[BTS] BOTM 178: Thráin II, Immortal - First Spoiler - 1AD

[Noble Zarkon]

Use this thread to tell us what happened in your game, up to 1AD How did you fare on this map?

Reading Requirements
If you are participating in BOTM 185, then you MUST NOT read this thread unless EITHER

• You have reached at least 1 AD in your game, OR
• You have submitted your entry

Posting Restrictions

• Do not disclose ANY events or information gained post 1 AD.
• Do not reveal your final result if that happened after 1 AD.
• Do not discuss the location of resources that may not show up before 1 AD (Iron is OK, oil is not)
• Do not post any savegame file from the game. Discussions and screenshots are fine but not actual games

 

[georgjorge]

I fell into the Mining trap

Thought long and hard about my strategy, but in the end it came down to this: What self-respecting Dwarf would turn down Mining if it came for free?

So: went for Oracle - Code of Laws early on to salvage my economy. REXed to seven cities, and spread Mining in almost every of them. It currently gives +15 hammers and costs a lot, even with Courthouses everywhere. I just didn't take into account how little there is to build when there are so many hammers around.

My plan was to get by with failgold from early wonders. However, this map + Aggressive AI seems to really slow down the AI. The Great Wall + Pyramids took forever to get built, so it took too long for my gold to arrive. Strangely enough, the AI doesn't also have too many units in their cities, making me wonder what the hell they did build all the time. In fact, I now think that going straight for Iron Working and just making a lot of Swordsmen through chopping + Mining could take them down easily, as in my game they only got around to Bronze Working about 400 BC.

When I saw how weak they were, I decided to go for Construction (instead of Engineering). Just about got there with Pyramids failgold, but now can't even get Iron Working because I'm losing so much gold every turn. I can see Charles is going to get Alphabet (1 AD!) very soon, which is great, so I have some hope of getting Iron Working there, making some Swords and Axes to accompany the 20 or so Catapults which are already in place, and then taking a lot of cities. Conquest is out of the question, as I discovered some AI (Toku?) behind a mountain range.


So: I didn't do well, but it's great fun playing this map - thanks! Strange to have things produced so quickly...

 

[Xcalibrator]

Thanks for the 250 starting gold, NZ. I was very wary of the Mining trap. I may be overdoing it, but my plan is to not hook up any more Mining resources with roads (although I will mine them) until I have Wall Street in place, or very close. And from the test game (thank you georgjorge!), it looked like beelining toward Alphabet so you could build research was probably a good idea. My research went Wheel, AH, Writing (2800 BC), and Alphabet (2280). I also put a lot of effort into fogbusting (with little/no metal and no detour to Archery) so my build order started out with worker and something like 5 warriors, and I (carefully) used the two Mining execs to help. I can see a fringe of red border way out west but haven't met them.

At 1AD I have 8 cities and 38 total pop. Hanging Gardens in 4 turns with 2 settlers due to complete this turn so I'll soon have 10/50. Music and its free Great Artist in 3 turns. I popped a Gt Eng first (keeping him to probably rush Wall St) and settled the next, a Great Sci. Probably should have done an academy, but at least I was running Representation. I got the Oracle (700--Currency, I think?), Mids (550), GLH (425), and GLib (75). I'm first in score with 1100, Spain with 1000 and 10 cities, HRE with 900/6, and England with 800/5. Spain has already settled on "our" side of the mountains up north, and England is working on a couple barb cities up there. I haven't hooked up trade routes with anybody yet but will soon. 2 levees complete--very helpful.
I'll probably go for Space or Domination, or maybe Conquest (with lots of city razing to avoid Dom) as a special quest.

The Steam-powered workers are nice--help speed things up on a rather sloggy map with all the tundra and forests.

 

[georgjorge]

@Xcalibrator: Sounds very nice! I thought I could get Alphabet reasonably early by trading Code of Laws, but as I said, the AI are not very good on this map.

At which point are you planning to attack? Mining is very nice for making lots of units, but Wall Street is still some turns away...

 

[Xcalibrator]

At which point are you planning to attack? Mining is very nice for making lots of units, but Wall Street is still some turns away...

I'm running a rather, um, lean defense. One warrior to garrison each city and fogbust some unsettled corners and a few archers in strategic spots--some are keeping on eye on choke points to look for alarming stacks of units. I'm on good terms with Spain and OK with the others, who are quite far away, so I'm willing to take the risk. I do have some barracks and have hooked up the ivory for ballistas, and could connect metal any time with a road, so I could put together a decent force fairly quickly if necessary. As long as I can keep an adequate military tech advantage (or parity) I'm not too worried, and once I spread Mining I'm golden. If nobody attacks me, I may just leave them alone.

 

[ZPV]

Contender save

I went for a Mining-focussed approach. This meant I knew ahead of time that I'd have loads of production and not much to do with it, so I skipped Bronze Working. The plan was to beeline Currency + CoL on 3-4 cities, at which point Mining Inc will more than pay for itself, and then to expand and try (albeit not very hard) to tech while waiting for all my cities to become productive.

