BOTM 17 First Spoiler
- Thread starter DynamicSpirit
- Start date
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Workers, {___3___}, ___3___ , [___ ___]
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Let me know if this is helpful to you and any recommendations.I will always use 1oooBC, 0AD, and 1oooAD (in second spoiler), and near end of game [if anyone wants to play along at home and laugh at my results compared to theirs].[/SIZE][/FONT]
Thank you for the stats.
I think they could use a small write-up to go with them (like "I Oracled CS" and priority techs researched).
Only 3 workers? Did they keep up with your growth?
I think there are a couple of contradictiosn here... or maybe I just haven't understood your plans.
If you are going to conquer the cities and you can't keep them, what's the use of spreading your shrined religions first?
If you are going to conquer, why are you so worried about money? Taking cities will pay for your units.
If you are worried about money because you want to research further, why waste good beakers on new religions?
I'm confused
Was oracling Feudalism a good idea?
I would have thought that Oracling CS (you can do it the same turn you did) and then researching Feud the slow way would have been better...
I mean, what is Musa early vassaling going to give you? Enough to compensate for not running bureaucracy?
Now that I'm thinking about it I realise you might have planned to finish the game without ever researching CS... I'm probably overestimating overseas noble AI and you'll probably conquer them with just cats, lbs, swords and HA.
Thanks so much! I love reading and commenting what other people did. I think I learn more this way than actually playing!
I hope my comments of your game will be useful enough to make you write again next game
Hmmm, if going for culture you'll never want to research as far as the NatPark. If you are thinking about the NatPark and respecting all that juice trees then you already have decided to go for a Space game.
Excuse meeeeee!
You haven't decided your victory condition! 
You mean you've taken the all important decision to forgo early units for the Pyramids but you don't know what victory condition you're after? And you don't know what will the Pyramids do for that victory condition?
You mean you will build those units anyway after your WW, even when by then they might be completely useless?
You mean you want stone and will cause a war to get it but you don't know what good will stone do towards your still-unknown VC?
The good news is none of your decisions is bad. None of them!
The bad news is decisions are only good or bad in respect to your intended victory condition and the strategy you've decided to follow to reach that victory.
Wow, what an army for Sury! Impressive.
If you are going for Space, why kill Musa? Wouldn't he have been more useful as a trading partner (you gifting him everyone of your techs so that he researches something useful for you)?
If you are going for Conquest instead, why build the shrine instead of just settling the GProphet?
That's the LowtherCastle we all love! Go LC, go!
I mined the Madrid pigs and then forgot to pasture them when I got AH, all the time angonizing over how slowly Madrid was growing...
That's the LowtherCastle we all know!
600 bpt! Impressive!
You could get off to Space real quick with such a research capability. But you've been brave enough to be (the only one?) going for domination this game. I wish you luck!
jesusin, challenger. Goal: fastest cultural victory. (Or the story of a not at all peaceful game and the pigs that preferred mines to pastures).
Why challenger?
Noble is far too easy for me. Also, I couldn't find the Immortal save anywhere.
Why culture?
I toyed with the idea of going for world vassalization for gold medal, but sounded far too boring. I toyed with the idea of going for fastest reli¡gious victory, I'll probably replay this map and try that.
But playing for culture is so fun! It's been so long! I'm having a blast.
Also I hoped there will be many games to compare to.
Deciding the first tech to research. (Or the story of how I spent the first day of playing)
I wanted the CS sling. Looking at the map I realised I was in sore need of Agr, AH, Min, Pott (or bad research rate otherwise), wheel, Hunt and a couple of early religions to go with it... A bit too much for the sling on top of it. What to discard in the beginning?
Normally I would have done Agr and AH first while building Worker. Food is better than hammers and than beakers... but this game there are no settlers to build... and happiness is limited... and my cities can grow fast enough to the happy limit with fishes and FPs... So I discarded both Agr and AH.
Religion first (just one) means no task for early workers... so no early workers.
Meditation-Mining-Wheel-Pottery are my priorities. I am decided. Saturday is gone. Save game, continue tomorrow. I am happy. I've already taken the most important decisions of my game: chosen VC
culture, first tech (Medi), medium term goal (CS sling).
First steps.
Choose Medi, then Mining.
Set slider at 0% for 5 turns.
Send all units exploring.
Madrid: WB, then grow to pop2 with fish, only then Woorker while getting the extra hammer.
