick runthrough of civs.
 
Check the first post for the download.

List of units improved in one way or another:
  • Removed flamethrowers, medic, all dog units, entertainer (to have any of them back just delete that unit's entry in the unitinfos.xml file in my modmod and you have it back in)
  • Afforess' suggestions for Early and Light Tanks
  • Afforess' suggestion for Light/Heavy Cavalry
  • Vincentz' suggestions (except for upgrade path of both seaplanes because I can't find A10, and DCM details for Tracked and Wheeled Units because too detailed for me)

Iceicro, please do over in detail since you did say you just gave a quick list. I will wait until you have detailed list of UUs you want improved before including them in my modmod :).

Vincentz, please give me detailed description or do the work for me for what you suggested on tracked and wheeled units. Also, there is no unit like A10 Warthog for seaplanes to upgrade to so please check that out.

Any more suggestions? Discussions? Opinions?
 
The 'Art' UU's(ones that are exactly the same as the original unit, but with different art), need to be taken out(and giving those countries that have them, give them the art in their Custom Art Styles)/improved, but as of now they are pretty much useless(in terms of gameplay), and add no overall greatness to the game.

Examples of this are:
-Tank UU's(Except the panzer[original])
-the Archer/Longbow UU's
-the numerous cavalry UU's(except the Cossack)
-The Pike/Spear UU's(except for Maya's[at least there is a difference between the original and the UU])
-The Aircraft UU's(that reminds me of the FW190a should be Germany's UU, not Celtic or Viking's UU)
 
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