You're right, I had only 4 towns in Madrid, but it was the only good candidate for the NP. Sevilla had 5 forests when Madrid had 9 very early (2 grew in the SW corner).
The FP with environnmentalism make up a bit for it, but it comes later.
You're very right about Pyr being a waste on that map though. I could have researched democracy while building the NP, which was at the point my number of specialist increased significantly.
Monarchy would have helped more. How did you solve your health problems though? Especially in Barca? I'm allways afraid of the global warming, but I don't know well how it works.
The other idea I had, and will try to replay the map with, is to move the capitalto Barca, and build Oxford there. Cottage Sevilla too. Well, can't move the capital with less than 4 cities, too bad..
You're right, I had only 4 towns in Madrid, but it was the only good candidate for the NP. Sevilla had 5 forests when Madrid had 9 very early (2 grew in the SW corner).
The feature of NP is eliminating unhealthiness, specialists from forests is a small extra bonus. Five more forests is only 5 hpt + 10 cpt (if in enviromentalism), and in the late game only, not that huge IMO. The number of specialists is the same whether you have a farm+specialist or forest + free specialist.
Skurn said:
Monarchy would have helped more. How did you solve your health problems though? Especially in Barca?
Health wasn't as limited as happiness. Corn, wheat give +2 health with granaries, cows, pigs, fish give +1; add +2 from aqueduct that is available early. You get bananas into your cultural boundaries eventually, and after astronomy you can trade for some more resources. A cottage city basicly needs to be size 20, and getting enough health for that wasn't that hard. The GP farm needs a much higher population to have all of the tiles worked, so it only reached its full potential after NP.
Here are the screenshots of my cities at 1000BC and 1AD (copy pasted from the final spoiler, my full story is there).
Screenshots:
Adventurer (warlord) save. I eventually decided to go for a cultural victory, more or less following jesusin's advice, but continuing past his recommended zero-science point to get optics and astronomy so I could eventually invade overseas if necessary -- despite the early lead that Warlord and starting with 3 cities gave me, I figured eventually somebody might catch up because of being limited to 3 cities.
Initially the cities were all building workers. I switched Madrid to a workboat since that was the fastest way to get a food improvement. Seville needed a monument first because its good tiles were in the 2nd ring. Barcelona kept building its worker.
I had to move the science slider down to 70%. Figuring out initial techs was tricky because I had to think about the needs of 3 cities. No early religion: despite the help with happiness, I wanted to switch to somebody else' instead of having my own. Barcelona was going to need something for its worker to do in 15 turns; Agriculture (8t) would be high priority, and would serve as prerequisite for the Animal Husbandry (13t) that the other two cities would need "soon", but Barcelona could also mine (7t) in the first ring, and bronze working (16t); slavery is also good, especially with several cities to whip. I tried to do some calculations, which I'm not good at, to judge. Madrid is 10t from a workboat, at which point it would work a 5F fish and a 2F1H1C capital for a total of (7F-2F+1H)=6 effective hammers per turn, getting that 60H worker in another 10t. Madrid could mine the gems by around the same time -- but it could equally usefully pasture the cows and pigs. So it seemed like Ag > AH > Mine > BW was best.
I wasn't sure what policy to follow regarding exploration, since I wouldn't be planting any more cities and thus finding sites wasn't relevant; the only issue was finding nearby AIs and opening the river route, if such existed, between Barcelona and Madrid. The archers needed to be back home before barbarians showed up but I figured that was a long time away. They also had to be back in time to avoid the happiness penalty from "we're defenceless". Thus I had Seville and Barcelona's archers explore outwards, Madrid's archer explore the region between the cities, and the warrior make a sweep to the south and east.
I recorded the early game in detail, hoping others might be able to comment on where I could have done better, given that I was on Adventurer; I do expect to get some lessons from reading the other postings but expect most of them will be either
on higher difficulties, where the game will play out differently, or
by Adventurers only slightly less clueless than me
Spoilerto 975 BC (turn 78) :
Turn 1 - Mansa! If I knew which tech lines he follows he might be good tech trader, but he's also a potential cultural or spaceship winner. There will be significant cultural pressure on Barcelona from his capital! I'll need cultural buildings there sooner rather than later!
Turn 2: The Seville archer on the gems reveals there is no river connection to Barcelona; maybe a better fogpeeker than me would have known sooner.
Turn 9: Agriculture. The monument finished in Seville and it started a fishing boat (14t) while working 2F grassland, so it will grow to size 2 in 7t.
