BOTM 27 Final Spoiler

Hi Ash88,
I'm new to CivIV too and found this game very challenging as well, and experienced some of the same problems you did.
Re:
" ...everyone else was Buddhist. I waited for a long while to have one of my cities convert so I could adopt it, but when it didnt happen I converted to Hinduism. I should have remained at nothing indefinately."

I've found that while remaining at no-state-religion indefinately helps, it's no guarantee that someone like Napoleon won't declare war anyway. Not sure what to do about that.

As for waiting for my cities to convert to the AIs' religions I think it only works for me if I allow Open Borders to the AIs so they can send in their missionaries (and it seemed like sometimes it spreads when there isn't any religion in a city and it's connected via roads and rivers to the AI cities with religion?)
 
(and it seemed like sometimes it spreads when there isn't any religion in a city and it's connected via roads and rivers to the AI cities with religion?)

Religion spreads without missionaries. Don't know if there is a lower probability if you have closed borders.
If everyone else is Buddhist it I would open borders to the AI and if the first city gets Buddhism immediately convert. Soon after that probably everyone is pleased and DOWs are unlikely.
 
8) Prioritize Iron when you don't find Copper. I was still building Archers when the Axeman barbos arrived. That was dumb.

Chariots are much better against axes (+100% attack bonus). Only spears are a problem for the war chariots. All other barbs stand no chance against the war chariots. I saw no barb spear in this game.
There must really be a special situation in a game that I would prioritize IW in a game - maybe for a rush - otherwise it will not speed up empire development or research. And mostly you could trade it easily from the AI.

Just my 2 cents :)
 
Chariots are much better against axes (+100% attack bonus). Only spears are a problem for the war chariots. All other barbs stand no chance against the war chariots. I saw no barb spear in this game. (my emphasis added)
If I were you, I'd go out and buy a lottery ticket tonight while your luck is running high. :mischief: I saw plenty of Barbarian Spearmen in my game :cry: even lost a city defended by a Combat III promoted War Chariot to a Barb Spearman :mad: (I used the WC to escort the Settler and was attacked before I could get any Archers there - my mistake :( )

It is interesting how the same game can produce different sets of Barbarian attackers. Anyone have any idea why that happens? :confused:
 
Yeah, I might add that in my game I was blessed with 1) Never seeing a barb spear, and 2) never having the AI declare war on me (though I declared on Mao, on my own terms).

I'm sure 1) was pure luck, and while I did everything in my power to minimise the risk of 2) I was lucky in that Peter and Nappy shared a religion which spread to me, so Mao became enemy #1.
 
Incomplete/Retired in 1470AD, with multiple Mao and Nappy stacks inbound.

Why so much hate about the Deer distribution? If you sent your warrior eastwards, and saw there was no deer there, why did you settle there then?

If you (unlikely) sent him west, you found deer, so you settle there.

So wheres the big logic gap in map design? I can't see it. Nice hard map, if you settled east you had better chance at Iron anyways. (and I'm still pissed at him of the grumpy pink tie growling at me in the first spoiler - what, is it winter in the northen hemisphere? ;))

I settled 1S of the Dye, and put a farm on the dye. Of course in writing this, I realised I forgot to overwrite that farm with a plantation, but hey, I was probably more worried about beating knights, maces, trebs and pikemen with axes and elephants to notice in game.

And Feb is a short month, so even if we all got ganked (excpet Srad and Duckweed, lol), its almost BotM28 time, woooohoooo!
 
Not sure. Sometimes difficult level drops back to warlords if I remember correctly. Maybe there is some kind of pattern which helps to determine the level of the upcoming game. ;)
 
I suspect it is loosely related to the difficulty level of the GOTM and WOTM in the same timeframe. As these are on the low side currently, I'd bet my virtual coins in an upcoming Deity BOTM. :)

Back on topic, no religious wins reported for this game yet? I got one myself but I find it too cheesy to deserve a proper spoiler.
 
