BOTM 27 First Spoiler

[DynamicSpirit]

BOTM 27 First Spoiler

Reading Requirements

Stop! If you are participating in BOTM 27 then you MUST NOT read this thread unless EITHER

• You have reached at least 500 AD in your game, OR
• You have submitted your entry

Posting Restrictions

• Please do not discuss anything that happened after 500 AD,
• Please do not divulge your final result if that happened after 500 AD.
• Please do not discuss the location of late game resources (coal/oil/aluminium/uranium)

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Just to kick off the discussion with a few questions...

This was an unusual game both because of the low numbers of AI and because arboria is quite an unusual map in terms of terrain types - loads of forests and grassland, but less variety in the types of resources available. How did that change your strategy?

What did you do with the dye? Several people in the pregame were talking about settling on it, which surprised me because I think a worked dye tile is pretty good for commerce (albeit only after calendar).

How many cities did you found in the early game? On immortal level you are faced with high city maintenance costs that quickly kill your science after the first couple of cities, but on the other hand if you don't grab the land you can be sure an AI will. What about warring? Fewer AIs would mean that a couple of early wars could wipe out any chance for tech trading, but on the other hand if you don't attack them early they'll grow huge. How did you cope with those dilemmas, with all the trees hampering your UU's mobility?

 

[PutCashIn]

I have stoped for a pause and think at 1ad, do I *have* to play to 500ad befor posting screenies etc here?

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Yes you do. And more to the point, you have to play to 500AD (unless your game is over before then) before you READ this thread!!!!

Luckily noone has posted anything yet, so your game hasn't been spoiled.

 

[Mutineer]

Well, I lost to religious victory of Russia. Which reveal a few bugs or extremely strange features.

First, Resident was able to win even not been a full member.
Resident did not lost resident status when not full member.
I admit I did not play BTS mach, but it is very strange to see victory screen with Buddhist AP when Russia is in Monotheism as state religion.

 

[adrianj]

BOTM27 - Contender Save

Immortal level is tough. Normal game speed makes it tougher. Only 3 AI opponents that will grow big an powerful - that's tough. Is Hatshepsut tough enough? Am I? Tough is one of those words where if you say it often enough it sounds weird. As for how it is written...

I would dearly like some sort of military victory for this game - really take it to those AI. Copper is fairly rare on this map type (Arboria) so maybe the war chariots will get a good turn, but I'm not sure I'll dare attack anyone that early. Chances are I'll just ruin my economy and allow another AI to grow larger in its place. So to start with I'll be playing a very balanced and peaceful game with military in mind - but in the end I'll take whatever I can get.

*** Session 1: 4000 BC -> 1160 BC ***

Warrior moves 1SW, shows a couple of deer. Settler moves 1S (only a forest there) and then onto the dyes - I'm gambling that there will also be another deer or two up in the NW. Settling on turn 1 shows that I've just missed an extra deer to the NW. Annoying!

First tech is Hunting followed by AH - I want to have chariots for barb defense at least. First builds are a worker -> warrior -> barracks. I am suitably nervous about barbs.

Turns out there are a whole host of deer to the SW - could make for a good GP Farm. There's deer freakin everywhere actually. And Horses in Thebes BFC - reward! Can't build a pasture without chopping the forest though - so next techs Mining -> BW.

By 3160 BC I've met the opponents - Peter, Mao and Napoleon. Wow, not exactly pushovers or entirely predictable. Peter has a useful early favourite civic (Bureau) so I might make friends with him, but we'll see how the religion situation starts out.

I lost my warrior to a bear defending at 79% odds, so my exploring takes a hit. I want chariots fast.

First settler is built in 2000 BC, and city is founded in 1880 BC to the NW claiming deer, corn and more hroses. My war chariots are eyeing up a barb city with gems to the SE, which I own in 1640 BC.

