BOTM 14 Final Spoiler - Game Submitted or Abandoned

[jesusin]

lol. yeh, maybe.
I guess I should have said, what are the tips for getting a specialist based cultural win earlier.

I ended up with Sushi powered artists in the three main cultural cities with the rest of my cities running scientists or merchants mainly.
I ended up pulling about 700 /turn towards the end, with 0% and without Oxford

Once you are near the end in a cultural game, research output doesn't matter anymore. It is cultural output that matters.

With zero cottages you get your culture either
- from buildings (did you have a lot of WW, a lot of early temples and monasteries and Sistine's to power them up?)
- from GreatArtists (did you get 25GA and a handful of other types of unwanted GP?)

 

[jesusin]

I settled Babylon in 3950. I saw the pigs, then settled towards the river, in a little river-pocket in fact. Boom, it turned out to have corn too, and later copper. Lucky.

Akkad went between the stone, pigs and corn (and iron, as it turned out). I had thought this was going to be a secondary city, since there were other locations that had more cottage potential. But then I realized these sites had hardly any production, whereas Akkad had a lot. Besides, Akkad was there and these others were just visions in the jungle.

Mayans eliminated by axe rush in 1325 BC. Kept their two cities. No wonder, no religion. Mutal becomes my GA-farm and third cultural city. It was a little stronger than Akkad for most of the game.

One lone galley of mine sailed all the way to Mansa and got the +1 movement bonus. I made the gamble to let my galley declare war on Montezuma, and was rewarded with Mansa (I didn't, like other people, know he was there from the bug in the relations screen). Of course Montezuma didn't want peace - until my galley snagged a workboat of his, and he was ready to talk. Ah, so predictable.
Traded resources with everybody. No more wars.

I did a conservative Code of Laws-slingshot, and am glad, because I read another spoiler where someone missed his shot. Founded confuc, got taoism and buddhism spread to small lonely cities. So nine cathedrals in all.
In this game I was never in organized religion. That's because of another hint from jesusin, one that I have found to be beneficial : organized religion is dangerous to the culture builder, in so far as it can keep him away from pacifism. Which is simply better. Even when you have all those temples and cathedrals to build. Since I got both OR and Pacifism through Shwedagon Paya, it wasn't worth it to go to OR at all.

I teched all the way to Corporation, not so much out of need, but because I could. The auxiliary cities built research when they were done building granary, temples and courthouse. (I just realize that I should have given them libraries too). I had a great trading partner in Mansa. I had heard about him, but I had never realized what a dedicated scientist that guy really is. He was trading away everything.

I built wonders a bit haphazardly. Very stupidly I built Sistine Chapel in Babylon with a Great Engineer. If building Hermitage in the capital was a mistake, this earlier one compounded it. Sistine Chapel should of course have been great-engineered in Mutal, where it would help to farm GA's.
Mutal got Colossus and Moai Statues ; useful early on, but later on I wasn't working any sea tiles, when it was all about farming the GA.
Of course marble was sorely missed. At least I managed to build Shwedagon Paya with the bonus of traded gold National Epic of course and Parthenon. Pyramids, Hanging gardens and a few others. Missed out on Mausoleum of Maussollos.

Bearing my haphazard wonder-building in mind, I got the following Great People:
10 GA's (bombed 4 in Mutal, 6 in Akkad) I know I should probaly settle a few, but I can't.
3 GM's (trade mission, golden age and I don't wanna know what I did whith the useless third)
3 GE's (Sistine Chapel, Taj Mahal and a less useful wonder. I was trying so hard to get GE's, I got one too many

Very solid game.

Colossus? Hmm, might have won you some turns of research and of course also a bit of culture in Mutai because of the building itself, but 3GM... think about 3GA instead... Same goes for Moai.

I don't understand why you built any wonders in the GPFarm in the first place. Specially since you were sacrificing OR for Pacifism. Shouldn't all those people in the mines have been hired as artists? Well, it is true you couldn't have built them in the other 2 cities, since they were not coastal, but they aren't so great anyway.

