[Beyond the Sword] Necro Cristi

[arkham4269]

More leaders is ALWAYS a good thing. Please feel free to suggest ideas about these. I'm not familiar with SMAC, but I'll look into it.

http://www.firaxis.com/smac/factions.cfm gives a break down of the factions. I think you'll see what I mean by them being good starting archetypes.

 

[arkham4269]

I agree, but I really dont want to shoe-horn specific ways of playing. I do want the zombies to be a definitve threat, a legitimate danger to the world. I suppose that there could be various techniques with dealing with the zombies, such as the New Atlanteans Retroviral solution, or the Homeland Security's goal to cleanse the plague.

Well a late game way to get zombies back in the game is to take a page from Dark Horse's Alien series. In those, a lot of time you constantly get humans trying to 'weaponize' the Aliens. This always ends badly. I could see certain factions doing the same and thus potentially 'reigniting' another wave of zombies.

I think this is needed because I'm sure we've all read World War Z and seem lots of plot wholes. I mean in the first battle of Yonkers they talked about how the tank weapons didn't have that much effect. Well as a 17.5 Army vet, I can tell you that a M1A1-2 buttoned up would kill lots of zombies simply by running them over. A effective anti-zombie weapon would be a simple mind flail. So obviously there is a suspension of disbelief. My point is, once humans 'catch their wind' zombies, or at least the initial 'classic' zombies become less of a threat. It's like most horror creatures; scary and deadly against teenagers but not so much against a squad with automatic weapons.

One thing I would like to point out in relation to World War Z and how humans are going to have a rough time of it is food. The zombies eat our domesticated animals, they make even fishing a dangerous activity and cultivating a lot of land is also going to be rough since all of those lands must be rigorously watched. So in one respects, early on, the humans are going to be in for a tough time since they can't grow very quickly. Again though, once a tipping point is reached, you get the ability to grow faster which means you produce faster which means you can kill more zombies and the cycle continues...until someone tries to weaponize zombies for their army I guess.

 

[Korias]

Weaponization certainly was a part of the mod in the original, a choice via the Flesh of Voudoun religion and the Co-Existance Civic. I have a feeling, however, that as the tech level advances, greater zombies could emerge through evolution or just plain science gone wrong.

In the "Response to Undead" civic catagory, every civ is set to "Terror". The population is scared of the mindless hordes that feel no fear, no pain, no hunger. As time goes on, Co-Existance, Destruction, Enslavement, and other options could open up to explain that the people are learning to fight back against the undead instead of being overrun. True, a tank could work against crawlers, but would you risk your single most powerful unit to the horde? And when stronger zombies come around, such as a Spitter, its even more of a risk to put the tank up when hundreds of zombies could bash it apart. In Dawn of the Dead, the trucks were broken into because the zombies kept whacking at it, not detered by their fingers and palms being ripped to shreds by the barbed wire.

Keep the ideas coming. The more we can flesh out now, the easier it will be to mesh everything together and keep it connected.

 

[arkham4269]

Well for the most part I think the whole 'suspension of disbelief' because for the most part, like in Fury Road, all the original nasty stuff happened 'off camera' since the game is starting from a point after the main zombie apocalypse. The survivors don't have the tanks anymore and couldn't support/maintain them if they could.

BTW, if you haven't already, there was/is a LOT of great info to be gleaned from the Fury Road mod since we all argued extensively about many concepts. For example, as a steampunk fan, I argued that steam engines and the like would be more economical due to the difficulty of obtaining oil and the like. While that idea got shot down (mostly to keep with Fury Road's Mad Max theme) the idea still has merit. We all discussed a lot of how people who know of technology but can't reproduce it (yet) changes the tech tree.

Since I don't think there is any way to keep zombies 'invisible' underwater, I definitely think that zombies should be able to spawn in coastal hexes and be able to attack coastal ships.

 

[Deon]

Spoiler :

Well since this is in a sense a 'new' mod, I think it's time to bring up some old ideas.

First off, there is the basic zombie. Zombies infect who they bite, but I don't think units that survive a zombie attack should have a chance of becoming zombies since I'm sure the survivors have learned by the start of the game to kill anyone bitten by a zombie.