Barcelona: Monu till pop2, then Worker while getting the extra hammer.
Sevilla: Maximize hammers, first Monu then WB.
Turn1: see Musa capital.
Can 3Archers and 1 Warrior kill 1Squirmisher?
Can't he be my friend instead? He's not so bad a researcher.
Spy points: 5/0. He is using the slider for spy points!!!
Turn9: Sury met. He wil dow me even at pleased. If I let him develop, he will dow me sooner or later. His corn is not improved, I'll pick his workers there and have him backwards for the whole game. Maybe an elephant will kill his archers later on.
My mission is clear: no tile improved in his lands!
Turn12: Budism founded in pop1 Seville and not in pop2, severely needing culture Barcelona, puaj.
Enough for a weekend. Yes, I'm a slow and deliberate player.
TBC.
Since by 500AD the game was all but wrapped up, I'll stop here and continue in the final spoiler.
Why challenger?
Noble is far too easy for me. Also, I couldn't find the Immortal save anywhere.
Why culture?
I toyed with the idea of going for world vassalization for gold medal, but sounded far too boring. I toyed with the idea of going for fastest reli¡gious victory, I'll probably replay this map and try that.
But playing for culture is so fun! It's been so long! I'm having a blast.
Also I hoped there will be many games to compare to.
Deciding the first tech to research. (Or the story of how I spent the first day of playing)
I wanted the CS sling. Looking at the map I realised I was in sore need of Agr, AH, Min, Pott (or bad research rate otherwise), wheel, Hunt and a couple of early religions to go with it... A bit too much for the sling on top of it. What to discard in the beginning?
Normally I would have done Agr and AH first while building Worker. Food is better than hammers and than beakers... but this game there are no settlers to build... and happiness is limited... and my cities can grow fast enough to the happy limit with fishes and FPs... So I discarded both Agr and AH.
Religion first (just one) means no task for early workers... so no early workers.
Meditation-Mining-Wheel-Pottery are my priorities. I am decided. Saturday is gone. Save game, continue tomorrow. I am happy. I've already taken the most important decisions of my game: chosen VC
culture, first tech (Medi), medium term goal (CS sling).First steps.
Choose Medi, then Mining.
Set slider at 0% for 5 turns.
Send all units exploring.
Madrid: WB, then grow to pop2 with fish, only then Woorker while getting the extra hammer.
Barcelona: Monu till pop2, then Worker while getting the extra hammer.
Sevilla: Maximize hammers, first Monu then WB.
Turn1: see Musa capital.
Can 3Archers and 1 Warrior kill 1Squirmisher?
Can't he be my friend instead? He's not so bad a researcher.
Spy points: 5/0. He is using the slider for spy points!!!
Turn9: Sury met. He wil dow me even at pleased. If I let him develop, he will dow me sooner or later. His corn is not improved, I'll pick his workers there and have him backwards for the whole game. Maybe an elephant will kill his archers later on.
My mission is clear: no tile improved in his lands!
Turn12: Budism founded in pop1 Seville and not in pop2, severely needing culture Barcelona, puaj.
Enough for a weekend. Yes, I'm a slow and deliberate player.
TBC.
Since by 500AD the game was all but wrapped up, I'll stop here and continue in the final spoiler.
ShannonCT
Deity
I didn't want to Oracle CS because then Great Scientists will want to bulb Paper, Education and Printing Press before Optics and Astronomy. After I bulbed Astro in 400BC, I went straight for CS and then used cash from a Merchant and from tech trades to upgrade 10 or so axes to maces. The first wave to hit the overseas AI were axes/LBs/cats but I soon had maces and trebs as well.
The benefits of vassalizing Mansa weren't great at this level, but at least I could give him techs that he needed and then tell him to research techs that would be of some use to me. Later, I just told him to research techs that I had no use for so I could trade for them to increase my score.
I think there are a couple of contradictiosn here... or maybe I just haven't understood your plans.
If you are going to conquer the cities and you can't keep them, what's the use of spreading your shrined religions first?
If you are going to conquer, why are you so worried about money? Taking cities will pay for your units.
If you are worried about money because you want to research further, why waste good beakers on new religions?
I'm confused
I didnt spread my rel to all the cities, just like 2 cities and initially this was just to make trading easy by getting in the same religion. After the intial spread to Sury, I then let him spread the religion himself, which he did very successfully and I later thanked him for it.