I suspect it is loosely related to the difficulty level of the GOTM and WOTM in the same timeframe. As these are on the low side currently, I'd bet my virtual coins in an upcoming Deity BOTM. :)

You're on the right lines :). We do do a fair bit of planning to try to ensure that as far as possible there is always at least one easy-ish game and at least one difficult-ish game running at any given time, while keeping to an approximate sawtooth pattern so the difficulties don't come completely randomly.
 
Finally got backstabbed by pleased Nap while wiping Peter as he wanted another vassal. This cost me 20 turns of pain with 40-unit stacks skirmishes, so when arriving at peace resolution I decided not to milk (1 tech away from Bio, though). Good game, thanx to the staff.

Well done, Duckweed! :king:
 
I had no time to play this month, but luckily I do find some time to write down this essay on my game.

Victory condition aim: Cultural. Backup plan, I have none.

Although Hatshepsut has nice warchariots, I decided to go for cultural due to my restricted time availability. I settled in a stupid spot because if I had moved one spot further I would have had an extra deer. Too bad.
Exploring does go well and to the west I find a nice place for a great person farm. I build that city very quickly and started spamming a few cottages in my capital while I explore. I spot a nice bit of land for a third city to the north and I go for it immediately. I decide that I should tech priesthood and then focus on chopping cultural buildings.
Then hazards start to arise. Barbarians! I have seen a few and managed to fend them off, but now I cannot believe it, they are everywhere and they are pushing into my city borders. How strange, even with only 3 cities they seem to be focused on me solely. I chop warriors due to lack of archery. How I regret not taking it in time.
Must survive, must survive.... two cities under attack by barbarians, an archer vs a sole warrior and somehow I seem to make it out okay from that battle. Then... rest.... but how come?

I manage to link up my third city to my capital and find that I am in a tight spot... all AIs are surrounding me and my focus on expanding were lost to the barbarian uprisings (though these were not events). I decide to stick to 3 towns to ensure a good happiness and research rate. After all, I am only doing cultural and I am doing well at teching.
I finally decided to go for animal husbandry and sure enough... horses everywhere in my third city. If only I would have gone for conquest....
Teching is relatively okay and with godspeed I went for priesthood and am currently chopping the oracle. I chop and chop and yes! I get it! But no!!!!! I did not pay any attention to my teching. Where I had already begun to focus on a religion by researching Code of Laws I forgot to pick up a few good techs along the way so my oracle bonus can only be a cheap tech. I pick monarchy... at least it will keep my cities happy. I made such mistakes around this time.

Teching further I do get the holy city of Confucianism. Well, that is at least something. I start to build some decent cultural buildings in my cities, but I am overtaken in teching towards certain goals such as christianity. I do try to get the Apostothelic Palace, but alas, when I bulb Theology I believe the turn afterwards the AP has been built. Rats...
I go for other techs. Noone techs for Aesthetics and further. I get it easily and start my way to literature. I remember building the Swedish Pagoda (yeah yeah, I know) and I get my act together chopping the Great Library and the Sistine Chapel. At least some parts in the cultural aim are going well up until now.....
NOT! Eventhough I kept everyone pleased, Napoleon decided to end my life. He declares (how did I miss that) and goes after one of my cultural cities. Mao decides to join in and the both of them is just a little too much. I cannot keep one of my cities and it falls to Napoleon. Then, 1 turn later, Peter, head of the AP calls a vote for peace.... and of course, peace is obtained.
Now what... I was dumb to only build 2 cities and my holy city is now gone. It had the shrine in it and the sistine chapel. How can I manage to get up ahead again? I decide to gamble and I build a new town on the overlap of my great person farm and my previously owned cultural city. When I settle the city it already has a culture of ~4700 in the plot and with a few buildings I try to build up the culture pressure on my previous holy city. It doesn't work, Napoleon is better at it, but I push with 1 artist bomb at 5000 culture, then another artist bomb... but Napoleon prevails eventhough almost all of the surrounding land is now again culturally mine. How does he do that? artist specialists?
I still have culture in sight and have to switch to a full cultural effort, leaving teching to the others. They pull ahead, but I see another opportunity rising. Peter decides to put out AP Religious Victory votes. I try to latch on, he is the main voter so if Ican get his votes and add them to mine I will win. I befriend him, or at least try to... He's pleased, going towards friendly I hope upon switching to his civics and trading some more with him (supplying resources for one).
Yeah right! Stupid Peter who is sharing my religion (go +6 diplomacy) decides to switch to free religion. Goodbye hopes for friendliness, goodbye votes. No other way to do it but culture now. I still befriend Peter as well as I can, but I cannot bribe him back towards a religion because I have nothing to trade. Culturally I do grow, but not fast enough. I see a Space Program popping up already, Mao.
Diplomacy is my only hope, but Peter seems to prefer Mao now. And of course, Napoleon seems to prefer war..... so I get it for the second time, but now against full impossible odds. Warriors and Longbowmen vs Artillery... I won't lose that... except that those Infantry hurt a lot more. Death is not even quick. It still takes around 6 turns, and this time no Peace vote pops up and the Religious Victory vote I do not win.