Turn 10: The workboat finished in Madrid and it started a worker.
Turn 11: Met Surya. My archer exploring to the NW will have to be sure not to go so far as to be cut off by his expansion.
Turn 15: Worker finished in Barcelona and moves to improves the wheat. Start a monument.
Turn 18: Seville expands just as the workboat finishes; start a worker.
Turn 19 (3240 BC): Animal Husbandry. I'd thought my archer could work around Mali territory and get back to Barcelona from the East, but here I find I'm cut off by coast. Time to hurry home!
Turn 20: Barcelona's worker finishes the wheat but can't mine for 4 more turns nor cottage the floodplains for 8. On the theory I could always build over it in the future, I farmed one floodplain. At this point I hadn't yet decided to go for culture, which would make farming the right thing to do with all the floodplains.
Turn 21: Madrid finishes its worker. Before building another, I decided to work on a barracks for a few turns so it could grow. Cows seemed like the first priority, for its mix of food and hammers.
Turn 24: Mining. Madrid reaches size 2 and works the just-finished cows. The worker next turn starts on the horses.
Turn 27: Seville finishes its worker, which improves the pigs. There doesn't seem to be anything better to build than another barracks, since more workers will build faster after some improvements and we don't need more warriors yet. Barcelona finishes the farm and mines the NE riverside hill.
Turn 29: Horses connected; the Madrid worker mines the gems.
Turn 34: Bronze working. Gems connected; worker moves to improve the pigs. Madrid finishes the barracks -- but with BW revealing copper in the next ring for Madrid, and with warriors not being that great as defenders, I decided to build a monument (4 turns) to hurry the expansion (16t at the moment).
Turn 36: I realize that until I build a road from Seville to connect it with Madrid's gems, it is going to hit the happy-cap soon, so I prioritize road-building a bit higher. I decide that after wheel (2t) I'll go for hunting, then Archery so the barracks cities can build defenders, then pottery, then writing (for libraries).
Turn 37: Madrid finishes its monument - 9t to go until the 3rd ring lets me mine the copper. It could build another worker, or try for Stonehenge (11t). It's a waste of hammers given I already have 3 monuments, but I might be able to take it from someone else. In Barcelona, though, the +8 culture would help a lot against the pressure from Timbuktu. At this point it can be done in Barcelona 20t (120H needed, 5 overflow from finishing worker, 6H/t from using a citizen). Had I already decided to go for culture, I would have thought harder about polluting the Great Artist gene pool, but as of 500 AD I got only artists (plus an initial Great Scientist for an academy in the capital).
Turn 38: Wheel.
Turn 39: Barracks done in Seville. Not being able to build archers, I build another worker. That and the one Madrid is working on might be the last ones needed.
Turn 41: Madrid finishes its worker and starts building chariots.
Turn 43: Archery; Seville starts building archers. First chariot finishes in Madrid. It goes to help protect Barcelona, but subsequent ones will go fogbusting. Barcelona expands to allow more mines.
Turn 46: Madrid expands to get the copper, which a worker immediately starts improving.
Turn 47: Pottery done; everybody schedules granaries for after their current builds, and I start Writing, since Barcelona is going to want to build a library ASAP for culture (and a GS) and I need to open borders. Mansa is Hindu and I'd like to acquire his religion. Ivory connects with Seville, which can grow to size 5 next turn. Stonehenge is 2t away, but I can finally whip it (for 2 pop). I might not have needed the whip but didn't want to take the chance.
Turn 51, 1950 BC: We are the largest civilization
Turn 52, 1920 BC: Seville connects to my trade network, so everybody gets +1 happiness from acquiring either gems or ivory. Writing finishes and everyone schedules a library for after their current build. I open borders with both neighbours and start exporing their territory with the warrior, who has been waiting on the east coast for a while.
Turn 54: Whip the library in Seville, so that it will expand onto the marble faster (8t). Masonry finishes. If marble connects soon I figure I ought to be able to beat my opponents to the Oracle, so I research Meditation and Priesthood.
Turn 57: Madrid finishes its library. The Great Wall would help me spy on my enemies but would pollute any potential GS or GA -- so I have to decide whether I'm going for culture, which wants 1GS and the rest GA, or some other victory condition. Pyramids would also pollute the gene pool with GEs. This line of thinking causes me to realize I needed a GP farm, and it should obviously be Barcelona because of all the food - especially flood plains. I decide I really want the 'mids regardless so start building them in Madrid.