So, I'm not sure how it can be done, or if it can be done, but while a individual zombie unit may not have a large attack strength, there needs to be a way to boost it's lethality. I mean in normal Civ, a unit takes damage and then slowly 'regenerates' - well some of that 'regeneration' comes from previously wounded healing up and returning to duty. Yet in the zombie apocalypse, unless you are wounded by stepping in a gopher hole in the battle a wound is as a kill. So maybe the healing rate of units needs to be slowed way, way down. Anyway, I could go on about this, but I think we all can hash this out.

Secondly, specialty zombies: are we going to have them? I'm sure we can steal things like the hunter, tank, smoker, boomer and witch from Left 4 Dead. I'm sure there are other games that have specialty zombies as well.

Thirdly, at some point mankind gets the upper hand and the zombies become less of a threat and so each civ will start to look at other Civs as their primary enemy. I would think that for game play, instead of 'general' civilizations based on nationality, we should perhaps have civs sort of like Fury Road in that their 'nationality' is based on their leader.

In this I mean every group of survivors will probably center around a initial leader that sets the tone for their faction. Whether s/he Survivalist, Despot, Democrat (not the party; one wedded to democracy), Idealist, Green or what have you, each civ should have some sort of goal.

To start with, I think right off the bat, the initial factions should mimic those of Sid Meier's Alpha Centauri. I think it gives a good mix. Plus, I would suggest that each faction has a G/N/E leader like the Orbis Mod has.

Personally I don't like how most Civ games just end up a bitter slugfest toward endgame which is why I like FfH in that you have more special victories. Especially in a game like this with the zombies literally eating up most of the time till midgame, it would be hard to win a lot of the classical victory conditions like conquest. So I think each civ should also have a civ specific victory a la the Rhyse of Mankind mod.

And finally a note about alignments. I think they need to be seen in the sense of the game and not a value judgement on any real world beliefs. To me, especially in the sense of affecting the Safety Counter (if used) a 'evil' act or faction is one which a person today would consider such, regardless of it's actual 'worth' in context of the game. I mean being a despot who has his people take slaves would be consider evil by today's standard. Yet in game terms, it may be his civ that wins over a high-minded civ that ends up not producing enough troops and becomes zombie chow.

Anyway, the point is while the above despot might survive against the zombie, in relation to other human factions, there will be problems. Autocratic Generalissimos tend not to do to well with neutral merchants and high-minded humanitarians. I don't know, maybe we need to change G/N/E to something less emotive and more to something socio-political. Right now I can't think of anything. Something else to discuss.

I agree that zombie attacks should apply a promotion which gives negative healing rate. It will make medical units essential when fighting in the field and also gives a possibility to have a "virus immune" promotion which negates this effect and can be given to a unit when a special tech is discovered.

 

[arkham4269]

Well I would think that the diseased promotion would work but not to think of it as the unit is 'infected' and can't heal as fast as it is in FfH.

In regards to my earlier comments, certainly wounded units would heal by replacements. But again, in classic war, a lot of your replacements are the wounded returning to duty. If a zombie bite is a 100% infection, this wound might as well be a bullet between the eyes.

So my point is that humanity doesn't have a lot of people left and every time you have to pull someone off some vital task to be a 'common' soldier, it's going to hurt. So by having units heal very slowly would show that it takes a lot longer for people to become available to become soldiers. Perhaps there should be an option where two wounded units could merge to make one healthy unit with the promotions of both.

Fighting the zombie horde is tough. In World War Z, there is a chapter where a general talks about how the Zombies fight a Total War in that all they do is attack, attack, attack. Every human bitten or killed and not subsequently destroyed makes them stronger as the humans weaken.

I am reminded of when I was a kid (long long time ago) playing D&D and noticing that often times most parties never got past 3 or 4th level because when they were 1st or 2nd level, they knew they were weak and so a lot of times knew when to run. Yet when they got a little magic and some items, suddenly they thought they could take anything...and 'anything' ended up usually winning.