Serves me right for poor planning. I thought I had it down.
Loss at 1785AD, 267 turns, 862 Base score, 1550 Funeral Score, 1:57:54 time played.
 
1828 diplo loss to Peter, with his spaceship in mid-flight.

Lost my second city to barbs and never really recovered. Somehow kept everyone pleased enough that no-one DoW'ed me.

Tough map. Deity next up will be tougher no doubt.
 
The Game Rules
I decided to play this game using an Erkon-style Kill 'Em All type of approach.

The rules that I set out for myself were simple:
1. Similar to an Always War game, I must declare war on an AI shortly after meeting them. I was allowed to delay a few turns in order to hunt for a Worker to steal, but if I took my time in doing so, I was required to simply declare war on said AI.
2. I must always remain at war with at least one AI until the end.
3. I am not allowed to take a vassal and I am not allowed to retire--elimination (of them or me) must be utter and complete.


Capital Location
I had planned to settled 1S of the Gold. That way, I would get the Gold, the Deer, at least a few Grassland River squares, and a chance at other Resources in the fat cross. The map layout seemed to scream for doing so, with enough Forests being missing (removed by DynamicSpirit?) in order to efficiently move and thus settle there on Turn 2. I was not concerned about losing the Dye Resource as one would need to research down two completely differing tech paths--Iron Working and Calendar--just to use it. Since we were not Financial, I did not see that settling on the Dye was really going to be much of a boon. Since I did not plan to get to Levees (either I'd be dead or the AI would be before then) and since we were guaranteed to have plenty of health from Forests due to the map type, settling away from the River was not a concern for me.

With my Settler first moving 1S then 1W on Turn 0, I got to see that there was no Deer on the square to the 1SE + 1S of the Settler's starting location, which would have been the only thing that would have made me settle in place on Turn 1.

However, I ended up changing my mind and settled 1SE of the Gold instead of 1S of the Gold, after seeing the additional Deer available by way of the Warrior. In hindsight, I should have stuck with my original plan, as I missed out on using a Corn Resource to the west that I never ended up using in any city's fat cross.


Further Cities
I built Settlers reasonably quickly and went for early Pottery. As a result, I only had Warriors and it took me about 24 turns between completing my third Settler and actually finding a spot safe to settle him. As it was, a Warrior wasn't enough to defend the Settler (fighting Barbs every couple of moves and having to stop and heal for several turns after each fight doesn't really let you move very far). Thus, I had to wait until I had built a couple of War Chariots before I felt safe to settle city 3.


Early War
In the meantime, I was at war with Russia and China, having met them first. It wasn't until later that I found France and summarily declared war on the French. By that time, Napoleon had a Chariot, but with a Woodsman I promo on my Warrior from Barb Animals, Napoleon was loathe to use the Chariot against me. Therefore, I was able to disconnect his trade routes between cities, cutting off his trade route connections and reducing Chariot production to one city.

