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Booga games diar..rhea

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Hall of Fame Discussion' started by boogaboo, Sep 25, 2008.

  1. iggymnrr

    iggymnrr Chieftain

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    Looks like you find ways to improve. BC wins on a settler duel look possible. But I'm thinking of doing it on a tiny map. Testing shows promise ...
     
  2. boogaboo

    boogaboo Josef Popper 4ever

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    I can cut many more turns, I've just started getting into civ4 a month ago after many years.
    Why don't you start a thread about your games? You could spell out your strategy and goals.

    Edit : You didn't submit your games, so I can't know if you've done them or trolling me..
    Serious credibility issue here, even if you did them :rolleyes::nono:
    You're a good player no doubt, but not submitting is.. lame IMO.

    After reading some past posts, I understand you're...nihilistic since some tragic event :(
    I can understand that to an extent (I love Rick and Morty, I have anxiety issues and OCD), but -

    While HoF entries or life itself may seem meaningless to you, it isn't to most civfanatics users, including me.
    The games may well be meaningless.
    Life, family, achievements. All may be meaningless.
    I also think they are probably meaningless, but I don't know.

    But they MAY have some value to OTHERS, and they need not agree with your world view.
    Your favorite book or movie was also published by someone who could as well burn it.
    Kafka wanted his books burnt I think.

    You can do this (playing and telling, but not submitting), but you can't expect others to value your games or this action and trust your word on it.

    Did you look and possibly enjoy what I wrote about my game?
    Why can't others with your games?
    I'm for sharing all, and it IS your choice, but it's a loss to all in my view.
     
    Last edited: Jul 16, 2019
  3. Anysense

    Anysense Chieftain

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    I think you are taking it too seriously. After all, it's only a game, even if some of us do put a hell of a lot of effort into it.
     
  4. boogaboo

    boogaboo Josef Popper 4ever

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    I think I seriously tried to reason with Iggy about meaning in life and subjectivity.
    Perhaps he'll take something from it, perhaps not.
    Perhaps I shouldn't have written anything.
    I'm a bit nihilistic sometimes too..

    About the game - I'm not taking it seriously. Just disappointed.
    Taking it as a strange occurrence.

    I know he's an excellent player, and it is his choice not to be credited on games he did or didn't do.
    I think it is his choice, but the immediate consequence is that I cannot know if he did these games or just trolling.
    Since I can't know this, my only option is to not take his word on his games seriously.
    And that's a poor result for everyone. Me, him, the community.
    I'll live with that.
    No hard feelings.

    Edit : I also want to note that yes, I did have my expectations -
    I was hoping for a competition, and a chance to learn from game logs and save files.
    I enjoy learning stuff :)
     
    Last edited: Jul 16, 2019
  5. iggymnrr

    iggymnrr Chieftain

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    Thanks. I recently got Buffy to finally work without that error message about games not being HoF eligible.

    One of my last games was the 960 AD win with Asoka on a standard, normal speed map. It’s still there on the HoF table. Almost all techs in the ADs were 1 turn. No need for corps at that clip. State property. Spaceship was almost all chopped. And I founded religions at the start. (They don’t pop from huts while exploring. So no annoying getting them from huts 1 turn from completion.)

    No need to tech alphabet when AIs will be gone before getting there.
     
  6. boogaboo

    boogaboo Josef Popper 4ever

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    I once also did a 990AD space race. On warlord/standard.
    So that's not something I would look into.
     
  7. iggymnrr

    iggymnrr Chieftain

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    Saw that. That's a good time. I'm looking at the tiny map with 2 or 3 opponents but not 4. It's usually best to go with the minimum. 3 might be okay. But AI starting locations are not so predictable as with 2. The difference between the two may be starting with a warrior or a worker build. One productive start and lucky AI spot netted 2 captured cities by turn 12 on a warrior build first. Still it may be better to go with the more predictable setup.
     
  8. iggymnrr

    iggymnrr Chieftain

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    Got Buffy working fine and Map Finder. Did a tiny settler map 14 turns shy of HoF slot. Won't submit. 25 cities and 100 workers. First Buffy game in years. Had to gift 3 cities to stay under dom limit. That was a tiny map. 75 workers might have worked.
     
  9. boogaboo

    boogaboo Josef Popper 4ever

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    I'm not playing on tiny, so why write it on this thread?
    It looks like you should start a thread for your own games.
     
  10. iggymnrr

    iggymnrr Chieftain

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  11. boogaboo

    boogaboo Josef Popper 4ever

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    Well, I'm still alive.
    Did many tests on starting strategies and early expansion.
    Now that I know what I'm doing (much better), I'm looking for a good start.
    I've also experienced going for Communism instead of Corporations for the first time in years.
    Communism requires more irrigation and MANY rivers. Corporations require.. resources.
    The maps chosen for each should fit the bill.
    Playing Terra with Communism was dumb ;)

    That's the short version of what I've experienced.
    I'll try most maps with Pacal to compare the strategies.