My early tech path was Fishing-Wheel-Pottery-Writing. I wavered a bit, part-researched Mathematics and then backtracked for Masonry, Bronze Working and Archery once the barbs had spearmen I couldn't deal with.

How much did I spread Mining Inc?
I hooked up both silvers in the capital, and infected my second city right away.
I could just about afford it, but in hindsight doing only one of those would have been better. Building the Pyramids (975BC) and getting some failgold was enough to get me through.
Currency came in at 725BC, CoL at 550BC. It also seems obvious in hindsight that building The Oracle for one of these would have sped me up massively.

The AIs finally researched Alphabet at 100BC, and I traded for some of the early techs I was missing. (Iron working + religious techs)

At 1AD I have 7 cities (5 infected with Mining Inc), 38 pop, Literature (GLib to come soon). 70ish bpt research but I'm not sure that's representative.
Mining Inc is at +12 and I'm connecting up more.

The plan now is to fill out my half of the map, research Metal Casting and then Guilds/Banking.
The whole world is Buddhist (apart from the unmet red civ) so diplomacy will be easy, and it's already clear that I'm going to out-tech and out-produce the AIs.

 

[nocho]

I self teched alpha pretty much right out of the gate, going AH, writing, realizing my workers (started with 2 of them) would be out of work, so wheel and then alpha. I think it paid off, being able to build research early under these circumstances seems pretty huge.

At 1AD I'm at 10 cities and 57 pop, score 1475. Hanging Gardens has been built, Mids in the making. When I thought of the Oracle it was already built. Tech is up to CS, MC, construction and monarchy (both traded for), will go towards Music next probably. Cautiously spreading the corps, now in 4 cities.

 

[MarleysGh0st]

The lesson I learned from test game (thanks, georgjorge!) was that while the corporation was a gift, the coal in the stocking truly was a punishment. The coal mines had to be razed to avoid an overwhelming hit to commerce in the early game.

When I started this real game, it was a pleasant discovery that Santa had left a surprise gift: a settled merchant! The extra income from that balanced off some of the coal expense. So, I still built a warrior first (only three turns to build) but I only razed one of the coal mines, keeping the river mine as one of the most productive squares my capital could work.

At 1 AD, I've built the Pyramids (to switch to Rep. and boost my science) and I have six cities. One of my execs was lost early in the game to a wolf. The second exec was pulled back from fog busting after that, but I still haven't used him to spread Mining, Inc outside my capital. Someone beat me to the Oracle, so I'm researching C.S. now.

 

[Kaitzilla]

The Deity start was super fun.
Moving Execs and avoiding wolves was like an intense game of minesweeper.
Wolf spotted, it must have moved the following turn, but where?
It must be in those 4 squares.

And those 2 squares are clean because I have a spawn buster nearby.
20% chance I can avoid both barb Warriors …. success!
Threaded the needle and my starting scout met 3AI for a very nice early teching bonus. (About 20% if all 3AI knew the tech)

Teched Archery early before I realized the barbs only had Warriors.
Ended up capturing a couple nice barb cities with Shock Archers before they could tech Archery.

Self teched Alphabet in 1240BC since nobody had Writing.
Pillaged both Coal after Worker+Settler and avoided settling the 2 Mining Inc. execs and used them as expensive fog busters instead once I scouted out safe spots for them to stand surrounded by 8 forests.
Took LowtherCastle's advice and made my 1st 3 chops the capital deer.
Oracled Currency in 950BC, a true miracle with Isabella in the game.

Put Mining Inc. in a seaside city for TGL and later Colossus.
Final Mining Inc. was placed as close to Isabella as possible for Catapults, Palace, and other high production as needed.

After Code of Laws, struggled to Construction and HBR by 250BC once I realized nobody had metal except me.
Map maker was too kind.

Time for a Golden Age and tremendously-chopped Elepaults.
Aesthetics and Literature will unlock 4 marble-based wonders for me to generate a huge amount of fail gold to win the game.

England has Engineering, so I'm planning to move my capital to the front and give him a nearby spy city full of 8 spies.
Just need to grab the buddhist holy city from Isabella 1st.
That should let me steal Metal Casting + Machinery + Engineering cheap.

1AD

Spoiler :

 

[Noble Zarkon]

After Code of Laws, struggled to Construction and HBR by 250BC once I realized nobody had metal except me.
Map maker was too kind

I thought I had checked that, oops!!

 

[MarleysGh0st]

After Code of Laws, struggled to Construction and HBR by 250BC once I realized nobody had metal except me.

Are you sure about that? Maybe the AI in my game just got lucky with the random resources discovered in mines.

 

[Noble Zarkon]

After Code of Laws, struggled to Construction and HBR by 250BC once I realized nobody had metal except me.
Map maker was too kind.

Checked and nothing to do with me, just AIs being dumb lol (except for one who didn't have any near).