I tried to keep the AIs as oppressed as possible as soon as I got War Chariots out. Worker harassment and pillaging were the words of the day.


The Oppressed AIs Manage to Get the Upper Hand
Eventually, though, Napoleon managed to build some Spears, Axes, and Swords. I couldn't figure out why. The other AI didn't have any Copper or Iron to trade to him, and I couldn't see Copper (I had researched Bronze Working) or a Mine in Napoleon's territory that offered more Hammers than normal (i.e. an Iron Mine).

As a result, I lost my strategic advantage and had to send too many War Chariots to choke Napoleon, allowing Mao to hook up some Copper and get Spears and allowing Peter to hook up his Horse and get Chariots.

Much later in the game, when I took Iron Working from Mao for a 10-turn peace offering, I found that Napoleon had settled on an Iron Resource, even though it meant that this same city with a Fish Resource was not placed on the Coast. It is normal to see AI settle one square away from the Coast (silly AI, :lol:) but not so when they have a Seafood Resource. It is also rare for the AI to settle on a Resource.

That city really smells of being hand-crafted, with the placement of Resources being such that Napoleon "had no choice" in his programming but to settle on the Iron. I couldn't even tell by looking at the city's centre square that there was Iron there, as the Iron was located on a Grassland square instead of a Plains square, so there was no bonus Hammer for Napoleon to get and thus no bonus Hammer for me to see. Once Napoleon had Sailing, all of the pillaging in the world wasn't going to cut off his Iron-based unit production, as he'd settled all of his cities on the same river (also a suspicious situation, that Napoleon had one long river connecting his capital to this seemingly engineered Iron site). As it was, this one simple city turned an easy rout of War Chariots vs Archers into a long, drawn-out slugfest.


Poor Research Rate
It took ages to research anything, as I was fielding so many units that I could barely maintain a positive tech rate. After researching Alphabet, 98% of my subsequent turns were researching at a 0% Science Rate, as all of my money went to upkeep costs. I relied on the odd Scientist Specialist for my Research, but was mostly technologically backwards compared to a regular game.


Negative Income and Strikes
Once I started capturing cities, the economical situation only got worse. Several times, I had to throw away entire stacks of units just to kill a couple of AI units, say, Swordsmen defending in a Forest, just to balance my budget--had I not "used up" said units, they would have been lost to a Strike anyway, having dealt ZERO damage (a disbanded unit can't hurt anyone).


Further Techs
Currency was a life-saver, even if it didn't come until 500 AD. In fact, it wasn't until 1210 AD that I picked up Civil Service.


The Persistent AI
I had been hoping to get a Conquest Victory, but the AI proved to be resilient. Any time that I let up on an AI, they massively expanded and rebuilt a huge army.

Peter regrew his empire from 2 cities to 6 cities, while for every city of Napoleon's that I captured or razed, he managed to build another one.


The Tide Turns
The turning point was when I lost about 15 units in a struggle to take China's last city and finished Mao off in 920 AD. I was then better able to focus my military distribution, balancing units on the frontlines between the two remaining AI.

In 1230 AD, Russia was eliminated and in 1250 AD, France was no more.


A Disappointing End-game Movie
Although I had achieved a complete Conquest of my rivals, due to some inconsistencies in the way that borders expand when a city is captured and a Civ is still alive versus when a city is captured at the time of a Civ being eliminated, my borders expanded unexpectedly past the Domination Land limit.

Domination trumps Conquest in terms of tie-breaking when you win both Victory Conditions on the same turn, since you aren't allowed multiple Victory Types in Civ4, so I was awarded a Domination Victory. There's nothing wrong with that fact, but it still feels unsatisfying--I really felt that after living up to my self-imposed Kill 'Em All rules, I deserved to see the Conquest end-game movie, which I think is a lot more exciting than seeing a flag being the instigator of a planet-wide red-colouring action.


