Bored and problems playing FFH. So i decided to makeup a scenario/modmod

Moon Hunter

FfH2 addict
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May 26, 2006
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152
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Cevedes, Amurite Empire, Erebus...
Hello all.

I know that the phase of scenarios for FFH is set to the Ice phase, but since I have some technical difficulties with my comp, which render playing quite annoying, I’ve been thinking about making a scenario myself, although with the non-existent programming skills that I have, it’s gonna be interesting.

It’s your mistake anyway Kael, coz of those videos you made.

I already have some ideas on how it should look, and what should be in it, but all is just in the preparation phase right now, and I want to find out, what could be done with the current state of the mod, and what would need to be implemented. Also this is my very first attempt at a creative writing, so please everyone, be gentle, but also I would like to get any feedback I can get. If I suck terribly or if it was any good. Also if something manages to get out of FFH canon, let me know. Also note that all this is just a preparatory draft, I can’t promise you anything as of now. Mostly brainstorming anyway.

Ladies and gentlemen, game developers and modmakers, modmodmakers and lurkers, FFH fans of all ages.
I give you the 5th age of the Erebus. The Age of Despair.

Backstory:
30 years have passed. Some see that time as eternity. Others fear what will follow. The way life is now, makes the troubles and constant wars of the Age of Rebirth look feeble and childish. 30 years ago, the wicked Sheaim almost faced extinction. But they had managed to finish their masterplan. 30 years ago, they called forth the infernal forces of hell. Into creation. At first they were underestimated. The forces of hell were wrongfully considered just another Sheaim attempt to twist the forces of magic and materialize creatures unimaginable. That was a mistake. The first mistake of many that were to come. But the last one that we remember, the oldest one that we shall never forget. The mistake that cost us the most. Our future.

Some said the stories of survivors of the devilish scourge were frightful babblings of cowards. Others said the Overlords played with them and spared their lives at the cost of their sanity. Maybe they were both right, who knows.

One after another, the proud nations of Erebus fell. Arrogance, pity, disconcern, all played in favour of the Infernals. It took them only 5 years to conquer their 1st continent. Countless demons swarming from infernal cities. Strange beasts appeared near the gates of the remaining Sheaim settlements. Beasts magical, burning, with horns and teeth everywhere. Another 5 years later they conquered everything. The good guys and the bad guys. The weak and the powerful. The rich and the poor. They didn’t care. The only thing they cared about was the screaming, the pain, the flames. And of course the tormented souls to fuel their blasted crusade to purify creation of all life.

Some say it was our arrogance. That we had become too proud in our achievements. The late Age of Rebirth was a glorious age full of wonders and magic and technology breaktroughs. It was a testimony to the gods that we were starting to become like them, we were going to reach them, become equal. It was a marvel whose shining glory could only be compared to the depth of the pitch black darkness that was about to come.

As the time passed, it started to get obvious that the governments were not going to handle the coming crisis. Some nations had hoped for change of luck by changing the rulers. Other decided to test their luck by keeping the old ones. Some tried to flee. Or hide. In the seas. Under the mountain peaks. In the forests and the jungles. Using magic means. All pitiful attempts, as they soon learned. The demonic forces twisted the sky blue waters of Erebus’s oceans, that the Lanun so loved, into an unholy mass, crimson like blood, and black like darkness made solid. Vessels could no longer sail safely, for the ships of those who were devoured by it, soon returned. But the crew was always different. The Luchuirp and the Khazad joined forces and built underground fortresses. And soon discovered the beauty of the earthquake. From the wrong side, however. Because of the tainted earth, their resources soon withered and dried out and the elemental forces of earth, which unbeknownst to them had become tainted as well, turned against their summoners. The forests and the elves. They couldn’t stop waging war against each other even as they faced extinction. The ancient forests near Evermore and Thariss remembered the elves as a single nation. “They withstood the ice, they withstood fires, they shall protect their children”. But the fire that was about to come was no ordinary fire, for hell had spit these flames out itself. And from those fires, the sky became dark, and day had become as night. And so the sun god lost contact with his faithful Malakim. The Amurites, arcanists till the bitter end, just like the Sidar, sought the cure for the problem in magic and simply hid their cities. The ignorants. Never underestimate a demons thirst for fresh souls and the hellhounds that follow him. The Calabim ended up dry when their “food supplies” were recruited into Hyborem’s legions. When they displayed concern, they found themselves back in the ages past, when they had to scavange for any survivors for any drop of blood they could find. The Bannor had the most experience with fighting demons. However, the demons also had the most experience with fighting the Bannor. The day they built the Mercurian gate was supposed to be the turning point of the war. A shining light that will drive the Infernals where they belong. But it was too late. For every angel that arrived, legions of demons crawled from the pits and portals in their blasted lands. As for Basium himself, lets just say, he went back to Arawn. For good. He took a whole army down, before Hyborem himself had to stand up to him, but at that point, it was more of a theatre play than a real fight. I dare not imagine what Hyborem did with the corpse of his nemesis laying lifeless like a sac under his feet.