In 1200 BC I've learnt alphabet - the others don't yet have Writing so I pick up fishing, mysticism, archery and polytheism for pretty cheap. In 1160 I've founded a 4th city claiming a whole bunch of deer to the SW.

*** Sesion 2: 1160 BC -> 500 BC ***

I'm 2 turns from researching Priesthood, which only Nappy knows. So I'm hoping I can still claim the Oracle if I chop/whip it.

Nappy is spreading his religion, buddhism - and I plan to give it to Peter as well so we can all be buddies lined up against Mao. That suits me.

In 750 BC I found a 5th city to the NE of Thebes. I aimed to have a few hills near this city so it can be a production city.

In 500 BC I have 5 cities, total population of 20, a settler en route to city #6. I've started teching Civil Service.

*** Session 3: 500 BC -> 1 AD ***

I'm hoping someone will research Monarchy for me. I'm stockpiling the warriors slowly ready for Hered. Rule.

In 200 BC I have an unwanted great prophet. I could bulb Theology, but instead opt for a golden age - the aim is to bring me into Civil Service and Monarchy and really get this economy going.

In 1 AD I am 1 turn away from learning Civil Service. I have 6 cities, and population of 35.

*** Session 4: 1 AD -> 500 AD ***

Not a lot interesting happening here. I learn Civil Service, switch to Bureau. I trade it to Peter and bribe him in as well. I learn Monarchy and switch to HeredRule, and start growing my cities. I have only 6 cities but I'm researching quite efficiently with many scientists under Caste System, and I'm a pacifist, having bulbed Philo.

By 500 AD I'm 3 turns away from being hopefully first to Music. I still have 6 cities, but pop is now 67. The GP Farm is building the Great Library with my Literature monopoly and it should be pretty awesome.

The plan from here is to get to Rifles and Cannon ASAP, and take over the world, starting with the Chinese who nobody likes.

 

[adrianj]

Well, I lost to religious victory of Russia. Which reveal a few bugs or extremely strange features.

First, Resident was able to win even not been a full member.
Resident did not lost resident status when not full member.
I admit I did not play BTS mach, but it is very strange to see victory screen with Buddhist AP when Russia is in Monotheism as state religion.

That sounds like pretty bad luck Those 'features' you mention are exactly the ones that human players tend to exploit when going for Religious victories themselves. Specifically, you can be voted for and be resident if you own the Apostolic Palace - despite not actually using the required religion.

 

[RD-BH]

3960 BC Settled on colorful plants. I'm gonna call 'em "Dye". Makin' some coin from 'em, too! (we'll see if it's enough for a new religion)
... Found some color downstream and began panning for gold.
... Found quartz in the hills, time to raise a child and put him to work in my gold mine.
... The children are growing so fast. They been hunting deer locally. We are eating well.

2360 BC Founded a couple religions to increase my influence with my neighbors, Peter and Mao.
... Ran into some barbarian warriors northeast of town, the battle was brief but fierce. They said some man, name of Napolean, was driving them southwest. I'm gonna have to keep an eye out for him; he sounds like trouble. I hope these battles with the barbs don't continue.

2960 BC I saw the neighbors whipping their workers. With neighbors like that gonna build a barracks and train for the inevitable.
... Hmm, seems the workers like the whip, so I have adopted slavery, also.
... The children are happy to be out of the mines finally, and they are talking about moving out of town.

1480 BC My neighbor Peter just can't stand my Obelisk, so he's gone and built one 'bout ten times bigger. He calls it Stonehenge. I think he's the one unhinged.

1200 BC This competition is out of control. Mao saw that thar ring of stones Peter put up and figured he could do better. So he started buildin' this here wall right around his whole place! Strangest thing I ever done saw. Well, Peter wasn't having any of it so he went a' whippin' his people 'til they had an even bigger wall up. Mao got so depressed he tore his wall down and refused to build it anymore. I hear tell he wrote the loss off on his insurance and made a bundle of coin.
... Something ain't right with my new child ... he's havin' visions and claims to be a messenger from heaven. I've changed his name to St. Augustine, it seemed to fit him, tho' I'll prolly just call him August. Thebes and Memphis tease him to no end, but I think Thebes is starting to admire August for takin' the teasin's so well.

