Bomber Range Petition

[Jon Shafer]

Originally posted by Trip
Hehe. AI ICBM targeting system: Find city on a list, blow it up.

Even we can do that in a couple seconds.

A lot easier than going over each tile in the game and deciding whether or not we should fire a nuke at it, right?

 

[TETurkhan]

Here are some stats on aircraft. Listed are the type of aircraft and the approximate range they should have on the various sized maps. The game limit of 8 is especially noticeable on the B52s.


Earth’s Circumference: 24,900 miles

• WW2 PLANE Range 830 miles
o Standard Map (100x100) 3.3 squares
o Large Map (130x130) 4.3 squares
o Huge Map (160x160) 5.3 squares
o Giga Map (250x250) 8.3 squares

• B52 Bomber Range 6300 miles
o Standard Map 29 squares
o Large Map 37 squares
o Huge Map 46 squares
o Giga Map 72 squares

• Helicopter Range 1255 miles
o standard Map 5 sqaures
o Large Map 7 squares
o Huge Map 8 squares
o Giga Map 13 squares

• Jet Fighter Range 2000 miles
o Standard Map 8 squares
o Large Map 10 squares
o Huge Map 13 squares
o Giga Map 20 squares

• Stealth Fighter 2000 miles (NEWLY ADJUSTED-APROX.)
o Standard Map 8 squares
o Large Map 10 squares
o Huge Map 13 squares
o Giga Map 20 squares

• Stealth Bomber 3800 miles
o Standard Map 15.26 squares
o Large Map 19.84 squares
o Huge Map 24.42 squares
o Giga Map 38.15 squares

 

[Mad Bomber]

Your stats on the Stealth Fighter are inaccurate, while not officially listed the Stealth fighter has an operational range of over 2000 miles, & can be augmented with fast Conformal fuel packs & Mid-air refuling. Here is are some additional stats for the F-117A Nighthawk:
__________________________
Primary Function Fighter/attack
Contractor Lockheed Aeronautical Systems Co.
Power Plant Two General Electric F404 engines
Length 65 feet, 11 inches (20.3 meters)
Height 12 feet, 5 inches (3.8 meters)
Weight 52,500 pounds (23,625 kilograms)
Wingspan 43 feet, 4 inches (13.3 meters)
Speed High subsonic
Range Unlimited with air refueling
Armament Internal weapons carriage
Two each of:

2 MK84 2000-pound
2 GBU-10 Paveway II
2 GBU-12 Paveway II
2 GBU-27 Paveway III
2 BLU 109
2 WCMD
2 Mark 61

Unit Cost $FY98
[Total Program] $122 million
Crew One
Date Deployed 1982
Inventory Active force, 54; ANG, 0; Reserve, 0
PMAI
Primary Mission Aircraft Inventory

Only combat-coded aircraft and not development/ test, attrition reserve, depot maintenance, or training aircraft. 36 aircraft
_______________________________
Also in WWII the B-17, & B-24 had an operational range of 2000 miles, so even some WWII bombers should have a range of 20 on a huge map. Of course, ranges used also ignore the use of mid-air refueling, external fuel tanks....

 

[Tassadar]

Originally posted by Tassadar
Do you think it is possible that.

A.i. use icbm only on ennemy city, so pathfinding for a.i is easier because it doesnt calculate all possible tile, only city tile.

So it would mean infinite bombardement range is applied only on city in a.i. calculation.

Hey guy , what do you think about that, did my post got burried whitin those statistic ?

 

[Zachriel]

Originally posted by Mad Bomber
Your stats on the Stealth Fighter are inaccurate . . .

The effective fighting range of fighters is less than the theoretical. They need fuel once they reach their patrol areas, and fuel to conduct operations.

 

[Crazy Jerome]

Tassadar, it is possible. I don't ever recall getting an ICBM anywhere but a city, but I've only had multiple civs with nukes a handful of times.