As Hyborem’s campaign was successful, some other unimaginable forces were so satisfied with him that they granted him additional powers and he grows in power each passing year. 10 years ago, some surviving outcasts said they heard rumours, that he is summoning more of his demonic kind. Not that they would be necessary, now that Erebus has definitely become a place you don’t want to spend you life in. No idea if it was true, no idea if it was necessary. No idea if the ritual has been finished successfully. No idea if its still not in preparation phase…

With her last breath, the great prophet Cailleach Beara, told Os-Gabella’s torture mistresses the following words. With the last spark of hope, conscience and hopefully clear mind:

„In my thoughts I have seen rings of smoke through the trees
And the voices of those who stand looking
And a new day will dawn for those who stand long
And the forest will echo with laughter“

(Courtesy of Led Zeppelin)

Some say, that there is still hope. Maybe she had a vision that we shall eventually be victorious and the spreading of hell will stop. Maybe we will even press them back to the bottomless pit from which they came from. Or maybe she was just disillusionate and couldn’t stand that much pain any longer. What gives a brink of hope to us is the fact, that all those who participated in the torture were punished with death at Os-Gabellas personal order. And a very slow death to be more precise.

No-one knows anything nowadays. Survivors try hard to find food to salvage for their bodies, not to find food for their hope. Contact beyond the handful of fortresses is practically non existent. No-one dares to enter the burning lands nor the haunted forests. No-one even knows if any of the fortresses still stand.
 
Gameplay:
This will probably end up(and I surely hope to finish it:)) quite differentiated form FFH, mainly for the scenario, if successful and with sufficient help, it might become a modmod itself.

Game is strongly focused on survival. Armageddon counter starts at 100 and its up to you to bring it down.
Due to the fact that I would like to have the Infernals start with a huge empire and have many barbarian demons rampaging the lands, I would like to consider following mechanic:
Plenty of demons roaming the lands, from which you don’t get exp. The fact that you survived a wave of demons doesn’t have to mean you developed an effective mechanic against them.
The exp inflation in FFH would be toooooooo much of an advantage in such a setting. I also want to avoid having one unit capture all the attackers and so you end up with 1 uber unit, specialized in everything and a bunch of veteran noob warriors.

Q1: Is it possible to have barbarian demons spawn, that are far below the tech line? By adjusting the weight the AI gives to them. (Imagine barbarians spawning warriors when they can do rangers) Probably will use the hellfire tile mechanic to spawn a certain unit type otherwise.
Q2: Is it possible to set up AI permanently allied with barbarian? (I know Kael once had barbarians build Mercurian gate/ +10 on coolness factor, even if it was just a bug)
Q3: Would it be possible to have a unit gain exp by defeating at least 2 units in the same turn? even if weak ones? (Imagine giving a unit Valor promotion after victory, that lasts one or two turns. If you had gotten 0exp from killing a simple unit, you will get +1 exp from killing the next one. No pain, no gain.


As for the combat itself, I imagine the following mechanic. Give fortifications minimal defence bonuses (10% each to palisade, stone wall, castle - max). Instead increase the max value of unit fortify order. 10% each turn for a max of 50-70% plus possibility of defensive promotion to double that value. You know your surroundings, you can set up traps for any attackers. The demons wouldn’t receive defence bonuses in their cities, but rather higher defence for using the hell terrain they are on.

Q4: Is it possible to have a tech give promotion to all existing and future units? Not possibility of promotion, but directly the promotion.