1000 BC My boy, Thebes, went and founded a city just over the mountains to the east. Says he's gonna teach people to be great like his brother, August.
... Memphis moved to the northeast, and settled along a river just north of an historical marker commemorating the first battle of "The Barbarian Wars", you know the one I'm talkin' 'bout.

725 BC Somethings wrong with Peter. He keeps sendin' these fellows in cloaks to watch everything I do. It's startin' to creep me out. On the other hand, I was talkin' to Mao and he decided my religion was a good idea and converted.

575 BC Have organized all these religions and might finally get some use out of 'em. The builders seem excited anyways.

525 BC Peter has gone and done it again. Now there's a huge man-made stone mountain sticking up over his wall. The man is definitely compensating for somethin'.
... Peter was jealous of August and started callin' one of his children Ananda and claiming they are the next great prophet. He went on braggin' how Ananda was gonna found some new religion. That's silly, August founded that thar' religion more than a week ago. Peter got quiet for a bit ... then shouted that Ananda had started a golden age and he'd show me what's what.
... Turns out, one of Peter's cloaked fellows started that golden age and convinced Ananda to take all the credit ... that fellow is up to no good! I'm gonna call him "Spy".
500 BC Peter done went and declared hisself a Monarch, whatever that is. Funny thing is ... his people seem to really like it. I might have to look into it a bit more.

425 BC Napolean declares war on me and mine. I didn't do nuttin' to the lunatic!
... He must have run out of barbs to kill. Now he runs about calling hisself "The State"! Who calls themselves such a silly thing? I guess Peter ain't the only one unhinged.
... Nappy says "Down with religion!", and is pushin' something he calls science. He says it's gonna change the world (whether they want to change or not). Just sounds like another religion to me. Bunch of fanatics!

200 BC Memphis has been captured by Nappy! That warmonger is gonna be the death of me!
... Now, Peter and Mao are both joinin' this science thing Nappy started! I don't see the value of it myself. They just laughed and called me "backwards".

1 AD Dragonforge captured, I'm fleeing to Thebes' place. The French army is breathing down my back. Nappy won't even return my calls!
... Peter has decided I might be right after all, and he has joined my religion. He just can't stop building these huge buildings. He calls 'em Wonders. I "wonder" if he'll ever be happy. He needs to settle down and stop changing his mind all the time.

325 AD Thebes has convinced me to go fanatical, but it just ain't my style. Seems more desperate than anything else, but I'll do it to please my last surviving child.
... I converted to Nappy's religion, but he can't be placated. Anyhow, this put Peter off and he's gone and founded his own religion and coverted to it. I told you, he ain't never gonna be happy, always gotta be changin' things around.

425 AD I can't talk much longer. A column of troops just came over the hill. I've never seen a line of men so long. The drums ... the drums just keep beating and the line of men just keep pushing forward. We are slaughtering them by the hundreds but they just keep coming ... marching over their own dead! They seem mindless automotons enthralled by Nappy's promises of "enlightening" the world. If I survive this, I don't think I'll ever be the same again. So much never ending carnage. Oh, the inhumanity!!! If this is "enlightenment", then I would rather be dead.

[editor's note:
There are no further entries in this blood soaked journal found on the historical battlegrounds outside New Paris.
... The State is mother,
... The State is father.
:end_note]

 

[shyuhe]

I settled on the dye to start. I expanded to about 6 cities pretty fast, blocking off the prime land (and resources around). I didn't go for any of the early wonders though.