Overseas, I did the same, spread to a few foreign cities. Then when I went to conquer, I rarely destroyed a city w/ hinduism in it. I often made converting religion one of my demands for peace hoping they would then further spread that religion, which they did.
Unfortunately, you are right in terms of money, I end up not needing the money, a lesson learned here is to not stray from my goal as this would have been a much simpler and faster game had I stuck to the main goal. I also made a mistake by not vassaling Sury early, I wanted to go for PA w/ him, but I did not think this through entirely, it would have meant delaying war because def pact is cancelled on dow. typically this sums up my mistakes in conquest / domination games: not sticking to the main goal.
I initially wanted to Oracle Feudalism, but changed my mind & Oralced CS, and after reading your plan, realized I should have stuck w/ Feud
How usefull was the early religion in your game? On prince/noble getting the 4 late religions (+ maybe judaism) shouldn't be a problem, how much having one more actually helps?
For some reason I didn't even consider taking the wheel->pottery route to writing and went agriculture->AH. Mainly because without AH the capital wasn't able to support two scientists and the gem mine. But the wheel->pottery route has its strong sides too, and now I have a feeling that the tech path you (and LC) used might have been better. Maybe I'll try to replay the opening turns going wheel->pottery.
Did you go for alphabet first or directly to CS? I went alphabet first, but was disappointed, couldn't get any of the skipped worker techs for a very long time.
Basically the early religion ws useless in the early game (it would have been different if it had been founded in Barcelona).
A bit later my cities didn't really have much useful to build, so it was nice to have them busy with missionaries and temples.
When I got Music I was glad to have the religion and the temples already built, something you can't have with Christianity or Islam.
In the end game (or better, in the end of research around 1AD) you are glad to be able not to research DivRig because you have enough religions with the early one.
All in all, in a regular game I hate going for an early religion. In this game it was ok because of the relaxed need for temples and the seaside start (if you are not going worker first you can as well research a religion first).
Directly to CS. When in bureaucracy, my first goal was Alphabet. I was dissaponted when I got it.
Challenger save - Goal : SPACE
Initial plan is to get quickly to Biology and make Madrid my NP city with Oxford and NE, so I will have to save the forests.
Sevilla should be my early GP Farm, and then be turned into production center with IW and militay national wonders.
Barcelona should be cottaged heavily.
Techwise, I want to oracle CS and lib to biology
================
Let's start!
Tech path :
Agri > Mining > AH > Wheel > Pottery > writing > BW > Hunting (2000 BC) > Polyt > Priesthood > COL > Math (1280BC) > masonry
Madrid : workboat > worker > barracks > chariots
Sevilla : monument > workboat > worker > barracks > worker > lib
Barcelona : worker > monument > SH
I pondered about rushing MM, but the only real benefit was to grab stone. I decided against it, and rather built Stonehenge in Barcelona to get all the tiles of the BFC quickly. SH was done in 2200BC.
To further increase the culture of Barcelona, I wanted Confucianism to be founded there. So I managed the growth of the cities to have pop 7 in Barcelona and pop 5 in Sevilla when COL was discovered. It worked and Confucianism appeared in Barcelona (1480BC).
MM had founded judaism, and Sury had no religion. I converted to confu and spread it to Sury who converted too, and he became pleased and later friendly, allowing me to get some techs I neglected. I put my spy points on him to try as much as possible to research different things. But he was so backward that it didn't help a lot. MM was even more backward. He got BW in 325BC. He was fortunate nobody rushed him. I guess Sury will DOW him at some point, and I might join. I think we are only 3 on this continent, I'm circling it with a wb.
My 1st GS was born in Sevilla (1360BC), he created an Academy in Madrid.
Oracle Was built in Madrid in 1160BC and I took CS which allowed bureaucracy.
Pyramids were built in Madrid in 600BC and allowed representation.
The 2nd GS in Sevilla (450BC) was settled in Madrid. No point in bulbing Educ which was 1 turn away, and I forgot about building an academy in Barcelona for a long time.
I learned Education 425BC and Philosophy in 275BC, but I stayed in OR till after 500AD, because at that point building infrastructure was more important, but it would change once I get the NP up and going.
Taoism was founded in Barcelona too.
Madrid completed Oxford in 225AD, Glib 375AD and NE 475AD.