I imagine the unit to have higher defensive strength than offensive strength, and that offensive strength could be increased by researching technologies like Doctrine: demon fighting (SMAC anyone?) granting +1 attack strength.
If that wouldn’t be possible, I would like to elaborate more on the weapon promotions, but these would probably only increase attack strength, at least most of them. Basically they would leverage the units offensive and defensive strength. Copper weapons +1/0, iron weapons +2/0, silver weapons +3/+1, mithril weapons +4/+1, adamantium weapons +5/+2. And I would love to get the way weapons were handled back. Meaning you would need a forge to give the boost to units. This would probably make even more quests, kind of like finding a new metal to forge into weapons, or a sacred forge that can only grant you adamantium in the tileset where it is. You decide if you want your units with mithril and ready to battle, or make a pilgrimage to give them a slight boost.
Combat I-V as we know them now would probably be reduced to Combat I-III of 20% strength, after that you would need to specialize against the specific demon types. When defending a city, you would need to diversify your defensive forces, and not just leave one super powerful unit behind to kill everything. Leave one that has specialised itself against mounted units, and one against melee units, just in case. And also you’d better leave an archer behind so that he can soften the attackers. Meaning it would probably require the same mechanic that was used in Age of Ice scenario on BTS.

Q5: Would it be possible to assign the Armageddon counter value to the barbarian player? I don’t want the player to stop Armageddon by simply defeating the Infernal lord, while the world is still a burning ball of fire.

If you have played some of the scenarios shipped with original Civ4, you might remember Genghis Khan Scenario (might be another) where you had units built by having your mobile camp stand on a terrain for a certain time, instead of building cities. I would like following a mechanic (might be a quest). You start with a few units and a mobile camp kind of like a Survivors unit. Only after you have defeated a nearby bunch of demons, do you find the place that has great potential for defensive structures/library of ancient wisdom/old city ruins where you are allowed to have your Survivors unit settle into a city. Overall city construction would probably go similarly to using the restore city spell on unpillagable city ruins tile features strategically set upon the world. You scavenge what you get. NOT build vast empires upon ashes.

Q6: Would the above written be possible?

Improving the city tileset would be different from FFH as well. I would imagine cheaper workers sacrifice themselves for tile improvement. If you played Call to Power series and remember the system of public works, you know what I’m talking about. Roads would be unavailable, or only buildable with a late game tech. That means that all features would require the same mechanic that gives you sea resources without connecting to route network. The reason is
a) I don’t want the players to focus on building an advanced empire while their neighbour is a demon lord bent on destruction of what’s left. Plus I’m a buildaholic and try hard to get rid of that.
b) building a road system in a burning world is pointless
c) I don’t like having mercenaries and mounted units with commando promotion be able to storm the core city of the enemy.

Travel between cities could be managed by allowing obsidian gates much earlier (repair ruins, etc. imagine some quest to work if you want)
I would like to limit the movement of all units in general. Recon line might get a max of 2+1, just like Mounted, but Hell terrain might require 2 movement points instead, to compensate. Or even make the mobility promotion unavailable. Also any hell terrain should do damage to all units on the tiles, regardless of resources and cultural borders. This would require units to be experienced to travel out to the unknown, or travel with medics. Later you could get certain promotions (courage) that would neutralize such damage from tile sets.

Q7: Any feedback on that? Is that with the workers doable? Maybe with a spell for the unit?

I would like to incorporate seZ’s ancient forest graphic and create a hell version of Ancient forest, named Haunted forest, which would hinder unit vision, and spawn barbarian treants/bloodhawks/wights/whatever… Bloodhawks would use the aerial interception combat mechanics from BTS.

Q8: Is it possible to have a beast lair work for airborne units? (Cant remember how airfields work in vanilla…) Possibly have a tile feature /permanent or pillagable generate negative culture?

Battle system would probably be considerably realtered. T1-3 units only. No national units limit for T3 units. T4 units probably only available as upgraded heroes or from quests.
The tech race would probably be even slower than in regular FFH, I love the epic and marathon gameplay options. You focus on survival, not on magic and technology breakthrough. Instead, some technologies would be capturable from the infernals (we now have an effective countertactics agains a demon subspecies) or salvagable for ruins (now THIS might come in handy) or from quests.

Q9: Is it possible to make researching a technology lock out researching another technology?
Possibly for even more specialization.


I would like to have a mana node be unpillagable, but only give its resource if on right terrain. E.g. Once you purify a land, the forces that corrupt the node are gone and you can use the node’s power.

Q10: Possible? You (who have more experience) decide.

