Better than BTS

The AI nuke ban tweak from my latest version may be something appropriate for this mod.
 
jdog5000 said:
I simulated a full game with Better BTS AI 0.2, the replay is attached :cool:
Click to expand...

565AD: Shaka dows on Asoka a non-neighbour but it is a religious war.
950AD: Hannibal becomes a vassal of China (why)
1060AD: Shaka DOWS on neighbour Egypt (why)
1070AD: Shaka and Egypt make peace in 1 turn (how)
1140AD: Ramesse and Asoka dow on China/Hannibal
1140AD: China/Hannibal dow on Mansa (border war! but wise?)
1150AD: Bismarck dows on China/Hannibal(Bismarck is being squeezed)
1170AD: China/Hannibal break away from each other
1180AD: Shaka dows Asoka a non-neighbour (why)
1200AD: Isabella dows on Shaka a non-neighbour (probably religion)
1210AD: Asoka, Isabella and Shaka make peace in 1 turn (how)
1295AD: Shaka turns on neighbour Ramesse (border war!)
1300AD: Asoka and China declare peace but Asoka still at war on Hann
1310AD: Ramesse and China declare peace but Ramesse still at war on Hann
1315AD: China becomes vassal of Bismarck and thus at war on Hann (border war!)
1315AD: China/Bismarck at peace with Mansa because of vassal agreement
1350AD: Ragnar dows on China/Bismarck (in centre hotspot)
1355AD: Shaka making good progress in border war with Egypt
1370AD: Bismarck making good progress on Hannibal
1385AD: Bismarck/China make peace with Hannibal
1390AD: Hannibal makes peace with Mansa
1460AD: Ragnar looses war and becomes vassal of Bismarck/China
1470AD: Hannibal looses war and becomes a vassal of Asoka
1485AD: Shaka wins war on Ramesse extending border territory and peace declared
1495AD: Ramesse becomes a vassal of Shaka
1515AD: Shaka/Ramesse declare regional war on Isabella
1570AD: Shaka wins border territory from Isabella and Isabella becomes a vassal
1595AD: Bismarck/China/Ragnar DOW on Shaka/Ramesse/Isabella (emerging east/west conflict)
1655AD: East/West war over with Bismarck making some border territory on Shaka
1728AD: Bismarck/China/Ragnar DOW on Asoka/Hannibal (why)
1734AD: Shaka/Ramesse/Isabella DOW on Bismarck/China/Ragnar(good)
1750AD: Good border wars between vassal rival
1766AD: Bismarck making good progress in border war with Ramesse
1776AD: Wars over leaving Bismarck and Shaka with a little more border territory
1796AD: Bismarck/China/Ragnar peace with Asoka/Hann with Bismarck making more centre territory
1800AD: All old world wars are over and now new world race begins
1824AD: Shaka/Ramesse/Isabella DOW on Bismarck/China
1851AD: Ragnar liberates new world to Roosevelt
1855AD: Bismarck looses significant ground in border war with Shaka
1856AD: Bismarck/China break apart
1860AD: Shaka/Ramesse/Isabella make peace with Bismarck and vassal him
1860AD: Bismarck turns on broken vassal china (border war in centre)
1878AD: Shaka(west) captures China city (east) how?
1878AD: China becomes vassal of Shaka
1891AD: Mansa gets on with wonder construction
1892AD: Mansa at war with Ragnar in new world (how)
1898AD: Shaka/Ramesse/Isabella/Bismarck(west super power) DOW on Mansa
1908AD: West war against Mansa over with Mansa loosing old world territory
1918AD: Mansa looses old world territory to Ragnar in only old world war
1924AD: New world/old world war begins between West super power against Ragnar/Roosevelt
1934AD: Old world war status quo but new world war favours west super power
1934AD: Ragnar/Roosevelt become vassals to western super power nations
1936AD: Ramesse breaks vassal arrangement with western super power because of new world territory gains
1941AD: Ramesse returns to the western super power as a vassal (good idea!)
1941AD: Mansa liberates old world city to Asoka/Hannibal
1943AD: Mansa almost non-existent in old world but has large new world territory
1945AD: World war between west/east including Mansa verses the West
1959AD: World peace with the western super power making good progress
1959AD: Ramesse breaks free of western super power and continues war on Asoka in new world(not a good idea?)
1969AD: Western super power DOWS on Ramesse (punishment)
1974AD: War over Ramesse gains in new world but looses in old world
1978AD: Massive world war

-Shaka head of the western super power wins a diplomatic victory-

These are my comments:
1) sounds like a heap of fun
2) there seems to be a mix of border conflict and religious conflict early
3) a couple of questionable war decisions
4) The early phases of the old world wars need examining
5) The interaction between the old world and new world is complicated and possibly produces questionable war declarations
6) This game started with low number of civs and thus was not all about border wars. If you start with high numbers of civs, border war is much more emphasised earlier.
7) This behaviour of Better than BTS seems consistent and reasonable.

Cheers.
 
Yeah, religion and more broadly relations, still have a very strong effect on wars ... Shaka was on pretty good terms with his neighbors and so only had either 60% (Cautious) or 10% (Pleased) chance of considering war against them. His first DOW on Asoka fell to his 3rd choice (in terms of startWarVal) because of relations which were fueled by sharing religion.

You can see that Shaka's startWarVal for Egypt was higher but his relations with them caused him to sometimes choose war against India instead in the beginning. He also had a small chance of DOW on Isabella iirc.