Sevilla switched from GP production to growth and hammer production. I kept 4 forests to help with health since I plan to build IW and coal plant there.
Barcelona got a cottage on every flatland except the wheat, but some aren't grown yet. There are mines on the hills, but they might be converted to windmills later(when I get electricity).
1000BC pop :
Madrid : 7
Sevilla : 6
Barcelona : 8
0AD pop :
Madrid : 11
Sevilla : 10
Barcelona : 13
500AD pop :
Madrid : 12
Sevilla : 13
Barcelona : 12
500AD :
464bpt @100% research
406bpt @80% research without gold deficit
6 town - 7 village - 1 hamlet
Some backfilling techs with Sury or on my own, and I researched the prereqs to chemistry and Sci Meth.
At 500AD, I need gunpowder > chemistry > Sci Method (time estimated 12 turns) then it will be Lib to get biology as planned.
I have 5 workers but I will rise to 8 to be able to build forest preserves in 1 turn. Every forest is roaded already.
There are the original 9, but I didn't want to lose the opportunity to grow cottages on the other tiles on the hope that a forest would maybe spread.
I will switch to caste / pacifism once NP is completed.
Initial plan is to get quickly to Biology and make Madrid my NP city with Oxford and NE, so I will have to save the forests.
Sevilla should be my early GP Farm, and then be turned into production center with IW and militay national wonders.
Barcelona should be cottaged heavily.
Techwise, I want to oracle CS and lib to biology
================
Let's start!
Tech path :
Agri > Mining > AH > Wheel > Pottery > writing > BW > Hunting (2000 BC) > Polyt > Priesthood > COL > Math (1280BC) > masonry
Madrid : workboat > worker > barracks > chariots
Sevilla : monument > workboat > worker > barracks > worker > lib
Barcelona : worker > monument > SH
I pondered about rushing MM, but the only real benefit was to grab stone. I decided against it, and rather built Stonehenge in Barcelona to get all the tiles of the BFC quickly. SH was done in 2200BC.
To further increase the culture of Barcelona, I wanted Confucianism to be founded there. So I managed the growth of the cities to have pop 7 in Barcelona and pop 5 in Sevilla when COL was discovered. It worked and Confucianism appeared in Barcelona (1480BC).
MM had founded judaism, and Sury had no religion. I converted to confu and spread it to Sury who converted too, and he became pleased and later friendly, allowing me to get some techs I neglected. I put my spy points on him to try as much as possible to research different things. But he was so backward that it didn't help a lot. MM was even more backward. He got BW in 325BC. He was fortunate nobody rushed him. I guess Sury will DOW him at some point, and I might join. I think we are only 3 on this continent, I'm circling it with a wb.
My 1st GS was born in Sevilla (1360BC), he created an Academy in Madrid.
Oracle Was built in Madrid in 1160BC and I took CS which allowed bureaucracy.
Pyramids were built in Madrid in 600BC and allowed representation.
The 2nd GS in Sevilla (450BC) was settled in Madrid. No point in bulbing Educ which was 1 turn away, and I forgot about building an academy in Barcelona for a long time.
I learned Education 425BC and Philosophy in 275BC, but I stayed in OR till after 500AD, because at that point building infrastructure was more important, but it would change once I get the NP up and going.
Taoism was founded in Barcelona too.
Madrid completed Oxford in 225AD, Glib 375AD and NE 475AD.
Sevilla switched from GP production to growth and hammer production. I kept 4 forests to help with health since I plan to build IW and coal plant there.
Barcelona got a cottage on every flatland except the wheat, but some aren't grown yet. There are mines on the hills, but they might be converted to windmills later(when I get electricity).
1000BC pop :
Madrid : 7
Sevilla : 6
Barcelona : 8
0AD pop :
Madrid : 11
Sevilla : 10
Barcelona : 13
500AD pop :
Madrid : 12
Sevilla : 13
Barcelona : 12
500AD :
464bpt @100% research
406bpt @80% research without gold deficit
6 town - 7 village - 1 hamlet
Some backfilling techs with Sury or on my own, and I researched the prereqs to chemistry and Sci Meth.
At 500AD, I need gunpowder > chemistry > Sci Method (time estimated 12 turns) then it will be Lib to get biology as planned.
I have 5 workers but I will rise to 8 to be able to build forest preserves in 1 turn. Every forest is roaded already.