Other Comments
I liked the distribution of the occasionally-placed Jungles. If one were to abuse Forest chopping to a high degree, one would risk the Jungles spreading and taking over the previously Forested land. However, there also weren't huge tracts of Jungle, which would have taken away from the feeling of massive tracts of Forested land being anywhere that you settle. So, there was good map balance this way--players could chop some, but those who chose to chop excessively would be punished for doing so.

There weren't all that many different Resource types on the map, or at least it felt that way. No Fur and no Whales (at least that I could see) made Markets far less efficient in terms of Happiness benefit. I also don't remember seeing any Incense. I was really surprised not to see Fur on such a heavily-Forested map, as you normally expect to find Fur Resources near the poles in a heavily-Forested area. Still, at least we were given the Forge Trio--Gold, Gems, and Silver, so, even though I didn't get to Metal Casting in my game, most people could probably make up for missing happiness with some Forges.

I love War Chariots. Other than Immortals and Quechuas, I don't think that I have a more favourite Protective-leader-bashing early-game unit. I laughed whenever Mao would promote his Archers to Drill III, as the War Chariots were immune to first strikes, no matter how many Drill promos he assigned to his Archers.
 
- but what a struggle! :mad:

Founded Christianity in 525bc, build AP in 225bc, spread Christianity to everyone in 100bc.
I choose Peter as my friend, spread Christianity to a few more of his cities and tried to make him happy, and here things started to go wrong. :(
I figured (guessed) I needed Peter at +8 for him to vote for me, so I had to work on our trade-relations

How do you get these guys to like you enough and how much is enough? :crazyeye:

First vote around 50AD our borders sparked too much tension, and the same turn Mao and Napy declared war! :eek:

I was prepared with a bunch of archers, and the funny thing was, Napy kept lurking around in the woods with his large stacks, without attacking or pillaging at all for a very long time. :p

The years went by and Peter and I grew a bit more fond of each other :love: , and after a few more votes everything was set up.
Then he petrayed me on the turn of the election and adopted Free Religion, and my +3 for sharing his religion was gone. :trouble:

Well he was my only friend so I had to stick with him and a few turns later I adopted Bureaucracy, his favourite civic and we were best buddies again when the vote came up, and guess what? 50 turns had passed and I got elected Resident of the AP :wallbash:

OK ten more turns to Victory - in my dreams!!!

Meanwhile the warfare had put me down to Thebes as my only city and when the vote came up Pete and I didn't have enough votes. :lol:

Making peace, founding more cities and gifting Peter a lot of Christian missionaries finally did the job 10 (or was it 20 or 30 or...?) years later. :cry:


And this brings me back to my question:
How do you get these guys to like you enough and how much is enough? :crazyeye:
 
The years went by and Peter and I grew a bit more fond of each other, and after a few more votes everything was set up.
Then he petrayed me on the turn of the election and adopted Free Religion, and my +3 for sharing his religion was gone.

Well he was my only friend so I had to stick with him and a few turns later I adopted Bureaucracy, his favourite civic and we were best buddies again when the vote came up, and guess what? 50 turns had passed and I got elected Resident of the AP

OK ten more turns to Victory - in my dreams!!!

Meanwhile the warfare had put me down to Thebes as my only city and when the vote came up Pete and I didn't have enough votes.

Making peace, founding more cities and gifting Peter a lot of Christian missionaries finally did the job 10 (or was it 20 or 30 or...?) years later.

And this brings me back to my question:
How do you get these guys to like you enough and how much is enough?
Looks like we were in the same boat for most of the game. I went pretty defensive in my game too and was promptly declared by Mao and Napoleon too. Then when Peter seemed happy and a Religious Victory was at hand, he switched to Free Religion.
I've tried everything to like me again, but he just kept voting for himself. How did you ever get him to like you enough to have him vote for you?
And related to your question, how do we know when we've gotten them friendly enough (sometimes the term friendly still doesn't mean they'll vote for you).
 
zamint3, could you have switched into Bureaucracy earlier? Shared civics bonuses are usually the easiest to get (though some AIs don't rate them very highly - I don't remember if Peter's one of them)
 
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