    When I know which strategy/map is best, I'll start testing 2-3 other leaders that may do better :)
    I now have many maps to check! Off I go!
     
  12. Anysense

    Anysense Chieftain

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    Why? Terra offers the largest number of tiles to build workshops, what can be better for state property?
     
  13. boogaboo

    boogaboo Josef Popper 4ever

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    Terra has a lot of sea tiles, so it does not necessarily has the largest number of workshops.
    Moreover, workshops do not produce ANY commerce, and if you want to progress in science fast under state property, then watermills are the key and not workshops.
    For that, you need many rivers. It is worth it.
    I'm betting on Great plains (although small) or rain forest to fit a state property game.
     
  14. Anysense

    Anysense Chieftain

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    Well, it has the largest number of land tiles too, and it has tonnes of forests even with temperate climate. And a chance for free Astronomy does not hurt either.

    Great Plains is an interesting map script, but 1.5 times less land tiles than Terra and most of it is forestless and thus developed rather slowly. Possibility to get 5-6 food resources in BFC, I think, is the most interesting thing that GP has to offer. Not sure how that can fit into Space game though, but for Conquest on small map sizes such production is very usefull. Still, forests are better.
     
  15. boogaboo

    boogaboo Josef Popper 4ever

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    I didn't test my theories yet (I once did great plains, but it is too far back).
    Is there a way to directly see the map scripts anywhere?? Nvm, first time I've looked into py files just now.. perhaps terra is too small :(
    I'll just test them sometime :)
     
  16. Anysense

    Anysense Chieftain

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    You could try code diving, of course, but there is a simple way to get all the information you need. Use future start, revealing the whole map, and set the test range in map finder to 999 tiles. It will count land tiles, forests, floodplains, resources, the riverside, all types of terrain present on the map. You can quickly gather enough data to get the idea of what you can expect from that map script and how certain values fluctuate.
     
    boogaboo likes this.
  17. boogaboo

    boogaboo Josef Popper 4ever

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    Thanks, Anysense, I may do this sometime.
    Or I'll search for anyone who already did it and published advanced metrics.. ;)

    I'm still dealing with anxiety/stress, so I'm not going to dive into code just yet.. I enjoy playing too much :)
    I'm still postulating possible game scenarios and trying to get my methods straight. I'm sure there's always something to improve.
    It is the variety of options that makes this game so good!

    A thought I've been having - you can generally go for state property or corporations, but did anyone successfully combine them?
    The route should be :
    1. State property.
    2. Fast expansion (with nearly no cost), build banks+wall st.
    3. Establishing mining/sushi corporation and sending executives,
    4. Free market.

    It's a complex mission and I'm not sure it's worth it on Space, but I'm sharing!
     
  18. Dhoomstriker

    Dhoomstriker Girlie Builder

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    Boogaboo, you are in luck! Check out Sirian's Map Info Reference.

    The online version of the page (http://www.civfanatics.com/civ4/reference/map_scripts_guide.php) no longer appears to work. HOWEVER, the .zip file is still available!

    It's actually a really cool and useful reference, since Sirian is the person who developed most of those map scripts!

    Be certain to check out the "Sirian's Map Info Reference.txt" file inside of that .zip file for some incredibly-helpful summaries of the various map types. Note that the list of map types does not correspond exactly with the set of map types that are allowed for the HOF, so be sure to check out the HOF Rules page for a definitive answer on which map types can be played.

    Okay, so I did a cross-reference between the types of maps that are allowed by HOF play and the maps that are listed in that reference. The reference doesn't include some of the newer map types, so the information is incomplete in that regard. Perhaps someone has another reference that has info about the other map types. As a quick summary, here is a list of map types allowed by HOF play and the info from Sirian's .txt file about map sizes when playing on a Standard sized map. The entries that don't have a number are map types that we don't have info about in his reference.
    Archipelago 84 * 52
    Continents 84 * 52
    Fractal
    Great Plains 44 * 32
    Highlands 64 * 40
    Ice Age 84 * 36
    Inland Sea 52 * 32
    Lakes 52 * 32
    Oasis 52 * 32
    Pangaea 64 * 40
    Shuffle
    Terra 104 * 64
    Big & Small
    Boreal
    Global Highlands
    Hemispheres
    Medium and Small
    Rainforest


    I remember a recent discussion on how it was unfortunate that "Balanced Resources" is not a valid option for HOF games. Looking at the sample-balanced.gif file inside of that .zip file seems to indicate that this setting would mean that near to your starting location, you would be guaranteed to get each of:
    Copper, Iron, Horses, Coal, Oil, Uranium, and Aluminum

    Now that I understand what that map setting does, I think that people made the right call in excluding that map setting from HOF games. My reasoning is due to the variance that is offered in each game that we play due to the unbalanced distribution of Resources. It's one of many factors that keep the game fresh, and the option being banned in HOF means that we're all compelled to play with maps that vary quite a bit, meaning that we keep coming back to play.


