Better RoM: Units

[os79]

Few typo errors, sorry! So if you downloaded before timestamp of this post, download again from the first post

Fireclaw, if you want to do that, just put -1 in the line
<iCost>###</iCost>.
Not going to touch art only UUs. Not my business and not necessary to remove.

 

[vincentz]

[*]Vincentz' suggestions
(A) (except for upgrade path of both seaplanes because I can't find A10,

(B) and DCM details for Tracked and Wheeled Units because too detailed for me)

(A) Did you try to do a search for A10?

Spoiler :

		<UnitInfo>
			<Class>UNITCLASS_SEAPLANE</Class>
			<Type>UNIT_SEAPLANE</Type>
			<UnitClassUpgrades>
				<UnitClassUpgrade>
					<UnitClassUpgradeType>UNITCLASS_A10_BOMBER</UnitClassUpgradeType>
					<bUnitClassUpgrade>1</bUnitClassUpgrade>
				</UnitClassUpgrade>
			</UnitClassUpgrades>
		</UnitInfo>
		<UnitInfo>
			<Class>UNITCLASS_SEAPLANE</Class>
			<Type>UNIT_J2F</Type>
			<UnitClassUpgrades>
				<UnitClassUpgrade>
					<UnitClassUpgradeType>UNITCLASS_A10_BOMBER</UnitClassUpgradeType>
					<bUnitClassUpgrade>1</bUnitClassUpgrade>
				</UnitClassUpgrade>
			</UnitClassUpgrades>
		</UnitInfo>

(B) Me too. I can put in all the infos, but I need Afforess to change the Archer Bombard to Opportunity Fire and make it available to Gunpowder and Tracked units as well as Archery units.

 

[Killtech]

what i was thinking working on my building mod... siege weapons should not require the siege workshop but(!) instead their cost should be doubled while the siege workshop boosts their production by 100%. couldn't change that solely from the buildings files so i left it out. reason is that the workshop isn't that important to force the AI to build it (as it will build it every city then) but it should still be able to build some siege weapons. and after all in the medieval siege weapons were often build by the military support units directly when they were needed during a siege - so without a special workshop and even without a city.

 

[os79]

what i was thinking working on my building mod... siege weapons should not require the siege workshop but(!) instead their cost should be doubled while the siege workshop boosts their production by 100%. couldn't change that solely from the buildings files so i left it out. reason is that the workshop isn't that important to force the AI to build it (as it will build it every city then) but it should still be able to build some siege weapons. and after all in the medieval siege weapons were often build by the military support units directly when they were needed during a siege - so without a special workshop and even without a city.

Can do in next version.
Questions:
Double cost of both catapults (and their UUs) and trebuchets?
Do the same for Cannon Forge with their respective units, bombards and cannons?

 

[Killtech]

yes, same with all other siege weapons. you will need to rewrite the siege workshop building info for the 100% production boost. luckily i didn't use the bForceOverwrite flag on them, so it my mod won't override the change back.

i'd wait if other agree on that before including.

 

[Iceciro]

I like it, though it would mean I wouldn't build them most of the time - I don't focus on a suicide siege strategy so I need limited numbers of seige units, and it might be cheaper to just skip the siege weapons factories. But I did find it odd they were the only class of units with a building prereq, whereas any city could dig up the parts to put a tank together >_>

I might go with a 50% boost of cost (and a 50% production bonus with the seige workshop) rather than doubling, because that would cause the AI to be quite tied up in building the things.

 

[Killtech]

I like it, though it would mean I wouldn't build them most of the time - I don't focus on a suicide siege strategy so I need limited numbers of seige units, and it might be cheaper to just skip the siege weapons factories. But I did find it odd they were the only class of units with a building prereq, whereas any city could dig up the parts to put a tank together >_>

actually a good point. lack of heavy industry should make an impact on armour production. so factories should boost up tank production on the one hand, base tank cost should rise on the other one. i think i'll make the changes in my next version in my mod (i do override the factory so i have to do it myself).

 

[os79]

Hello, a new updated BR: U in the first post.

New changes are:

• Catapults, trebuchets, bombards, and cannons no longer require Siege Workshop or Cannon Forge. They, however, are doubled in their cost. Now Siege Workshop and Cannon Forge will give you 100% bonus to production of these units.
• Vincentz' suggestion for upgrading of seaplane and its UU version to A-10 Bomber is implemented.

 

[Blackflag421]

This thread is full of good ideas.

German factory - It's a factory with two extra selectable engineer specialists. Germany has a bunch of UU's, so I'm not sure if this is seen as compensating for that.

Celts - Already mentioned, they have the honor of possessing the weakest UU AND UB in the game.

Hittites - UU has been mentioned, but the UB is really strong, especially given RoM:AND's restricted food. Change the 10% food to another 5% production?

 

[os79]

Iceicro, can you take one of your posts here and use it to update with latest suggestions that you think should be used for UUs. Please make it very organized with civilization name and UU name. Please no UB unless it has to do with UU, like what I did with siege weapons and their buildings. Please tell me when you are finally satisfied with that list, and link me to that post. Then I will be more than happy to include that into BR: U .