When I found out who the neighbors were, I changed from any hopes of a peaceful victory to a military one. Since all three leaders will declare at pleased, I didn't want to risk a late game screw up. I did manage to settle in a way to deny Peter metal, but it really screwed my economy so I ended up gifting him my resource stealing city. At least it pushed him to friendly. If I had played more aggressively from the start, I'm pretty sure I could have blocked off the entire south of the continent while chariot rushing Peter Maybe I'll try it on a shadow for fun.

Oh and religious strife is not so much fun. Nappy got Buddhism, Mao got Hinduism. Peter got Judaism very late but thankfully Nappy was in full missionary spam mode and converted him Buddhist before Peter could think about adopting a different religion.

 

[kcd_swede]

Pre-game planning:

Spoiler :

Victory condition choice - Few AI and single landmass leads me to consider religious victory or conquest/domination type victories. Since the HoF Challenge Series has forced me to improve mostly in the area of military prowess, I am inclined to test out and see how much better I’ve actually gotten.

War considerations - War Chariot is one of the best rush units there is. One tech away from enablement, and stronger than an axeman since it can withdraw from combat, and can move 2 spaces which is a definite benefit as AI should be fairly distant. It eats axemen and archers alike, but is very vulnerable to spears, and gets no defensive bonuses so is not good for holding gains. On Arboria map its movement rate advantage will be lost, since most terrain will be forest/jungle. The key will be to get a lot of them before the AI get their metals hooked up. The only way to get good fast production will be to get to bronze-working, though. Catch -22 in the tech tree.

Settling – Arboria will have very poor commerce, at least until trees are cleared. AI should tech slowly as they are slow to chop. Gold will be a big advantage in gaining the preferred tech (AH/Mining/BW) in time to make a war chariot rush feasible. Settle 1S of the dye to take gold, and later use river tiles for commerce bonus.

Tech path: Always want to be able to improve your best tiles first and fast. That means first tech will be hunting, (for deer camp) which although outside the necessary rush techs will speed up Animal Husbandry a bit, but most importantly speed up pop growth and production asap. The horses I won’t need until the actual war chariot production begins (after a worker, some warriors for growth/garrison/scouting, a settler to take horse site or metal, another worker). Therefore, I try to time AH with first settler production. So it is to be Hunting>Mining (gold!)>BW(chop+whip)>AH. Trying to stay flexible, if I get copper I can start axes and decide whether some turns on a rush could be saved by doing axe rush instead of war chariot rush. Of course, if there is nobody within rush distance, plan (B) is to switch to settler spamming mode.

Economy: Is going to suck. Early, the gold will make things look very good, but experience shows that once I get to three or four cities and 6-8 units in foreign soil the research slider will drop to the bottom. That means specialist economy, at least in the near-term when (a) specialist economy is at its strongest, and (b) commerce will be hard to come by. That indicates Writing should be next tech on the list (preceded by Pottery to speed up and improve whipability), to enable sci specialists. It also puts a premium on Pyramids and GLib, and even Parthenon. Should be able to get some of that as there aren’t so many AI to compete for them, but have to wait and see if they are Ind or are granted stone/marble that I lack then the wonders can wait. With luck, the AI will waste time building these for me instead of defenses against me! Any wonder production will be made from wood, surely, so that I’ll want Mathematics (for chopping bonus) after Writing – but should tech something else (Masonry for Pyramids on way to Constr for cats)- since Mathematics can most quickly be obtained by bulbing the first GScientist. But first priority is rush to cripple at least one AI, so Oracle path isn’t under consideration for this game. Forget the Great Wall – only useful for a peaceful game; military game demands experienced units which demands battle experience. That’s what barbs are for (feed the war chariots!). After Masonry I think Currency will be a big boon (+1 trade route per city, but more importantly to build wealth when preventing units going on strike becomes necessary, and if the war goes well and I get lots of cities, I’ll need it).