And you prefered a GE over a GA That's sacrilegous! Repent, you sinner!
With so good a production city as your 2nd city, by the stone, why would you need any GE at all? Yes, marble is very important.

Do you remember what your culture multipliers were (or how many cathedrals you built in each city)?


Don't let my desire for perfection mislead you: I admire your game, very good one!

 

[jesusin]

But, I guess a faster win is cottaging early, growing the cottages, and getting the supporting cathedrals in via universal suffrage.

I think US is too slow. When I don't have the mines, I love a short spam of slavery+OR during a golden age, then back to CS+Pacifism before the GAge ends.

 

[jesusin]

I reached Liberalism and Astronomy first, then soon settled a few islands and turned the over to a Vassal Colony (Cyrus).

Interesting move. Was that good for your economy?
I mean, keeping the cities couldn't posibly have cost you too much, weren't they paying for themselves?

 

[godotnut]

I think US is too slow. When I don't have the mines, I love a short spam of slavery+OR during a golden age, then back to CS+Pacifism before the GAge ends.

I've tested both the Universal Suffrage method and Jesusin's, and I can vouch that he is correct in the vast majority of situations.

 

[Lexad]

Usually you build cathedrals with particular resource, which gives you with forge and OR +150% production bonus. Which is applicable to direct hammers, chops and pop-rushes, but not gold rushes. Therefore if you purchase smth, purchase temples (unless you're Spiritual - all the same then) and monasteries, not cathedrals.

 

[SirDrake]

I reached Liberalism and Astronomy first, then soon settled a few islands and turned the over to a Vassal Colony (Cyrus).

Interesting move. Was that good for your economy?
I mean, keeping the cities couldn't posibly have cost you too much, weren't they paying for themselves?

In retrospect, I don't think it was a good move. That island just to the west had quite a bit of land and was very close to the capital.

Partly, I did it for the vassal benefits: +1 happy and a guaranteed foreign trade partner.

Mostly, it was a matter of paranoia. With tech brokering allowed, as I understand it, a vassal is free to whore out everything I've researched at discount prices to big-time rivals. I already had a tech lead, and it was growing. So my standard modus operandus is to break a vassal as soon as possible (usually with two cities) before going any higher up the tech tree.

That keeps my options open. If, later on, I settle/conquer something and want to keep it, I just keep it. But if I want to break it off, I can hand it over to an existing vassal, rather than breaking a new vassal who gets all of my techs to that point.

But as it turned out there weren't any significant unsettled landmasses (I'd never played an archipelago map before; I'd expected something like a dozen little rocks unaccessible prior to Astronomy). So the insurance plan never paid off, as the only thing I added to Cyrus' empire was a single city way up at the top-right corner of the map.

Cheers,
Jason

 

[toller pretzl]

Yes I said that (EDIT: excluding the word "always") and put 3 exercises for 3 different situations in which it was better to have it in each of your 3 cultural cities (best, medium, worst) respectively.
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=298093

Yes, true. It depends on how many GA you get.

10 turns is not perfect... but it is not too bad, considering it was Epic speed.

In reality, if I had treated the capital normally towards the end, it would have been a little more than 10 turns. Instead I started building troops there, and when it was nearly legendary I farmed over all my beautiful towns to generate one more GA - which worked nicely.

On the other hand there were other things I could have done to balance the capital better, most notably not great-engineering Sistine Chapel there, and finding a way to get more GA (instead of the 3 GM and the last GE).

I'd say it may have been the right decision. Are you interested in knowing for sure? Do you like maths?

I'm not too crazy about maths. Maybe I'd better aim for a hunch in this case.

Do you remember what your culture multipliers were (or how many cathedrals you built in each city)?

9 cathedrals. The ninth cathedral in the capital was rather an afterthought, it was already running away then.