Turn 58: Meditation. I whip the library in Barcelona so I can immediately start running two science specialists, and I notice that science slider can go back up to 80%.
Turn 60: Priesthood. I delay starting the Oracle for a bit so I can build with marble. CoL next -- I don't want to switch to Confucianism when I have the possibility of gaining Mansa's Hinduism, but I do want the religion in case I finally commit to a cultural win.
Turn 63, 1480 BC: Seville expands onto the marble. I start quarrying with 3 workers, which will connect the marble next turn.
64: Marble connects; I think about starting the Oracle in Seville but decide it would work out better in Barcelona, which needs the culture points because of pressure from Timbuktu and can probably run enough artist specialists to avoid too much pollution from GPs. I build walls in Seville to increase my apparent strength for the AIs.
Turn 69, 1240 BC: CoL gives me Confucianism, and Great Scientist appears in Barcelona and goes to Madrid. I start researching math and building the Oracle in Barcelona (8t) and hope for a CS slingshot.
Turn 75, 1000 BC: The oracle completes and I take Civil Service. I select the tech path Alphabet (for trading techs) > Aesththetics > Literature (for the National Epic in Barcelona).
Turn 78, BC: The pyramids finish, but I have to wait 2t for Representation because of the recent switch to Bureaucracy.
Hereafter there aren't a lot of major decisions
Spoilerto 500 AD :
Turn 80: Alphabet; I can finally revolt to Representation and let cities grow three more population.
Turn 81: 850 BC: Polytheism
Turn 84: Aesthetics.
Turn 97, 450 BC: Philosophy gets me Taoism, my 2nd religion.
Turn 101, 350 BC: Madrid completes the Hanging Gardens. The Spanish are the most powerful civilization , but I don't expect that to last particularly long.
Turn 103, 330 BC: Paper
Turn 121, 150 AD: The Parthenon finishes in Seville. I realize I forgot Music in the Liberalism race and divert to hope to pick up the Great Artist.
Turn 125, 250 AD: Music, and the great artist.
Turn 129, 350 AD: I with the Liberalism race and take Nationalism as jesusin reommends, but I don't switch to Free Speech as recommended. I want to stay in Bureaucracy for the extra science, so I can research a few more techs, particularly Astronomy: I figure need to be able to conquer overseas rivals if they get to close to some victory condition.
425 AD: I tech Metal Casting on the way to Optics.
Status in 500 AD: I'm one turn away from Machinery but am thinking of switching to Theology for another religion. Is there a way to search (without just scrolling) to see if someone has already founded Christianity? I've slipped in power, so will build some macemen after Machinery.
Spoilerpower :
I've a reasonable amount of territory, but Surya is pretty large
My production varies a lot over time depending on whether Barcelona is working mines to build something or running artists.
Spoilerproduction :
I'm far ahead in culture but not so much in score; I wonder if I might need to cut Surya down a bit? I'm hoping for a totally peaceful game.
I'll be reading the other posts sometime later today or tomorrow and may comment after that.
To find out what religions have been founded when and by whom, click the religious adviser button on top right of the main screen (praying hands), if the religion has been founded by someone you don't have contact with yet it will just say 'Unknown' as the founder. Will still tell you the date it was founded though.
I recorded the early game in detail, hoping others might be able to comment on where I could have done better, given that I was on Adventurer; I do expect to get some lessons from reading the other postings but expect most of them will be either
on higher difficulties, where the game will play out differently, or
by Adventurers only slightly less clueless than me
I don't think that there will be many differences in the way the game will plays out. Not as many as if adventurers have had a free worker, for example.
Please read other spoilers and compare to what you did. Particularly, you write about waiting for a certain tech to build something or make an improvement. Most players prioritized mining to get the commerce from the gems for further researching, while you prioritized hammers and food from AH.
Minor detail: Staying some turns at 0% science and some at 100% will give you more beakers than always 70%.
You have built too many WW, maybe. I would advise not to build any WW till you know your intended VC.
Also what's all that talk about Astronomy? You are preparing to attack an unknown enemy when they are close to victory. But if you win fast enough they won't get close to victory! And by delaying your switch to FS and 100% culture you are giving them time to get close to victory!
I think you have a good game in your hands, with early CS, Academy and Pyramids. Good luck!
One of the things I keep finding is that I've heard various pieces of advice but I don't think to incorporate them into my strategy, and 0/100 is one of them: I "knew" about it (passively) but it wasn't part of my active thinking.