This sounds to me like a fair plan for a quick-strike military followed by imperial consolidation. If executed as planned, it should give me a distinct early lead over at least one of the AI, with good prospects for beating the others to Maces/Knights/Trebs for Round 2

What can go wrong – (1) Resources-- Obviously, no horse would mean no war chariot rush. No copper is no big deal unless my opponent has it (in which case I’ll need axes to stop the spears from crippling my advance); but archers should protect war chariots fairly well, so maybe look for a good place to tuck in Archery in my tech plan. (Perhaps revise to include Alphabet after writing, in order to trade for this, maybe for Ironworking too, and to see what the AI have for techs to choose my target wisely). (2) Opponents-- Impi’s would bite, as would almost any other early UU to face (Expect to see Shaka, Alexander, Mansa). Protective civs would increase the number of units required for a rush, thus slowing it down. (3) Proximity-- AI could be too far for effective rush (switch to settler rush!). (4) Intangibles—if I could predict what these are they wouldn’t be intangible.

Now its time to play.

I settled as planned 1S of dye, and followed the huning>mining>BW>AH path. No metals, but plenty of horses close by, I settle my second city to the southeast on the river to pick up the horse and eliminate worries about barbs. My first warrior made contact with all civs (Peter, Mao, Napoleon) before being eaten by bears. Time to pause and consider what I know about these guys: Backstabbers, untrustworthy, slow techers. Not Industrious. With these guys there will be wars – only chance at good diplo (and that won’t come until Friendly) is sharing common wars. Unfortunately, from the geography I know that I will be the monkey in the middle. *Never trust a mapmaker.

Peter is somewhat of a nemisis for me in BOTM/GOTM games,and he is the closest, already settling on my southern borders. My rush target is set.

Now I did something stupid… or maybe not stupid but a deviation from my plans none-the-less. My first 5 war chariots were sent to capture a barb city that kept threatening my horses. I killed all four barb archers and took the city with no losses, much gained XP. But it slowed me down, and that is ”faux pas numero uno” in any rush strategy. Slow is death.

Anyhow… by the time I take on Peter I have 7-8 War Chariots with 2-3 promos each. (First GG settled in capitol). I take and keep Yaroslavl and StPetersberg. Spears are now visible on the horizon, I have no metals and no archery, and I take peace treaty. Unexpectedly, I am still behind Peter in score. While I’ve been chopping out units, they have been chopping out settlers. OK, I’ve got a few barb cities to incorporate and can settle a few more, so I’m not in bad shape at all. I build the Pyramids in my Horse City because it was late and nobody else wanted it (completed about 1AD), and I chop the GLib in Yaroslavl (with an Academy), and longer term should probably move my capitol there. I’m holding a sizable tech lead, so things are quite OK (reminder to self, do NOT get complacent with a good situation when playing on Immortal difficulty level). Right about when the Pyramids is completed, BUFFY shows me a red fist in Russia – and since he borders nodbody else (I have an empire from sea to shining sea, right through the middle of the continent) I am 100% certain that I am the target. Fortunately with Open Borders I can plant a War Chariot in Moscow and watch his stack grow (presently 6 sword, 6 axe, 6 spear). Plans for Civil Service are put on hold – no, on second thought I will try to push for Civil Service for Bur then Machinery for Mace/X-bows before he attacks. But I will slow this tech push since I need to build more units. (I got Iron on the West Coast now, but haven’t hooked it up yet!). In retrospect, I should have gone for Machinery first. Its overall slower to maces, but would have given me X-bows sooner.

Didn’t need X-bows for Peter, though. He has no seige units, and StPetes has walls, and plenty of war chariots and archers and enough axes/spears to stymie him. I’m leaving my Western flank open, but I can see that so is he. I’ll have to let him attack, since he has good defensive terrain to do so from (killed my worker as it tried to chop forest from a hill that had recently become Egyptian territory). Peter must have one of the worlds longest ”i refuse to talk” characteristics that there is, so no chance for a pause to get me to maces quicker. About 500AD, Peter breaks the stalemate by bribing Mao to DOW me at ”Pleased”. I am ready to resign… I simply can’t handle another front. Not only that but Napolean in red-fisted WHEOOHRN too, and you can guess who his worst enemy is, can’t you? I smell a doggie-style dog-pile coming on. We are at about 500AD now.