If all of this were to be done, I would probably make some new leaders, with either 3 traits, or just one. Was it Maniac or Magister who beefed Basium and Hyborem with 7 traits? Would definitely love to add that. As the backstory says, I would like to beef up Hyborem as well, make him more a pain in the ass. He was rewarded, so I’d want to make his immortal promotion permanent. Also from the rituals to be completed, Id like to summon upto 5 more nigh-undefeatable demon heroes. The 4 raiders and Avatar of wrath would probably also start at the beginning, although they would be either tuned down on their speed, or set to islands, separate continents, as not to bother in the early phases of the scenario. Or have certain avatar units to counter them based on quests. E.g. you manage to wake up a slumbering Mithril golem the Khazad left in their ruins. This will help you get rid of them. Maybe have the mithril golem be so damaged in the combat that he would be rendered unrepairable, or only good as a softener for another of the Horsemen, if you’re lucky.

Also moving some spells would be necessary. E.g. I imagine the sanctify spell a T2 spell for only the plot where you are and a T3 spell for 3x3 plot in a game where turning hell land nodmal is the aim of the game.

Q11: Is it possible to add a certain coeficient to aramgeddon counter based on the number of tiles having hell promotion? Meaning if you manage to sanctify whole islands and continents to regular state, then hell is actually loosing, right?

Q12: In current mod, barbarian heroes benefit from all mana node types, regardless of ownership.. See Horsemen. Would it be possible to reverse this? Meaning the more Life, Nature, Spirit, Law nodes, whatever are in the world, regardless of ownership, the weaker the Horsemen/demons get?

I would like to implement heroes as early units, not directly from start, but gainable soon. Imagine a holy book of rituals that will allow you to summon those that help in times of need. At beginning they would mainly help defending your city, while you go to do quests with your band of adventurers/scavangers look for more survivors. They wouldn’t be undefeatable, but would be hard to defeat by the enemy. If they die, you can bring them back like you do now, by sacrificing a life node. However you would have to decide if you want back a hero, or keep the life node to weaken the demons.

Q13: Since the demons would have their heroes too, I was thinking if it would be possible to tie down 2 units lives. Imagine Infernal twins, where you’d need to kill both in the same turn, else the living one brings the dead one back from hell. Possibly include Immortal promotion on both.

Another great question would be civilisation mechanic. I would like to focus more on the survivors and their mixed races. “Civilisations” would rather be groups of survivors with differentiating racial majority. E.g. Elven survivors would have 50% chance to have units built have elven promotion and 10% each of none(maybe make an empty promotion - human, just to show that the unit has a race), dwarven, vampire, half-angel, half demon. The Dwarven survivors would have 50% of dwarven units and the other 50% would again be divided. Reason for vampire is that I would consider them being at the bottom of the food chain once again, due to recruitment of “food” by hell. So they start again like in the civilopedia, they help as hunter for drops of blood. They could make good recon units, and it would be on the player to decide if they want to starve them to death or give them a chance to redeem themselves and help the survivors.
Half-angel and Half-demon would resemble the fact how much the world has been tainted by the divine and hell forces. Half demons would probably be able to gain the stigmata promotion, and would be more useful at the beginning, while half-angels would have a “tranquility” promotion, basicly an anti stigmata, you would get bonus, the lower the armageddon counter would be. This would help in late game as double band mechanic.

Q14: Is it possible to set a building (palace) have 100% chance to give ONE of a number of promotions? Have all units start with racial promotion, but avoid having a vampire/elven/halfangel hybrid.

Q15: Is it possible to have the max number of national units be variable and not a constant? Imagine having a cap on vampire units equal to number of cities. Flavourwise to avoid falling into the depth of the vampire fangs as the Calabim did before, but still be able to use their powers.

Q16: Would it be possible to make a unit turn barbarian and then back to same AI? I imagine the half-demons to be able to go berserk, but they could turn back to sanity later. Imagine you have a campaign going, and 2 of your attack units get crazed. You can decide to kill them for exp, and continue the fight, or retreat, till they get their anger back under control. Or use charm on them so that they cant attack you, use a druid to entangle them and then when back to normal continue back to your army.

I still haven’t though about how to implement the religions. Maybe even make the surviving civilisations religions themselves and disregard the whole religion mechanic.
The only civilisations I considered and their mechanics are as follows:

Empyrean: Focus on finding the contact with the lost gods. Since fire would be totally under the control of the infernals, the Whitefire and Crown of Brilliance would be the only spells that damage surrounding units and only be available to the empyrean units.

Order: Focus on direct demons fighting, Basium style. The demon slaying promotion would probably be a late game promotion, however some Order units would be able to get it by quest/start with it.

Runes of Kilmorph: Focus on hills and earth mana summonings. Same as usual, bonus to production. Siege units. Enchantments on weapons. Maybe make the adamantium promotion only available to Runes of Kilmorph units.