There are the original 9, but I didn't want to lose the opportunity to grow cottages on the other tiles on the hope that a forest would maybe spread.
I will switch to caste / pacifism once NP is completed.
Challenger save.
Goal: Domination victory.
I'll describe my beginning because it was a bit different and perhaps interesing. Then I'll describe where I'm at at 475AD and some hilarious blunders I made.
475 AD
CS-slingshot 1240BC
Educ 475 BC
Academy 225 BC
Astro 250AD
* I built a total of 5 workers and haven't DoWed anyone yet.
* Research 600bpt, 100% throughout
* 8 towns, 13 villages, 10 hamlets
We have close date for the CS slingshot and Educ (1160BC / 425BC for me); when did you get your first GS?
600bpt is impressive, I have only 464 at 500AD. But I didn't cottage Sevilla since it was my early GPFarm, to be turned into production powerhouse.
Did you chop Madrid's forest too? That would explain the difference between us, but my goal was more long-term while your game should be finished before you get biology.
What were your cities pop too?
@skurn:
A couple things I don't understand.
After building two monuments, why Stonehenge? Surely there are better things to build, even if its just the culture you want?
Also... if Sevilla was to be your early GPFram, why put the NE in Madrid? Are you trying to get a lot of late GP's from your National Park specialists (I presume its GE's you are after)? BTW: Don't late GP's have less impact in the game compared to early ones?
A couple things I don't understand.
After building two monuments, why Stonehenge? Surely there are better things to build, even if its just the culture you want?
Also... if Sevilla was to be your early GPFram, why put the NE in Madrid? Are you trying to get a lot of late GP's from your National Park specialists (I presume its GE's you are after)? BTW: Don't late GP's have less impact in the game compared to early ones?
Well, I wanted to let the city grow, so I could build Barracks / warrior and that was about it. Even if I missed SH, I would get gold. And the culture from SH is huge, it doubles after 1000 years which is quite fast so early. On the other hand, if MM built it, I could be in trouble.
In fact, I should have started SH right after the worker, the monument in Barcelona wasn't really useful. In Sevilla though I needed a quick border pop to get the fish and the pig.
When I got Lit, Sevilla had already generated 2 GS and was converting to production because I had switched to slavery. Both Sevilla & Madrid had 2 regular specialists, but Madrid also built the GLib.
I agree about early specialist when it comes to bulbing. But in this game I'm so much ahead the AI that bulbing makes little sense. Besides, beakers bulbed depend on population so I'm not going to bulb a lot with 3 cities.
Settled GS (or GE) under rep in Oxford city are really good. I can't really talk about my science / gpeople output after 500AD now, so I'll tell you in the final spoiler when my game is finished.
If I targetted another VC than space, I would have played it differently though. But in this case I want science output at the end too.
PS : I also considered moving the capital to Barcelona and building Oxford there, because the raw commerce generated was higher than in Madrid, and with bureaucracy that would add up a lot. Then I would have settled my GPeople there. I didn't do it, and I have the feeling I was wrong.
Thanks Skurn... it is a very interesting approach, and something I probaly would never think of doing on my own. Do you think these tactics are generally useful, or did you specilize your space strategy to account fo rthe unique possibilities of a 3CC?
Anyhow, I will be interested to see how it turns out for you. Good luck!
Anyhow, I will be interested to see how it turns out for you. Good luck!
Well I tried to use what I learned during the GMin69 which was a space race OCC at monarch/quick.
Without the 3CC restrictions I would probably conquer my continent, because the AI are not really useful for trade at this level.
The beeline to biology is strong though for space race and sometimes diplo, but usually I don't use my capital as NP city.
Placing all national wonders in one city is a strong move, but you are wasting the bureaucracy bonus by not cottaging Madrid. I think that a slightly better decision for a space game was to build Oxford in Madrid and have it cottaged, while building NE, Globe and NP in another city.
Representation wasn't that great in this game. Not being able to found more cities means that we should at least grow our existing cities quickly to work all the tiles ASAP. Representation only gives 3 extra citizens in our cities and requires expensive Pyramids wonder without stone. Monarchy gives unlimited happiness at much lower costs.
Representation wasn't that great in this game. Not being able to found more cities means that we should at least grow our existing cities quickly to work all the tiles ASAP. Representation only gives 3 extra citizens in our cities and requires expensive Pyramids wonder without stone. Monarchy gives unlimited happiness at much lower costs.
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