Time to resign? I think the appropriate response is ”Nuts”.

OK… time to recognize that my odds of victory in this BOTM have gotten pretty long right about now… but lets look at the situation calmly and rationally. Peter broke his main stack already, I can hold StPete’s with a lot fewer units (in fact, I was considering a counter-attack just when Mao DOW’s me). Second, although Mao DOW’s me, clearly he was not ready for war yet, as only one scout is in my territory and his nearest cities are garrisoned with no more than two or three crappy units. This gives me time. Third, Napoleon has not actually DOW’d me (yet), though he has a formidable Sword/HA/Cat stack on my Eastern seabord. My two east coast cities are the least developed of my cities, and although I do not want to cede the territory, losing them would not be a fatal blow (in the short term, it would probably improve my economy). Besides, I have the whip! So I start whipping like there’s no tomorrow, because the alternative is that there IS no tomorrow.

 

[beestar]

Goal: cultural victory on Immortal. Whipping/chopping an army of axemen to conquer the world seemed a bit boring so instead I went for a fast cultural win. I was worried about barbs with so much slow-expanding forest, and also about claiming enough land with the reduced number of AIs. So the major goals were to expand fast, and maintain the peace without conquering a neighbour.

Initial Expansion to 500AD

Initial build: worker, warrior, warrior, warrior, worker

I settled on the Dye which was great for accelerating the early worker techs (especially since Egypt's starting techs were rather useless). First settler went southwest to create Memphis a massive GP Farm. That site had 1 corn and 5 deers, each worth 5 ! Arboria has a huge amount of food ...

Heliopolis (City 3) went northwest to claim the 4 deer / 3 horse site. Clearly a powerful city, but I had some problems with the city growing too fast, and working unimproved tiles. Should have spent more time in Slavery or pumping out workers - I didn't really have enough workers for this map.

Elephantine (City 4) went far southeast to claim the double-gems site. My goal was to expand to the eastern ocean, but leave a gap to the west so Peter and Mao would border each other, causing conflict. Not sure if this really worked but I did manage to claim the resources to the east (Ivory, Gold, Spices, Gems). Did a pretty decent job of blocking out land and with so much food cities could be tightly packed in.

Looking good so far, but I don't trust Peter farther than I can throw a War Chariot. See you in the Final Spoiler thread ...

Tech Path

T07 Hunting
T15 Mining
T27 Bronzeworking
T?? Mysticism
T39 Polytheism (I found Hinduism, 2480BC)
T?? Priesthood (2280BC)
T53 Writing (1880BC)
T55 Code of Laws (from Oracle, 1800BC)
T58 Animal Husbandry (1680BC)
T81 Alphabet (875BC)
T82 Pottery, Fishing, Archery (850BC, trade)
T92 Sailing (575BC, trade)
T96 Ironworking (475BC, trade)
T102 Currency (350BC)
T107 Mathematics
T108 Meditation (175BC, trade)
T109 Masonry (trade) (150BC)
T110 Monotheism (trade, 125BC)
T115 Aesthetics (25BC)
T119 Monarchy (100AD)
T122 Calendar (175AD, trade)
T126 Literature (250AD)
T136 Music (from GA - launch Golden Age)