 

[WastinTime]

Spoiler Note to Staff :

I get Alerts for new GotM threads, and when this one was created, I clicked on it. I quickly realized it and got out. No one had posted yet. I just wasn't sure if Big Brother is watching and would know that I was accidentally here before I reached 1 AD.

Wow, the game seems to play very differently for some of us. England in my game is very far back in tech and Kait's has Engineering?!

by 250BC once I realized nobody had metal except me.

My Charlie has Iron very close to his capital, so that must've randomly appeared there or else all ya'all would see the swords and axes that the Holy Romans have in my game.

I managed to plug the hole just West of Center. Kinda like in Kaitzilla's screenshot. That boxed Spain in with only 5 cities. All the 3 AI together have only 18 cities.
I have 13 cities and 60 pop.

 

[WastinTime]

I found a different use for the mining execs, and I even built one.
I decided to infect one city in each of the 3 known AI with Mining for 2 reasons:
1) the obvious +4 in HQ
2) So I could gift unlimited coal, silver, etc to each AI. It takes away the burden of Mining Inc. They give me gold per turn and the main reason.... I get +diplo for sharing resources.

This fits into my grand plan. I created my own challenge. I decided to try to win the game by domination or conquest without ever attacking a single AI unit . I can only attack barbs.

So I oracled Feudalism and I'm ready to try to Peace Vassal everyone. The rules are tricky and all 3 of these AI normally need to be Friendly, but @Kaitzilla and I worked out a way to get that down to Pleased. This should be a breeze since everyone has Buddhism. However, I must be missing something since Izzy still doesn't like me enough to be my vassal. I may just have to get her to Friendly.

I have triple her land, double her power and we share 8+ tile border so we are Land Targets. She also shares borders with the other 2 AI, so I don't know what I'm doing wrong.

 

[Noble Zarkon]

My Charlie has Iron very close to his capital, so that must've randomly appeared there or else all ya'all would see the swords and axes that the Holy Romans have in my game.

No, that's there in every game!!

 

[Kaitzilla]

Checked and nothing to do with me, just AIs being dumb lol (except for one who didn't have any near).

My Charlie has Iron very close to his capital, so that must've randomly appeared there or else all ya'all would see the swords and axes that the Holy Romans have in my game.

No, that's there in every game!!

Woops, sorry all, I was speaking nonsense.
Ya, Charlie had Iron, but he was so small with 3 cities I kind of forgot he existed as more than a speed bump.
England could have had Iron in my game, but the barbs founded a city on top of his supply and I captured that city.

This fits into my grand plan. I created my own challenge. I decided to try to win the game by domination or conquest without ever attacking a single AI unit . I can only attack barbs.

So I oracled Feudalism and I'm ready to try to Peace Vassal everyone. The rules are tricky and all 3 of these AI normally need to be Friendly, but @Kaitzilla and I worked out a way to get that down to Pleased. This should be a breeze since everyone has Buddhism. However, I must be missing something since Izzy still doesn't like me enough to be my vassal. I may just have to get her to Friendly.

I have triple her land, double her power and we share 8+ tile border so we are Land Targets. She also shares borders with the other 2 AI, so I don't know what I'm doing wrong.

Nice to see you again WastinTime.
Whoa, that is an ambitious victory condition!

Land target is a bit odd.
https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/land-target-and-manipulating-the-ai.561148/

Land Target - When a Civ is touching 8 neighbor's land tiles along their border with their own land tiles, the Neighbor Civ will consider them a valid LandTarget. (Diagonal is a valid direction for the purposes of touching. Water tiles don't count at all)

As long as Isabella's neighbors are both touching 8 of her land tiles (with their own land tiles), she should consider them both Land Targets.


The rules for Peace Vassal are crazy to try and satisfy even beyond Power and Land Target status and Land/Pop.
https://forums.civfanatics.com/thre...-know-your-enemy.478563/page-11#post-15467977


The way the hidden diplo modifier works with Peace Vassals means you will likely need to be close to Friendly to get it to work on Izzy.
It gives a + diplo boost based on soldier ratios.
https://forums.civfanatics.com/thre...-know-your-enemy.478563/page-11#post-15468142

Attitude Modifier = Floor (3 * Land_Target_AI_Power / Peace_Vassal_AI_Power) - 2

So if you are +3 Pleased with Isabella, you likely won't secretly get to +10 Friendly unless both her neighbors are Land Targets who have vastly stronger armies.
Both of them having twice as many soldiers as Izzy should give two +4 diplo bonuses taking +3 Pleased up to +11 Friendly.

+8 Pleased can pretty easily get bumped up to +10 Friendly though.
Both AI having 10% stronger armies gives 1+1=+2 diplo.

I can kind of see your strategy.
If you can Peace Vassal Isabella and then pump up her military, the other 2 neighbors might Peace Vassal if you can reach 3.6 their power (or 1.8 if you can become a Land Target for them)