I think the point of a zombie mod is in the beginning Old Man Zombie is on top and we're going to have to play like hell not to become Brain De Jour. It's like FfH, you need to expect that many/most of your early units are going to die and it's going to take awhile to be in a position to where you can expand.

...and I've been doing to much Civ blogging today. I've cranked out about 5 Civlopedia entries for the Orbis mod. I'm going to take a break and see if I can get off Mercy Hospital's roof alive this tiem.

 

[Korias]

For engines, yes. At least, until the technology can be reclaimed to create more powerful machines. I'm browsing through the Fury Road mod's forums again, moving through and picking out ideas that make sense. Such as the abandoned depots and the randomly spawning heroes and hidden shelters.

You're right, of course. The suspension of disbelief is key for this mod as the world has had time to heal. Its not like the Capital Wasteland, but rather more akin to I am Legend and its environment. Nature has recclaimed much of the natural landscape, but relics of the past exist, such as an abandoned Windmill that provides a powerful boost to the early game- but only if you can master its mechanics- or a broken down vehicle that could be escorted back to a city and repaired. But these are few and far between- roads are eroded, shelters broken and much of the world is left as it was. Cities themselves have crumbled away. But the technology is still there, and can easily intiate another outbreak if handled improperly.

As far as coastal zombies, a more advanced mutation could be of the zombie virus switching to aquatic creatures: Zombified Giant Squid would be absolutely horrible. Combat ships shouldnt be avaliable from the start- the technology needs to be rediscovered before a legitimate ship could ever be used for combat. Fishing will still allow for workboats, and ships could be recclaimed, but these are even rarer than land vehicles. Maybe have "Bloater" zombies that float atop the waves could serve to eliminate the imbalance of having a ocean based resource rather than a land based one, or they simply could be far rarer.


Edit: Base heal rates could be reduced, maybe increased if a Civ has highly militant cities and the people themselves are soldiers, such as the Homeland Security Faction. I do agree, Infection is going to be deadly at the start. But Survivor militias should exist and be relatively easy to produce, and ONLY good for city defense. In FfH, you obtain a free Crusader every so often if you follow Order. Perhaps something similar when you found a city, a single Survivor unit is spawned to defend that city. However, zombie hordes will be large: far larger than what was seen in FfH's Barbarian hordes. Building extra cities will still require additional defensive measures- walls, guards, or later on, Automated weapons if the tech level gets that high. In the Xombie animated series, the human city has an advanced station that detects motion and bodyheat, automating sentries to destroy the creature if no body heat is recognized. Of course, this assumes Zombies have no body temperature. But the case is, cities early on should have some small measure of protection against zombies to defend against the immensely larger hordes.

 

[arkham4269]

For engines, yes. At least, until the technology can be reclaimed to create more powerful machines. ....but relics of the past exist, such as an abandoned Windmill that provides a powerful boost to the early game- but only if you can master its mechanics- or a broken down vehicle that could be escorted back to a city and repaired. But these are few and far between- roads are eroded, shelters broken and much of the world is left as it was. Cities themselves have crumbled away. But the technology is still there, and can easily initiate another outbreak if handled improperly.

If you get a chance, look at S.M. Stirlings "Island in Time" trilogy or the whole 1632 series started by Eric Flint. Both deal with 'uptimers' being thrown back in time and having to work with less. The 1632 series is especially valuable since it has it's own online section and there are a LOT of scholarly articles about what you could do if things collapsed.

Plus how long after the initial apocalypse is the game start? In Fury Road it was about 40-50 years. We need to know because that really affects a lot of stuff. Personally I would think only 5-10 years would be better or maybe 20. Okay, NOW I'm going to go and play L4D!

 

[Korias]

If you get a chance, look at S.M. Stirlings "Island in Time" trilogy or the whole 1632 series started by Eric Flint. Both deal with 'uptimers' being thrown back in time and having to work with less. The 1632 series is especially valuable since it has it's own online section and there are a LOT of scholarly articles about what you could do if things collapsed.

Plus how long after the initial apocalypse is the game start? In Fury Road it was about 40-50 years. We need to know because that really affects a lot of stuff. Personally I would think only 5-10 years would be better or maybe 20. Okay, NOW I'm going to go and play L4D!