    It's a good thought and it can certainly work well!

    Some challenges are:
    a) Getting enough Worker turns, since Workshops, and particularly Watermills, require a lot of Worker turns.
    b) You can't found a Corp or build Corporate Executives while running State Property. I'm not exactly sure of the mechanics around whether you can SPREAD a Corporate Executive while in State Property--some quick World-Builder testing might be in order here.
    c) If you maximize Food efficiency by building a ton of Workshops, your Cities may need to temporarily build some Farms overtop of Workshops when you switch out of State Property before they get a Food Corp, or else you may want to keep some Farms and not focus on completely stagnating your Cities while in State Property since you know that you'll have a time period ahead of you where your Workshops and Watermills won't be providing that extra Food from State Property.
    d) Communism requires Liberalism. You thus can't use Liberalism on Medicine (for Sid's Sushi) or on Railroad (for Mining Inc), since the goal is to unlock State Property via Communism early. Thus, you're almost certainly going to be using Liberalism on Communism itself.
    e) You obsolete Monasteries early on. If you're running a Religious Wonder economy, then the impact can be big.
    f) You'll be obsoleting The Great Library, The Parthenon, and The Temple of Artemis relatively early on. If you're relying on The Parthenon to get a Great Engineer for a Corporation, you could be in trouble. So, you'll probably need to target getting a Great Engineer with one of your earlier Great People and have the discipline to save that Great Engineer for a long time.

    Possible solutions are:
    For a), it can help if you can find a reliable way to steal a lot of Workers, such as disciplining yourself not to promote every Axeman/Swordsman/Maceman up the City Raider line and instead promoting a couple up the Woodsman line.

    It's also worth trying to get The Hagia Sophia (perhaps via conquering it) to spead up your Workers' efficiency. I've even played around with running Serfdom when going for a State-Property economy, although you'll eventually want either Slavery to make use of the extra whipping production or Caste System for the extra Hammers from Workshops.

    For b), you'll have to decide when the ideal time will be to switch out of State Property, probably after you've teched enough to found your first Corp, but maybe not even until after you're able to found both Corps at once, or perhaps just before you're able to found the first Corp so that you can get started spreading the first one while teching the last little bit to enable the second Corp. Free Market may not be the immediate choice and you might situationally decide to go into Mercantilism until your first Corp starts to get spread around a bit, depending upon whether you have Anarchy-free Civic-switching (being in a Golden Age or being Spiritual). You could in theory tech up to Radio and build The Christo Redentor, so that you can swap back and forth between Civics quite regularly and without Anarchy if you haven't saved your Great People for Golden Ages and if you aren't Spiritual.


    I do like your idea of using State-Property-enhanced Workshops to build Wallstreet. Normally, I struggle in completing Wallstreet and I end up waiting until I get Mining Inc Hammers to complete it, which means that I run my economy into the ground for a short period of time. Your suggested approach sounds like it would be a lot more efficient in this regard.
     
    Last edited: Aug 13, 2019 at 11:28 PM
  19. boogaboo

    boogaboo Josef Popper 4ever

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    Hi DoomStriker,

    Thanks for your thoughts :)
    These are not advanced metrics - I meant how many rivers on average, how many gems on average etc..
    I have the gifs in a single file for examples of maps and have the sizes (hopefully correct) :

    104 x 64
    Terra

    84 x 52
    Archipelago
    Balanced
    Continents
    Custom Continents
    Islands

    84 x 36
    Ice Age

    64 x 64
    Tilted Axis

    64 x 40
    Highlands
    Hub
    Pangaea
    Ring
    Wheel

    65 x 32
    Maze

    52 x 32
    Inland Sea
    Lakes
    Mirror
    Oasis

    44 x 32
    Great Plains


    About the "Corpo-property" mix, the main issue would be
    I'll have to test it when the time comes, but I have Corp to test on Terra and highlands, then State property to test on Terra (again) and Great plains and Rainforest...
     
  20. iggymnrr

    iggymnrr Chieftain

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    Presumably your working settler difficulty. It seems like I did a few games with state property and then something else. IIRC liberalism was a ~2-3 turn tech and communism was ~4 turns. It doesn't seem like a big deal to switch to corps except ... Mining Inc. is bread and butter so that should precede corporations. If state property is the bread and butter approach ... In other words, a food corporation after state property. Doesn't state property basically add food not hammers to tiles? Switching out implies a heavy loss of food.

    Unfortunately the something else I tried after state property was probably environmentalism. I also remember doing environmentalism with a food corp. Memory fails if I used all three in one game. I do remember having a city once with almost 20 windmills. Cereal Mills must have been the "food tile."

    Yeah. State property with levees and watermills. Rocks!
     

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