I have saves from BC 800 every turn through the rest of the game if you want to check any of them out. I'll look into those strange early peace deals, that seems a little odd.
 
jdog5000 said:
Yeah, religion and more broadly relations, still have a very strong effect on wars ... Shaka was on pretty good terms with his neighbors and so only had either 60% (Cautious) or 10% (Pleased) chance of considering war against them. His first DOW on Asoka fell to his 3rd choice (in terms of startWarVal) because of relations which were fueled by sharing religion. You can see that Shaka's startWarVal for Egypt was higher but his relations with them caused him to sometimes choose war against India instead in the beginning. He also had a small chance of DOW on Isabella iirc.
Click to expand...

When Shaka finally dows on his neighbour Egypt in 1295AD, that is the beginning of the Zulu victory. That was a border war.

The other beautiful thing about the BTS engine in this example was Mansa. His AI seemed to concentrate on non-violence and culture and finally when the pressure on him in the old world got too much, he successfully colonised the new world, to such an extent that his new world existence was much more influential than his old world was. However he had heavily built a lot of culture in his old world territory which ensured his survival.

We should not destroy the beautiful relationships between the various paths that are possible in this great game. We should just continue to develop without destroying the balance. Difficult.

Of course I realise that on first impression, this "example" contains a lot of warfare which makes "standard" aggression look more like "aggressive ai" in Better Than BTS! But if you were to look at the finer grain of this example, I'm sure there would have been a lot of fun in the non-violence geo-political juggling act even with only nine initial civs!

The other observation is the emergence of better regionality now. I might be delusional but there seems to be much more regional cooperative relationships between ai's emerging in Better than BTS. It's like now that the chance of "spurious" closeness wars are minimised which is equivalent to "noise", the delicate growth of regional cooperative partnerships is now not destroyed.

What is interesting is how in BTS, it appears that smaller numbers of starting civs can mean the emergence of large scale regional partnerships which results in large scale world war later. Starting with high numbers of civs seems to disturb the formation of these large scale partnerships which actually results in less large scale warfare but greater distributed warfare.

Cheers.
 
I'll pipe in: I love the closeness changes. The AI actually eliminates neighboring civs in conquest now. I had almost never seen an AI-on-AI civ destruction before this patch.
 
jdog5000 said:
Version 0.2 is up!
Click to expand...

jdog -- can you start a new thread with the most recent updates in the first post? That way it'll be easier for people who want to give it a try to find the latest version....
 
Referring back to the game sample Jdog supplied, could someone remind me why an AI can declare war and then declare peace in one turn? Probably an explanation but can't think of it. For example in the save game above:

1060AD: Shaka DOWS on neighbour Egypt (why)
1070AD: Shaka and Egypt make peace in 1 turn (how)

Is it simply that AI's never "refuse to talk" with each other only with humans (no big problem with that I think?). What made Shaka want to go to war and then change his mind? What did Egypt supply him with to appease him in only 1 turn?

I wonder if Jdog still has the autosaves for this situation?

EDIT: Doooh. Forgot possible vassal arrangements affecting these instant war/peace declarations. Did Egypt sign a vassal arrangement with someone Shaka is not at war with?

Cheers
 
Could have been a random event, too (one of those "peacemakers" ones).

EDIT: AIs do "refuse to talk" to one another. If 2 AIs are at war, and you contact one of them to see if they'll make peace with the other, sometimes the peace option is redded out, and says "we'd love to, but you'll have to contact them" implying that the other AI "refuses to talk" to that one.
 
BobTheTerrible said:
EDIT: AIs do "refuse to talk" to one another. If 2 AIs are at war, and you contact one of them to see if they'll make peace with the other, sometimes the peace option is redded out, and says "we'd love to, but you'll have to contact them" implying that the other AI "refuses to talk" to that one.
Click to expand...

Is refusing to talk the reason for that? I thought it was one AI was simply losing and you'd have to give stuff to the other AI to get them to stop the bloodshed since they were winning.

EDIT: As I thought, this is triggered when one AI has a very different AI_endWarVal than the other, usually because one is winning. There does not seem to be a block in AI_makePeaceTrade for refusal to talk.
 
BobTheTerrible said:
Could have been a random event, too (one of those "peacemakers" ones).

EDIT: AIs do "refuse to talk" to one another. If 2 AIs are at war, and you contact one of them to see if they'll make peace with the other, sometimes the peace option is redded out, and says "we'd love to, but you'll have to contact them" implying that the other AI "refuses to talk" to that one.
Click to expand...

I've never seen this option redded out for both parties. If it's redded out for one, it means you have to talk to the other party, who will be amenable to the idea of a bribe to end the war.
 
You guys are right. I never really thought about it. I assumed that the AI that was saying "you'll have to contact them" was open to peace, but the other AI just had "refused to talk" to them (just like how when an AI declares war on you, you may or may not be open to contacting them, but they won't let you).
 
So excuse me if I'm confused but are we back to square one? That is why and how does an AI declare and retract a war declaration in one turn? If only one party refuses to talk that should be sufficient to cancel any possibility of retracting the war declaration immediately?

It may not even matter to the Better Than BTS discussions. Wasn't Yakk indirectly harking to this "issue" on page 1 post 1 of this forum?

If Jdog still has the saves that would be good but if not that's cool because this situation happens fairly regularly and can be recreated and has probably been resolved on some other forum anyway....

Cheers.
 
Very good begining :). I hope you'll manage to learn to the AI to do serious amphibious attack at the end.:goodjob:
 
Hello everyone,

Glad to see there is still some interest in this.

As I mentioned in my response to the sourceforge private message, I would be happy to add some folks as developers/admins to the sourceforge site. just pm me your unix name (not password) for the sourceforge site.

I am not sure what the process is to get the admin of this forum changed, but I would be happy to do that as well.

-Iustus
 
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