Colossus? Hmm, might have won you some turns of research and of course also a bit of culture in Mutai because of the building itself, but 3GM... think about 3GA instead... Same goes for Moai.

I don't understand why you built any wonders in the GPFarm in the first place. Specially since you were sacrificing OR for Pacifism. Shouldn't all those people in the mines have been hired as artists?

Yes, I built quite a lot in that GA-farm. I also built aquaduct, garden, harbour (you will approve, they help to hire more artists), theatre, 3 monasteries, 3 temples and 3 cathedrals. Besides library and National Epic of course, without marble. Because I built so much, it was a good thing that I had built the Maoi Statues and a forge But that is another hard thing to calculate.

 

[jesusin]

I've tested both the Universal Suffrage method and Jesusin's, and I can vouch that he is correct in the vast majority of situations.

You mean that I am wrong in some situations!

J/K


I'm interested, please, which situations would you find more prone to using US?

 

[jesusin]

Yes, true. It depends on how many GA you get.



In reality, if I had treated the capital normally towards the end, it would have been a little more than 10 turns. Instead I started building troops there, and when it was nearly legendary I farmed over all my beautiful towns to generate one more GA - which worked nicely.

On the other hand there were other things I could have done to balance the capital better, most notably not great-engineering Sistine Chapel there, and finding a way to get more GA (instead of the 3 GM and the last GE).



I'm not too crazy about maths. Maybe I'd better aim for a hunch in this case.

I looks like you were 2-3GA short for having the Hermitage in the capital.
My hunch here is that you are right and it would have been better in the second best city.

 

[darreljnz]

First post

When we last left I was in a good position. Got 3 early wonders, Pacal's capital site recovered my economy, gained significant tech lead and was about to take on the 3 Jewish AI's.

I squashed Sitting Bull and was about to squish Pacal to clear my continent when the Ottomans vassalised them. Being the crappy player I am I attacked Pacal anyway not realising it meant I was declaring war on Ottoman too (I haven't played uch BtS and wasn't sure about what vassals meant for diplomacy).

At this point the diplomatics for the game were set in stone: France and Ottoman as the Jewish powerhouse (also with the AP), me and Mansa as trading parties and Monty who hated everyone - but hated me the least - which is exactly where you want Monty.

I got Monty and Mansa to chew on France while I went to town on Ottoman. Another demonstration of my lack of knowledge I had a stack of about 20 units off the coast of the Ottomans and decided to demand tribute before declaring war - not realising this meant 10 turns of enforced peace. If I'd known that I would have just invaded but I felt so stupid having a massive stack off the coast paying upkeep for 10 extra turns.

Once the invasion was under way things went well. Narrowly avoided an AP loss by taking 3 Jewish cities off Sulemian with Sitting Bulls cities making the balance of the votes to vote it down.

Before I launched the attack on Sulemain I knew I had it in the bag but as usual my end game was atrocious. By the time I was halfway through Sulemain I had a massive tech lead (at least 6 techs on Mansa - the closest AI). I spent ages with infanty/marines/paratroopers/artillery/tanks vs musketeers and longbows. It was just way too slow getting troops there even with airports. I need to work on that. Perhaps more transports so I don't have to walk all the way across a large continent.

France was next and went down easy. At this point I should have just spread Judaism and won AP after stealing it off France but I took down Monty instead of a domination win in 1873. Awesome result for me but I made several serious mistakes. I think I could have done it in 1800 easy, maybe even 1750 if I was on the ball.

Lessons learned:
-SE means farms. Lots of farms. I had too much of a mix of cottages to make an effective SE.
-Don't extort money before invasion.
-Don't attack a vassal unless you want to fight its master.
-Don't ignore AP
-Concentrate on a good naval logistics train otherwise your shiny troops will never get to the battlefield.
-Don't build excess buildings where they aren't needed.
-Early rushes for a good capital spot are great.
-Espionage is good but either needs to be focussed on or largely ignored - a middle ground isn't worthwhile.