Yes; still too many builder compulsions. In retrospect I realized using Stonehenge for the extra culture in Barcelona probably wasn't appropriate; I think I'd have been under border pressure for a long time but eventually the culture-building phase would have pushed them back. When I read the other postings I'm going to look for whether anyone did have significant border trouble there.
I'm just not as confident as you in being able to get a culture win before somebody else gets near some other kind of win -- and that lack of confidence is obviously making it more likely that I'll have trouble later!
I understand about clearing out a continent for a "normal" game but why is it important for this 3CC? You apparently aren't sure yet whether to go for conquest, which might be the main reason for eliminating these rivals early -- but you lose potential tech trade partners; I got several good trades in with both neighbours. I certainly understand the desirability of taking out Timbuktu early to get the stone, but doesn't eliminating the others just lead to (a) lack of trade (b) lots of barbarians to deal with 'cause you can't plant more cities?
Also, Domination isn't impossible -- LowtherCastle plans on it though I probably couldn't manage it; might try on a replay, though.
However, I soon saw Mali take my stone (I culturally expanded Barcelona much too late, as all the religions I founded went to Seville). Built stonehenge in Barcelona, but that didn't change anything to the situtation,...
In my game Timbuktu was NE (adjacent) of the stone -- no way for me to expand my borders against cultural pressure from the capital! At least not by 500 AD; maybe I'll manage it later, since I'm going for cultural, but that will be too late. Did he settle further away in your game?
Barcelona was interesting (thanks, DynamicSpirit ) -- the obvious GP farm but also the best production city. I was going cultural so needed the farms and rarely worked the mines, but could build stuff rapidly when I needed to. Lost lots of production, though; if somebody had attacked me I'd have had to switch to unit production there, I think.
Hmm. It never occurred to me to make Madrid a GP farm -- didn't seem like it had enough food. Though, if you're going hammer-heavy for conquest or suchlike, Barcelona is needed for hammers not Great People.
Ooh, clever. In an Earth 18 game I noticed Mansa vassalized to me (Spain) the instant I got feudalism, but it never occurred to me to apply it as a deliberate tactic.
Representation wasn't that great in this game. .... Representation only gives 3 extra citizens in our cities and requires expensive Pyramids wonder without stone. Monarchy gives unlimited happiness at much lower costs.
Hmm. I never thought of that! I usually want the 'mids so I can also get Universal Suffrage later before (or without) researching Democracy, but maybe that's not needed in this game.
I've always loved the Space Game, and I'm hoping to have enough time to complete it. If necessary, I plan to maintain good relations and might do a UN or AP victory if time is lacking. So far both Sury and Mansa are Pleased and Friendly with me; along the way I founded Confucianism and the continent is one happy commune so far!
Madrid is aimed to be mostly production, with some cottages. Seville will be a cottage farm. And Barcelona is my GP city.
I headed straight to Alphabet, which was a mistake - simply not enough Techs to trade for, and it was real tough getting any monopoly techs out of the Khmer. Alphabet could have waited.
I did build SH, and waited patiently for a Great Prophet. Not that useful as it turns out since the bulbed techs for a Prophet now include Masonry, so I ended up using the Prophet to build the shrine for Confucianism. Oracle gained me CS (roughly 700 BC, so not very early for this game). I got a 2nd Prophet later, and built the Islamic shrine; plan to spread the 2 religions and increase gold income. I've also gotten 2 GS's along the way for 2 Academies, and a GA for Music (from Madrid's varied GPP capability), getting another free GA used for Divine Right.
The game has played fairly fast, and has been very comfortable; at Prince level the AI have been laggards. I have never built so many WW's before, and that's kind of fun as well. At 500 AD I'm just getting ready to send Caravels out, and am partway into researching Education. I've only played far enough for a Space victory once (and that was in Vanilla CIV) so much of this is new territory for me. The issue will be time - possibly resources.
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In retrospect I realized using Stonehenge for the extra culture in Barcelona probably wasn't appropriate; I think I'd have been under border pressure for a long time but eventually the culture-building phase would have pushed them back. When I read the other postings I'm going to look for whether anyone did have significant border trouble there.
though I probably couldn't manage it; might try on a replay, though.
) -- the obvious GP farm but also the best production city. I was going cultural so needed the farms and rarely worked the mines, but could build stuff rapidly when I needed to. Lost lots of production, though; if somebody had attacked me I'd have had to switch to unit production there, I think.