Fellowship of leaves: Focus on forest combat and fawns, following this would allow you to recruit nature creatures (Imagine a planar gate mechanic as Ancient forest tile improvement, that activates once the whole forest has been purified). Bonus to tile reverting.

Council of Esus: Focus on stealth and assassins (what else did you expect?) Flavourwise, the CoE didn’t get their “share of the loot” so they decided to take it away by force. You would have invisible units sent deep into enemy territory to devastate the demons strongholds, before your regular army takes it. Units would start with high attack strength, and very low defence strength and a bit evasion. Imagine a lonely Fro’ D’oh get tracked in the depths of Mordor- sorry, just checking if anyone is actually reading all this - and being surrounded by a horde of thirsty demons. Best used with hit and run tactics.

Octopus Overlords: Mostly barbarian, not available to player. The Ocean would be full of krakens and other sea monsters, and the players ships would have to be very careful in the waters. The Overlord would even have his 8 tentacles reach out of the depths and traverse the waters for unwary prey (Each would have movement of 1, to be avoidable, but have high attack and defence strength as being highly lethal)

Ashen veil: Courtesy of Hyborem, not available to player, demons summoning and stuff.

As for the promotions of the demons, especially the weak ones, I would imagine a similar mechanic that allows the mutate spell to give various promotions. Then some demons would be additionally strong against a certain type of units, or resistant against a certain type of spells, some would be even immune to magic, others even more vulnerable by it. Some would be loyal, others could under certain conditions be subdueable and spared… Only to be used as cannon fodder the next turn.
The basic units the player would build would probably be a basic good for everything/good for defense only, but along with racial promotions, it would start with a few random promotions that give bonuses in certain lines. A warrior would start with 1/4 strength, but only when upgraded to a T1 unit, he would get 2/2, or 3/2, or 3/1 for recon line units etc.

Imagine an Arcane-like promotion called “Strong willed” on a warrior. You could still upgrade him to a swordsman, but if you made him an apprentice, you could have him cast more powerful spells (Summons start with strong promotions). Or Ambidextrous, which would have an extra first strike if on a recon unit, but provide nothing if upgraded to mounted line. Animal friend (1 extra movement on mounted line, else nothing)
The whole thing would look like the Children of Kyrolin in Age of Ice, basically a T0 unit


What follows now are the 4 thankses.
Thanks to you for reading all of that.
Thanks to anyone who can provide any useful feedback to the questions, or provide any constructive opinions or any help at all.
Thanks to 2Kgames for making all those wonderful games, like Civ4.
Thanks to the whole FFH team and all those that help making it the most fantastic mod in history.
 
Your ideas are really cool. It would be great if you could implement this as a scenario. If you can't get it done yourself, maybe the team can can add it in "Ice."
 
That sounds AWESOME.
 
Very interesting storyline. I think that is how Hyb. was envisioned in FFH2 but he doesn't ever get to that level thanks to the AI not being able to play him effectively.
 
Good ideas. 2 points strike me...

1) you don't list what your victory conditions are. Is it only by AC back to 0 ?

2) if no roads and low mobility, large/huge maps may become unplayable
 
Good ideas. 2 points strike me...

1) you don't list what your victory conditions are. Is it only by AC back to 0 ?

2) if no roads and low mobility, large/huge maps may become unplayable

1)The main victory condition would be, as you say, bring AC back to 0. However this would require more roleplay strategies, because just killing Hyborem wouldnt make the AC 0. You would however need to kill him as the final step. (Imagine the Barbarian player have 95 AC count and Hyborem as unit the remaining 5 AC. Plus some infernal or barbarian units would start with prophecy mark promotion).
Maybe other conditions as well. (free up all life and law nodes to bring the demons strength to 1/0.
Maybe have a counter of number of hell tiles. If you revert all to normal, you win.
Maybe a builder victory (The demon-be-gone wonder)
Maybe raze all demon cites option. Still i imagine youd need to raze the cities anyway, then santify the ruins and only then rebuild the ruins into a city.