 

[Gosha190]

@Gosha190
(2450BC Mutal was captured (4 warriors with CR promotion vs 1 archer), Maya killed)

With how many warriors did you attack Mutal? Only these four? Or how much warriors would you build to be "sure" to capture a city against one archer?
I tried a warrior rush once against one archer and after suiciding three warriors the archer had still 2.7 base strenght.


And an other more general question: If you would have played for a space victory in this game, would you have cottaged a lot of tiles? Or after building the pyramids just go for a SE economy without cottages? (so did I in this game; generally I tend to do SE if I build the pyramids but I am uncertain if this is a good strategy for a space race).


Thanks in advanced for helping me to improve my game!

1. 2 warriors died, 3-d won.
2. I was not "sure" at all. I was ready lost them and finish my game. Warrior rush is significantly random depended thing.
3. As for me, SE economy does not look good at this map. In current case hammer economy looks like the best choice. So you need to research Guilds+Chemistry+ adopt caste. Beside that, it is a good idea to build Pyrs for happiness, GLhouse, Colossus. I built all cities at the beginning on a coast only to get max effect from sea wonders. NE looks good in Pacal capital.

 

[srad]

Thanks! Hammer economy is an interesting thought!

 

[Gosha190]

Thanks! Hammer economy is an interesting thought!

you'll see my save as illustration. Main problem for me in botm14 was: wiil I need communism or not? I decided to get it There were no any calculations.. just for a case

 

[TheMeInTeam]

In retrospect, I don't think it was a good move. That island just to the west had quite a bit of land and was very close to the capital.

Partly, I did it for the vassal benefits: +1 happy and a guaranteed foreign trade partner.

Mostly, it was a matter of paranoia. With tech brokering allowed, as I understand it, a vassal is free to whore out everything I've researched at discount prices to big-time rivals. I already had a tech lead, and it was growing. So my standard modus operandus is to break a vassal as soon as possible (usually with two cities) before going any higher up the tech tree.

That keeps my options open. If, later on, I settle/conquer something and want to keep it, I just keep it. But if I want to break it off, I can hand it over to an existing vassal, rather than breaking a new vassal who gets all of my techs to that point.

But as it turned out there weren't any significant unsettled landmasses (I'd never played an archipelago map before; I'd expected something like a dozen little rocks unaccessible prior to Astronomy). So the insurance plan never paid off, as the only thing I added to Cyrus' empire was a single city way up at the top-right corner of the map.

Cheers,
Jason

Vassals obey the usual AI to AI trade rules. If they are WAY more advanced than the AI, they won't be trading anything, because the others will have nothing to give them.

 

[Thaliana]

First BOTM and first victory on Monarch - 1625 Diplomatic Victory

I didn't totally like the starting location and wandered for 3 turns not finding much better; ended up settling to the west of the coastal corn. Second city with pigs, corn, and FP to spam workers/settlers while my capital built GLH (1275 BC) and Colossus (80 BC) for a coastal economy. REX'd with the 5th city at the warrior starting location. Moved the capital there after buidling Moai for an excellent production & commerce Bureaucracy capital.

Attacked Pacal around 0 AD with axes but failed when his chariots showed up - I don't remember the 100% bonus vs. axemen in Vanilla; I assume this is new for BtS? Eventually took all of Pacal's non-jungle cities with maces + cats far too slowly.

Kept a tech lead over everyone throughout while beelining Mass Media (Radio from Liberalism); only enemy was Mansa, a Confucian in a Buddhist world. The issue for the diplo victory was that Suleiman and De Gaulle were #2 and #3 and liked each other more than either liked me. As no one liked Monty (big surprise), I captured a fortunately placed barb city bordering the Aztecs and tried to build the UN there with help from a GE. Forgot that one GE wouldn't do quite enough, so had to tech to Demo to finish the job with a cash rush (another century later...) Got myself elected Secretary General, gifted the UN city to Monty, diplo victory succeeded on first vote with help from Suleiman, De Gaulle, and SB.