 

[Killtech]

Celts - Already mentioned, they have the honor of possessing the weakest UU AND UB in the game.

yes, but you should notice that they have one of the most powerful leader traits combinations with Boudica. so Celts+Boudica is most powerful option in the game IMHO.

Hittites - UU has been mentioned, but the UB is really strong, especially given RoM:AND's restricted food. Change the 10% food to another 5% production?

i've fixed that in my mod - the bonus is extremely high, static production increase only available with iron in vicinity (it's an iron forge isn't it?) and the building is replaced by the foundry later on anyway. and btw. its a building problem and we are in a thread about units.

 

[CivEikka]

What about siege units's weak defender promotion?

 

[os79]

What about siege units's weak defender promotion?

Come on. Don't ask a question and let it hang out there. Clarify what you are trying to say, for Christ's sake!

 

[CivEikka]

Come on. Don't ask a question and let it hang out there. Clarify what you are trying to say, for Christ's sake!

The weak defender promotion = only 20% of strength is used in defending, like power 6 siege weapon has onlu power of 1.2 while defending.

 

[os79]

The weak defender promotion = only 20% of strength is used in defending, like power 6 siege weapon has onlu power of 1.2 while defending.

Siege weapons are already awesome collateral damage machine so we already have overpowered siege weapons. We just need to figure out how to limit their use WITHOUT using UnitsPerTile option.

How about making all siege weapons in this line a National weapon?
catapult==>trebuchet==>bombard==>cannon==>artillery==>light artillery==>whatever the name of artillery after that.

Not including machine guns and any other incidental units because they have separate type of military usage.

Catapults=2
Trebuchets=3
bombards and cannons=4
artillery=5
the other more modern artillery=6

Do that work for you?

 

[Killtech]

i'm seceptical about national units because AI doesn't understand the restriction. it probably won't concentrate its siege weapons on the right places. also such a limit is unintuitive.

what i tried earlier was to give artillery 100% retreat chance but far lower strenghts and less colleteral damage. it worked well for the first strikes but having multiple catapults with one hitpoint leftover was annoying as it takes quite some time to get them operational again (it was just faster to build new ones).

best option would be a SDK addition to combat mechanics: an auto retreat after N combat rounds where N is de terminated by a tag in the unit file. this option should represent siege weapons/artilleries role on the historical battlefields best and is most balance at the same time. it would be something in between of bombardment and the default attack. most battles would end with little x% damage done + a bit collateral damage and a slightly 'injured' artillery. (artillery should be left with enough hitpoints to attack for the next few turns without needing to 'heal' and deal enough damage per turn that enemy troops can't recover from all the dealt damage between turns).

 

[Afforess]

Just an FYI, Collateral damage is done on the first round of combat, and every other round proceeds like normal combat, so for it to work like you want, Killtech, you'd need to do a bit more overhauls than just limiting the number of combat rounds.

 

[os79]

Personally, what I want from siege weapons is to revise how they work. Look, in my philosophy of civ game, units warring is a separate thing from city/empire development, OK?

So what I want is this:
Siege weapons in the above-mentioned line don't have ability to attack units like usual. They can bombard but is much more random to simulate enemy's skill at dodging stuff. No promotion here, the actual random skills. For city attack, when bombarding fortification, they can NOT do collateral damage until the defense is at most 5% or so and evne then, the chance for successful CD is fractionally smaller than if there was no city involved.
That scenario would balance my usage of siege weapons because I usually have the stack of
5 swordsmen line units
5 archer line units
5 horse military line units
5 siege line units

Then
5 gunpowder infantry-style line units
5 gun-toting horse units
5 artillery

Then
5 infantry
5 tanks
5 helicopters
5 artillery

So, needless to say, these stacks roll so easily over cities with how siege weapons are designed now. If siege weapons' CD is revised, then 1) siege wapons are still useful for bombarding fortifications and 2) lesser CD and more experiences for my other units in the stacks .

 

[os79]

Just an FYI, Collateral damage is done on the first round of combat, and every other round proceeds like normal combat, so for it to work like you want, Killtech, you'd need to do a bit more overhauls than just limiting the number of combat rounds.

Yep, a big overhaul of Dale's original idea of Collateral Damage need to be done. Remember he visualized the stack as combined arms but it failed miserable for various reasons. So we need to work with one unit vs one unit position, unofrtunately. And redesign from there.

 

[Killtech]

Just an FYI, Collateral damage is done on the first round of combat, and every other round proceeds like normal combat, so for it to work like you want, Killtech, you'd need to do a bit more overhauls than just limiting the number of combat rounds.

huh, i always though it depended on how well the fight went. but ok...

well in that case the collateral damage calculation should be put to the end of the fight and the collateral dmg amount should directly depend on the amount of damage dealt - so the visible fight also represents the result of the attack as a bombardment.

hmm... and in might even be better if siege/artillery only took damage from ranged units or even other siege/artillery only.

[...] For city attack, when bombarding fortification, they can NOT do collateral damage until the defense is at most 5% or so and evne then, the chance for successful CD is fractionally smaller than if there was no city involved.

this option is much better then the current system in terms of balance but its not intuitive. i think if the damage is somehow bound to the damage dealt directly in combat then there are better solutions (if not, well... then it's ok). if so then the expected damage would already depend on the fortification stats since it manipulates the units strengths.