It took three years for I am Legend's world to become relatively overgrown. That's how I imagine it, except doubled over in its effect. The 5-10 year range is quite true: But keep in mind this was a world wide outbreak, and billions were consumed in the fires of quarantine. There are ruins, wastelands, and places where the viral mutagen exists in its most potent form. But the word has vast forests, trees old and new growing in peace. The zombies roam the countryside, but only if they're searching for prey. Often, they stay relatively dormant in the urban environments where lone humans scavenge for materials. People that have survived have survived on their wits. Things have changed, and people have a smattering of knowledge. Its not a guarantee that you'll have someone in your starting party that knows the inner workings of complex machinery, as many of the basic techs represent what common knowledge your civilization has. Even with such a short time span, nothing says that everyone will know how to work a windmill or repair a tank, and the time and knowledge to enable your entire civilization to work these relics will be large.

I'll definitely look into the 1632 series for ideas. Online reports say its an incredibly valuable source of information.

 

[Korias]

Duplicate Post.

 

[MasterofLlamas]

Hi, I just downloaded this mod but I have an issue. The menu graphic is the same as regular BTS, with the Necro Cristi music. I'd like to fix this but that isn't the biggest problem, it is that because of this, I don't know how to play! I'm not sure if this mod has special senarios, or if I should just load up a map. If it is senarios, I can't find them.

 

[Korias]

The mod currently has no scenarios. What you are looking is what you SHOULD be looking at. There isnt any realy difference in menu graphics, yet at least. The version I'm working on hasnt been released yet, and the one you have is made by Colin who doesnt work on this mod anymore. Just go ahead and start a game. If you have different leaders, civs, ect. then you should be fine.

 

[Korias]

Feel free to take a look at the attached word document for some ideas on what I wish to do. Please post your own ideas as well, I'm recording these as we go while I focus on fixing current issues.

 

[arkham4269]

It took three years for I am Legend's world to become relatively overgrown. That's how I imagine it, except doubled over in its effect. The 5-10 year range is quite true: But keep in mind this was a world wide outbreak, and billions were consumed in the fires of quarantine.

Well Discover magazine had a very erudite article about what would happen if all the humans keel over dead quickly. It did everything step by step. The problem with most shows is they have everything going to hell to quickly. It takes 25-50 to really get the amount of over-growth that you'd expect. In fact The History Channel had a piece saying it would take 5 years what the Ph.D. team that did the study for Discover predicted 15-30. Personally I'd go with the scientist over the history channel.

Also, I think the only way for zombies to work is the initial 'zombie vector' is an airborne virus. Some bio-weapon gone bad and that for the most part everyone becomes infected and those who don't are immune. So like in L4D the initial problem is for the non-infected to gather together and not get eaten. I've never liked the 'only get infected through being bitten' part of most stories (like WW Z) since there is just too many advantages a large human population has. Turning most people in Z's and only a few left makes it believable that most survivors are going to get eaten but here and there will be pockets of survivors that get the upper hand.

The crux of the humans problem is highlighted in Larry Niven's famous Lucifer's Hammer; once your settle it is reasonably safe and you can stay that way. However, every day loses critical supplies to decay. Every death loses critical knowledge. So you can stay safe and revert to a Mad Max sort of existence or you can take the risk of trying to expand and gain back what was lost while you can.

In WW Z, their is a chapter about the Saratoga Conference that also talks about the psychological aspect for the need to defeat the zombies.

Anyway, my point is, even after 5-10 years, stuff won't decay that badly and there will still be plenty of people who know what to do to get the ball rolling. It's funny, in some way this mod's turn time would be opposite of vanilla civ, start out with turns being a month or two and then later getting to be longer to represent when the civ is on it's feet and making things (big things) takes longer.

Oh, having turns in months would also allow seasons. Zombies don't like the cold.

 

[Korias]

Keep in mind that there would be quite some time for things to change, even with seven years. Although, a whole generation might be better for everything to be fully covered over, there's still the fact that, say, should the zombie virus have been non-airborne (waterborne, perhaps?) it still could have spread rapidly and the few who DID escape into shelters still very much victim to the virus.