Rest, On the exponential versus geometric--it's not as if the two formulas listed are the only ones possible. Think for a second on the different things that a human considers when deciding which square to bomb (bomber radius) and whether or not forgo that bombing to rebase the bomber for next turn ("bomber pathfinding", if you will). It is not really pathfinding the way we mean with units. But it is a LOT more calculations than checking every square from this particular city. Moreoever, I suspect that the evaluation of each square is several calculations each. Even if it were only 2 calculations, the 16,000 calc for 20 squares would go to 16,800 for 21 squares. And we are discussing this as if the 16,000 were no big deal, instead of the max they felt they could live with (whatever it is for range of 8). And that base 400 increase has to be considered for EVERY town that the AI considers a valid rebase candidate (however many that is).

Now of course the AI doesn't consider everything a human does. But somewhere there is a range number that works well enough, and a +1 range to it that just isn't acceptable anymore. It may very well be that better AI programming could increase this number considerably without decreasing performance. But now we are talking about a much more involved change than simply adding an increased range to the editor.

Note, I'd be as happy as anyone else to see the option. It would make the game more simple, if nothing else. I just think that people ought to know what they are asking for.

 

[TETurkhan]

Those were Stats I just grabbed from the net, I didn’t post them to show my infinite knowledge of aircraft lol: ) but to merely point out the huge discrepancy.

In the mod that I am working on, I had originally wanted to raise unit movement rates to compensate for the Giga Map’s size, but now I am not so sure. The 8 limit range for aircraft is bad enough on larger maps, but it is made worse if I increase the movement of all other units. Shouldn’t aircraft in a single turn cover 5 times the amount of distance as the fastest land or sea unit? Need an opinion here.


• One last question: How does Speed & Range of aircraft work in the game?

Speed: Affects the rate of movement per turn. So then how come a fighter doesn’t move more spaces than a bomber, it is the faster unit?

Range: I think it should work this way - example - a jet fighter can move 45 spaces, it would need to fly over a city or airfield to refuel every 15 spaces. The bomber however should move fewer spaces per turn, let’s say 15 spaces but shouldn’t have to refuel for 45 straight spaces – meaning it could go on without having to refuel in a city or airfield for 3 turns.

Does this make sense to anyone?

 

[Mad Bomber]

Teturkhan:

I did get the general meaning of your post, but I must point out that there is a difference between Fighter, Attack aircraft & Bombers as far as range is concerned. In each tech area the Bomber, in general has the longest ranges while the fighters have the least range. I simply included info on the F-117 because the range given was not close to reality.

Forget about the idea of incorporating "speed" of aircraft into the game as they are taken into accout with the A/D values. Also since an aircraft can be rebased to any city in the world it is not needed.

I still see a need of an improved bomber (either strategic or jet)
To improve targeting for AI it would use the normal bombardment ranges with bombers, but would use the city targeting it uses when droping a nuke bomb (would target like an ICBM)

Zachriel:

While your statement of fighters is correct, I would like to point out that the F-117A is listed as a fighter, but this is a PR ploy by the Airforce. While capable of Air to Air combat, it is NOT it's primary function. The F-117 was designed as an attack aircraft, not as a fighter. A F-117 would not, in general, be assigned to a patrol or intercept mission. Also, the 650 mile range Teturkhan sited for the F-117 is not in the ballpark.

 

[Kilroy]

By the way people, you can't give aircraft infinite range. Many have tried it including myself and it's not as easy as you may think. There is a thread about it where we documented the different ways we tried to get it to work and the results. Everyone failed. The thread is around three months old if you're interested in searching for it.

 

[elemming]

So you can set to infinite range but the AI won't use them beyond 8.
If you set a modern scenario then the player has to be American.

That's if I am reading this thread correctly.
Is it true with the first post settings, stealth bombers will also not bombard cities? What if you turn "air mission: bombing" back on?

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showt...ighlight=infinite+AND+range+AND+stealth

 

[sealman]

By the looks of the results in the poll, I do not need to read the other pages. Please Firaxis, give us the option for increased range on planes...

 

[Mad Bomber]

I realize that this would take some work from the firaxians but my idea with the Strategic Bomber would be to use it in a dual mode.

When the SB is activated and you select a bombard option a pop-up menue would come up & ask if you want to use it in a conventional attack or a nuclear attack. If you choose conventional it would use the conventional range limit of bombers (currently at 8), If you choose Nuclear it would function as an ICBM except that it would be subject to fighter & SAM interception, and of course would be re-usable. Of course a unit like this should be VERY expensive (600-800 shields), or even need a SW to build (NORAD)?