2) Travel between cities would be allowed by Obsidian gates by same mechanic as currently is. Meaning you have an OG in departing city, you can send it to any city. You have OG in destination city, you can move unlimited number of units there (1 unit per city of course).
The cities would probably be further away anyway, so youd more likely get a kind of "city states" empire. Minimum city distance would probably be turned to 3 or even 4, depending on map type. Id rather have the Infernals bring in forces via tile improvements, like the hellfire tile, or the barrow mechanic and not only by building them in cities. Maybe make the cities build expensive T2-4 units, and tile improvements spawn plenty of T1s... depends on game balance.
Also maybe make the roads available later as to empower double band mechanic, but id rather have the player use the OG to travel from city to city, instead of using the roads over dangerous burning lands teritory.
The workers, since they would be rather consumables, would have 5 movement, as to be able to build your city quickly. But have the infernals destroy the improvements automatically, like the Warmachine does, and since the workers would be cheap, it wouldnt be such a nuisance. If you can defend your teritory, doesnt matter even moreso.

Does anyone know how is the development of ZOCs implementation into BTS continuing?

Lategame roads flavourwise: Survival is not so urgent anymore, we can start to rebuild the empires.
 
Great ideas, most of them seem like they would be implementable (though I haven't messed around with any of the code in Civ IV and I'm basing my guess on what I've already seen and what I can do in an entirely different programming language). However, why not make OO playable? It would allow the player to make the tough choice of getting rid of Hyborem, but giving the world to the Overlords in process, thus creating a similar situation. They would also get aid from the Overlord and his Tentacles, which I can imagine as their own civilization (starting on a small island with some mind-slaves, but slowly creeping back to the mainland if they are aided by a civ that worships them).

Also, would the map be random or premade? I think a premade map would be best, though you could still get very different experiences from it by choosing different groups of survivors in different parts of the world. The majority of the other survivors would be killed, but you could ally with the surviving survivors in the lategame. Or make war with them, if you don't like how their method of saving the world (you are playing as the Order, but they are sacrificing the world to the Overlords).

However you handle it, this sounds like a great idea.
 
1. Not sure about AI weights. You could just try to limit Barbarian techs.

2. Sure it is.

3. Probably, though promotions like you said.

4. You could easily have researching the tech trigger an event that gives out a free promotion, by to all current and future units of a specific unitcombat. It should be possible to have multiple events if you want to give it multiple unitcombats. You could also use python to apply them directly.
(I'm also thinking of adding more weapons promotions with more requirements. I think I'll probably have to set the weapons tiers promotions and resources in CIV4GlobalDefinesAlt.xml to NONE and add spells that apply them. I am concerned that it might hurt the AI though. I'm also implementing the barrage mechanic in my modmod)

5. I'm not sure what you're asking.

6. Probably, although I don't know how to do it. I could make it so that there was a spell creating each type of unit, but I don't know enough to implement the Ghengis Khan or the similar Rhye's Mercenary mechanics.

7. Making the workers need to be sacrificed isn't hard; I'd probably do it my making all the builds spells instead, but you could also delete the workers in python if you want them to still take time to build them. I think there may be a problem with having no roads. The reason that you get water resources is that water is a trade route.

8. I don't see why not.

9. It isn't hard in python, but it wouldn't be documented in game and could get confusing. I want to get Kael to add this ability in xml/SDK, since I personally want to use it too. (I also want ways to un-research techs. I guess I could make an event that removes the tech in python, and probably trigger it by researching other techs. I also want alignment restrictions for techs.)

10. If the terrain it was on was set to be a trade route (like water) then it should be possible. You could also easily make the sanctify spell remove the mana.

I made Basium have 7 traits; my Hyborem has 11. The stuff writen between 10 and 11 isn't hard. I'd like to see a Pieces-of-Barnaxus-type equipment for the mithril golem, allowing it to be rebuilt.

11. Possibly. I think it is possible, but wouldn't be the most efficient use of resources. It could slow down the game significantly.

12. I actually don't think that the barbs do get everyone's mana anymore. They did in Fire (I actually the one who proposed it to Kael when he first suggested affinity and passive effects, although the wording od his quick acceptance made it sound like he was considering it already), but I've tested with world builder and not see it work since BtS. If it were re-added, then it wouldn't be hard to give them negative affinity for good mana types.

13. Hmm..you could give them a promotion that has a pyperturn python define spawning a new unit of the same type if there is only one of that unitclass in the world. It wouldn't be the same as the defeated one though (not the same promotions, xp, etc), although making it identical to the surviving one wouldn't be hard.

14. Sure, in python.

15. I would love that, but I certainly don't know how to do it.

16. It would be kinda complicated. It would probably require that a each civilization would have a different promotion that is given to all of its units.
 
On #13, you could also likely do it through a spell that can only be cast if there are less than two in existence, and can only be cast by those two units.
 