Well, that varies from zombie to zombie. If their the Biohazard/RE zombies, then they would freeze. But if they're like WWZ zombies, they still have bodyheat, I believe.

As far as seasons go, that's one hellish coding connundrum for checking every tile, every turn, to make it so that the seasons are visible to the player. Not to mention the AI trouble that would occur from constantly changing land.

Changing the time of starting to 35 years AO would hopefully make things more plausible. But I'd still like to have a fair amount of remains of the world. But the population is a factor here- How many people made it into shelters, and How many of those shelteres werent breached? A population of 1 could be less than a hundred people- That's going to mean you wont have people to get the ball rolling quickly, as it takes time to gather materials and work the large tracts of land that span the continents.

 

[arkham4269]

Well, that varies from zombie to zombie. If their the Biohazard/RE zombies, then they would freeze. But if they're like WWZ zombies, they still have bodyheat, I believe.

WWZ zombies freeze in the winter only to reanimate when they thaw.

As far as seasons go, that's one hellish coding connundrum for checking every tile, every turn, to make it so that the seasons are visible to the player. Not to mention the AI trouble that would occur from constantly changing land.

How many people made it into shelters, and How many of those shelteres werent breached? A population of 1 could be less than a hundred people- That's going to mean you wont have people to get the ball rolling quickly, as it takes time to gather materials and work the large tracts of land that span the continents.

Well think of it this way, let's say that 1 out of 10 people are naturally immune to the initial zombie virus (obviously later in the game it will mutate) - that's still a lot of billion out of approximately 6,770,332,394 people on the planet on 4/1/09. The problem is 9 out of those 10 want to eat those remaining. So with attrition, how many are left? Still quite a lot, especially in areas where the population was a bit thin. It is a bit counter-intuitive but a low population are tends to be spread out so while there are fewer survivors, it would be easier for them to congregate in a stronghold. Cities on the other hand would be deathtraps by the sheer numbers of zombies. I mean in a town of 2,500, 250 people have a better chance of getting out than the 25,000 due in a large city of 250,000. Those stuck in places like NYC better hope they can get to the boats before they become zombie chow.

Personally I would think this mod would do well to have the code being integrated into FF of having barbarian civs morph into minor civs since I would think that there would actually be quite a few enclaves. The difference being most wouldn't have the people or the equipment to actually expand. So besides zombies, there would be little independent fiefdoms. Not 'barbarians' in the classic sense but more opportunities to either take over or culture bomb them.

 

[Korias]

The FF code for the Minor Civs could work... but still, That poses the issue of then having the barbarians NOT be the zombies. Then again, FfH has the Animals AND the Barbarians, Rhye's and Fall has multiple Independent Civs, and there are other things like that. But still, That's a long term goal. Lets get the otherthings set first- The Zombies, and the Civs themselves. We can write minor civs and leaders later, lets focus on the major ones and the major factors.

 

[arkham4269]

The FF code for the Minor Civs could work... but still, That poses the issue of then having the barbarians NOT be the zombies. Then again, FfH has the Animals AND the Barbarians, Rhye's and Fall has multiple Independent Civs, and there are other things like that. But still, That's a long term goal. Lets get the otherthings set first- The Zombies, and the Civs themselves. We can write minor civs and leaders later, lets focus on the major ones and the major factors.

My thinking is that this 'barbarian' enclaves are those who have managed to collect and survive but don't have a charismatic leader to give them a vision to go further than their safe boundaries. Again that is what sets the 'active' civs from the minor civs, their leadership.

 

[Korias]

I'm all for making a barbarian "Marauder" civ similar to the barbarians in Fury Road to fight with and against the zombies. Its a good idea.

But have you taken a look at the word document? Those three topics- Civs, Zombies, and Religions, are some of the first things I want to re-work. From there, I want to really dig deep into the mechanics and make things much more unique. But lets focus on the things already there, and improve those aspects first.

 

[Tokolosh]

Great to see this mod coming back online! Looking forward to seeing it. While I'm by no means a coder or graphic artist or anything, I'd love to lend whatever help I can to getting 'er goin'.

Cheers,

- Toko.