Quite pleased with the game overall; only the two major mistakes of axes not standing a chance vs chariots and having to cash rush the UN.

Thanks for the excellent game, DynamicSpirit!

Thaliana

 

[jesusin]

Very very good result for a first game, Thaliana!

Yes, Chariot bonus versus Axe is new in BTS. Axes had no counter in Vanilla, so I like the change.

 

[Ribannah]

1. 2 warriors died, 3-d won.
2. I was not "sure" at all. I was ready lost them and finish my game. Warrior rush is significantly random depended thing.

A very unlikely result. You seem to need less troops to take out the first opponent quickly than the rest of us.

Let me analyse this a bit further:

- you built several Warriors for which you had absolutely no use unless you were going to attack with them;

4000BC settled in the place, research fish, production worker
3825BC fish
3375BC animal
3150BC mine
2775BC writing
2600BC myst
2450BC Mutal was captured (4 warriors with CR promotion vs 1 archer), Maya killed

- you committed to this attack on turn one where you decided to skip making a workboat asap, which in all other respects is the clearly preferable start, and did so before you knew you shared a continent with an AI;
- although committed, you attacked with only four Warriors, while it is easily possible on Contender have a stack of 7 promoted Warriors (or in fact 1 Warrior plus 4 promoted Bowmen) instead on that same turn; of course then you wouldn't have been able to build the Oracle so fast or even at all;
- however on this map the Oracle slingshot is only a viable strategy if you are certain to conquer an AI capital (and even then barely so), because otherwise your early expansion would suffer too much;
- you had no way of knowing that Pacal would have only one defender in his capital by the time you were ready to attack;
- but, as long as you attacked with only 4 Warriors, you could have done so a good number of turns earlier, not taking the risk of running into 2 defenders; of course, then his capital would not just have grown to size 5 and perhaps lack one fishing boat.

IMHO some explanation is in order, so that we can all learn a thing or two.

 

[Lexad]

Couple of points in Gosha's absence, if I may.

- you do plan warrior rush from turn 1, no news in that. Of course, it is risky - if it failed, you'd be far far behind in expansion, as you correctly suggested. However, as we do not see Gosha submitting every tourney, I do expect him failing from time to time And as he needs fastest military finish this tourney, risky behaviour is the one that can be expected.
- same goes for Oracle_rush. I won't risk that much, but I play rather conservatively.
- as for "you had no way of knowing that Pacal would have only one defender in his capital by the time you were ready to attack", that usually envolves espionage, power graph analysis and open borders allowing pre-war scan
- as for the timing of offense, the player might make his final decision later when he sees no power graph surges from the AI.

 

[da_Vinci]

Got started late on this one, no time for trying out new approaches. Figured some type of diplo, as that is what I can do in the shortest time.

Settled 2E of the hill sheep, for sheep, 3 wine, silk.

2150 Akkad to the SE, S of copper, N of corn, also had pigs. Became GP farm.

1600 DurKur ... well south of capital ... stone, iron, horse, corn pig. This became HE city.

70 AD Nippur on the west peninsula between the sheep.

650 BC mids in Babylon

145 AD GLib in Akkad

625 AD Parthenon ... forget where

450 AD war on Pacal

940 AD one city left, peace for techs.

1020 War SB

1050 War Pacal

1080 Circumnav

1090 Pacal dead, war Monte at DG request

DG was pleased, so figured to make him friendly with shared war ... got him to +19 by the end

Somewhere I wiped out SB, ran for MM. Had Communism for SP, Biol for food spam.

At the end, took two Monte cities, build UN in one in case a gift was needed ... then he vassaled to DG. Luckily, Sul passed DG in pop, so no gift needed.

UN 1778, got Kremlin before MM to speed the cash buy, had one GE.

Diplol 1798 by 5 VOTES on first ballot! ... final score 75,210

Maybe I will try the hw plan for Frederick coming up ...

dV