Q5: Would it be possible to assign the Armageddon counter value to the barbarian player? I don’t want the player to stop Armageddon by simply defeating the Infernal lord, while the world is still a burning ball of fire.

5. I'm not sure what you're asking.

As far as i know, currently the AC is the sum of AC values attactched to each player. You raze the cities, so you have the AC value. Try a game where you raze the AC to the limit, and you will have a negative diplo penalty "You are destroying the world". This comes from the fact that you have a major portion on the value of the AC. Its even set so, that the more of the world you destroy, the higher the penalty gets.

Also if you kill an evil AI with high AC, you not only lower the AC by killing an evil civ, but you also delete the AC that it was associated with.

The barbarians on the other hand can never be defeated, hence if i give 100 AC to Infernals, and you defeat them, the AC is back at 0. But if i give 80 AC to barbarians, and 20 AC to Infernals, even if you defeat infernals, you still have 77 AC left (100 minus the Infernals 20 minus 3 for defeating evil civ)


7. Making the workers need to be sacrificed isn't hard; I'd probably do it my making all the builds spells instead, but you could also delete the workers in python if you want them to still take time to build them. I think there may be a problem with having no roads. The reason that you get water resources is that water is a trade route.

What you wanna do with the workers is just like I envision it, make them cast improvements instead of build and get consumed using the fireball autodelete mechanic (more probable) rather than build regularly and then autodelete.
That with the roads seem to be a problem indeed. I had no idea that water was consided a trade route. Maybe ill overcome it by setting the roads on all the map, with being invisible and without bonus to movement, hence useless. But that would probably hurt if they are later made useful and are all over the world...

I'd like to see a Pieces-of-Barnaxus-type equipment for the mithril golem, allowing it to be rebuilt.

Thats a fantastic idea. :goodjob: Could be a multi level quest too.

11. Possibly. I think it is possible, but wouldn't be the most efficient use of resources. It could slow down the game significantly.

Yeah, i feared that too. But when i saw how they implemented the thaw mechanic, without significant increase in memory requirements, i was impressed.
For my laptop, every megabyte counts, late game gets sooo laggy, that after a few turns it gets like 5 turns per hour. Talking about standard ocean map, 15 AIs, save for me and 2 AIs only 1 city each. 10 AIs are my vassals.
However one thing is to have the whole thing run in the beginning, when the AI doesnt have to run all those checks for each spell it can cast etc. The other thing would be running it each turn for a standard/large/huge map, with techs researched.

13. Hmm..you could give them a promotion that has a pyperturn python define spawning a new unit of the same type if there is only one of that unitclass in the world. It wouldn't be the same as the defeated one though (not the same promotions, xp, etc), although making it identical to the surviving one wouldn't be hard.

The mechanic I imagined was probably by having them check on casting a spell "Summon evil twin", To bring them into the creation, either make an event, or make Hyborem build a unit that casts a spell to summon one, and the summoned one will then summon the other. Have them check each turn if they can cast the spell. Both units would probably be world units, but different ones. As for the exp/promotions, i see no reason why not have them get summoned with lets say 3 free promotions, which they choose at the time when built/summoned back. Or define them with the promotions as "starts with". Or have them cast a "self mutate" spell for variability each time they are killed :eek: Options are limitless :D

15. I would love that, but I certainly don't know how to do it.

Perhaps make the cap be a boolean instead of integer? But then i dont know if this cap would be valid for all the other caps, which might be a problem.
On the other hand, the Sheaim would probably get past the cap problem because of their planar gates /units being summoned and not built/ same as infernals. Heck, maybe the cap on vampires will be the only cap there will be.

16. It would be kinda complicated. It would probably require that a each civilization would have a different promotion that is given to all of its units.

Maybe ill just have the half demons go inactive/immobile for a set number of turns to signify the "conflict within" if that turns out to be too hard.
 
Would you consider adding some new races? Fawns, Centaurs, Lamia, Giants, and other races are likely to have disbanded larger empires when they were losing. It looks like an awesome modmod.

Definitely new races. Especially for FoL, id like a broader range of creatures that would be spawnable.

Id also like the player to find some lets say surviving units from either quests or events. Like lets say, you find a group of dwarven survivors on a lone island, that are headed by an elder dwarven hornguard.
Or a few surviving bannor, protected by a season and scarred angel.

As for the other things, firstly the world, that would definitely be pre-made. The way i imagine it now would probably require a custom map script specific to the scenario. A regular map just wouldn't fit.
Maybe ill make/ask arround/generate a few maps and play with them. For strategic gameplay. I imagine standard/large/and huge map versions, not necesarily of the same world. I know there was a map in the forums somewhere that tried to remake Erebus according to the cannon, but that wouldnt fit to my taste.

My current idea of the map setting is following. One large continent, surrounded by few /4-7 smaller subcontinents and some islands, divided by a portion of shoreline. Low water level, because the water was tainted/evaporated by infernal flames. The player would probably start on a large subcontinent, in order not to be overcome by the Infernals right from the beginning, but still to provide a challenge and help leveling units. Maybe the Infernals would have some stygian hags or hapries (with flying promotion) fly over the ocean and harrass you, (to avoid turtling, combat needs to be beneficial). Many quests however, would need to be triggered by visiting other islands/continents or having more than a certain number of cities (more than you can have on your starting subcontinent. I want the player to experience some of the navy fun. With quests like "you have discovered the wreckage of the Black wind with magic artifacts in its safes" which you naturally couldnt experience if you were limited to having secured the forest nearby...

There would probably be more Survivors civs, although they would probably play an inferior role, since i cant imagine having the AI know how to handle them properly in these hard conditions (no settlers buildings, only rebuilding ruins via spells of certain units - the AI in FFH cant even handle casting spring on desert tiles, let alone have it purposefully cast sanctify to remove hell terrain on its continent) so i imagine them rather in the role of your to-be-vassals, future permanent allies. I wouldnt like to have more AIs since in a regular mod, they would probably just want to war each other, and the only war i want to have in the game is Hyborem/OO Barbarians vs. Whats left of Erebus. In a sceniario, its easy to set permanent war/peace with respective civs, but a regular game is much more dynamic.

The AIs would be more useful for quests and events, much like the calabim refugees or khazad forge events that are in FFH right now. Imagine a quest "For sanctifying the ruins of a Cave of ancestors near the ruins of what used to be Cevedes, the surviving Amurites send you one of their most tallented youth"
Or "upon making contact with a group of Khazad warriors and helping them tender their wounded, they decided to join your fortress at "random city" and set up a store/forge there".


Still i need to consider how to make the cannon Erebus civilisations work in this scenario...
 
Old city ruins could use the Unique Feature mechanic, to distinguish the various ruins from one and other (as in a cevedes ruin, a jubilee ruin, a brduk the burning ruin)

these could also supply the mana given be the original civ's palace...
 
That could get really complicated, requiring a unique feature (probably not marked it as unique, so the Elohim won't always see them, but just unbuildable) for every city in the game. I guess it could be interesting though if it were only for a civ's original capital. Of course, this would be odd if there were multiple versions of the same civ in a game. Also, a tile can only provide 1 resource, not all 3 that a palace would.


Oh, wait....I forgot this was in the thread about Moon Hunter's proposed modmod, not the main game! (By the way, this should probably be moved to the Fall from Heaven Maps & Scenarios subforum.) I thought you meant generating a unique feature whenever a city was razed, which has far more problems than just having unique features representing the ruins of fallen civilizations (like remnants of Patria, but from a different age). Yeah, the unique feature mechanic would be good for this.


The ruins of Braduk the Burning though should probably actually be the Eternal Flame, the crater though which Bhall fell into hell. It should probably now be a portal though which many fire-demons to return to creation. More creative names for the other city ruins would probably be better too, probably refering not to the city itself but to some prominent structure found there. Some of the palaces had more creative names in the FfH lore, for instance the Bannor Palace is actually called the Halls of Sabathiel.
 
Yeah, i was thinking that a major wonder that is there in the lore would make a good name for the ruins.

amurites could have cave of the ancestors. (i know that it is't a wonder, but i figure cevedes would have the largest, most sophisticated network.)

So:
Amurites: Caves of the Ancestors:
Balseraph: Halls of Mirrors
Bannor: Halls of Sabathiel
Calabim: Pillar of Chains
Clan: Eternal Flame
Doviello: probably none
Elohim: ????
Grigori:?????
Hippus: Hall of the Horselords
Illians: Letum Frigus
Khazad/Luchuirp: mines of Dol-Goldur
Kuriotates: ????
Lanun: ???? (though could be the wreck of the black wind)
Ljosalfar: Yggdrasil, with a small colony of elves
Malakims: Gem of the desert
Sidar: ?????
Sheim: planar gate (should spawn more barbarians)
 
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