Milestones

T10 met Peter
T14 Buddhism founded (by Napoleon)
T26 met Mao
T39 Hinduism founded (holy cow)
T42 Memphis founded to SW of main city
T45 First barb
T49 Met Napoleon, the last AI
T55 Built oracle for COL, my second religion
I get Peter into Confucianism but I can't afford to switch into it myself (for fear of antagonizing Buddhist Napoleon)
T70 3rd city Heliopolis founded to NW at triple-horse site
T75 First Great Scientist, Academy in Thebes
T81 Alphabet.
T94 4th city founded
T98 5 cities
T100 Second GS, settled
T111 Christianity founded by Mao - so much for my third religion
T121 Taoism founded by Peter - so much for my third religion
T122 Gave Aesthetics to Peter. Stole Goth from under the nose of the French army
T133 Missed Parthenon by 1 turn ... all that chopping in my GP Farm Memphis wasted

 

[BornInCantaloup]

How do some of you have such accurate data ? (e.g. Turn N : Tech researched, city founded, etc.) It looks pretty useful !

This was an unusual game both because of the low numbers of AI and because arboria is quite an unusual map in terms of terrain types - loads of forests and grassland, but less variety in the types of resources available. How did that change your strategy?

Fewer AIs meant to me that I did not want to found an early religion, because I wanted to avoid getting DoWed for religious purposes. My priority was grabbing land to ensure I wouldn't be the tiny kingdom stuck in the middle.
Fewer AIs, as well, meant to me no early war because there would be space to expand into.
Regarding the poor resources variety, well, as long as I had horses and food, I didn't mind. I focused on early libraries and the deers were "transformed" into scientists in as many cities as possible.

What did you do with the dye? Several people in the pregame were talking about settling on it, which surprised me because I think a worked dye tile is pretty good for commerce (albeit only after calendar).

Settled on it. I don't know if it was a good idea, though. It sure helped in the early game, but it appeared that Thebes was light on food and rich in hills. Right now I'm planning to move my palace to the east, in Alexandria (5th city), that grabbed the 2nd gold site and is heavily cottaged.

How many cities did you found in the early game? On immortal level you are faced with high city maintenance costs that quickly kill your science after the first couple of cities, but on the other hand if you don't grab the land you can be sure an AI will.

By 2000BC, I had 3 cities (sizes 3,1,1), 4 cities by 1000BC (sizes 4,4,4,1) and... 9 cities by 1AD (10,8,8,7,6,4,3,2,1) I culture-flipped a barb city and captured another that had the double-gems site. At that point, I was researching for Code of Law since I would lose gold even with a slider at 100% gold !
So... I tried to keep up with the AIs as far as expansion is concerned. From that point, I'm the first territorial power (in terms of land area, not pop, nor army... I'm 4th in army...).
Up till 500AD, I've focused on my infrastructure : I have 11 cities, cool, but, above all, I can gain gold at a 40% science slider. This is a relief !

What about warring?

Here's the deal : Nappy, Mao and I are buddhist. Peter is Hindu. Any of them can be bribed into war with anybody (danger !). My army is 0,5 to 0,6 of theirs and I have very little coast.
Taking on Peter, the bad Hindu guy, has been my plan from some time already.
On the other hand, Nappoleon has the Buddhist shrine... I bet it provides some 30+ gold/turn ! This is feeding my greed ! It probably is unreasonable, since Nappy is the strongest in military (and Peter is the weakest AI).
Regarding the map, I've expanded to the east, so Mao isn't a viable strategic option. Taking some of Peter or Nappy's land, ont the other hand, would make my strategic position much (much !) stronger.
Of course, that can't be right now. I'm researching for Civil Service, building the Great Lib, moving my Palace, have neither the Heroic Epic nor the National Epic built and can only toy with a handful of War Chariots and Catapults... Not to mention there's a barb city at Peter's border that I should take, first.


I don't have a save for 500AD, only for 525 AD and 425 AD, thus... Here are a few screens from 425 AD

Spoiler :

My Northern territory is mostly dedicated to production. Memphis should host the Heroic Epic and Khoisan, that was culture-flipped from the barbs, is going to be a great hammer city as well. Elephantine was my 4th city, I aimed for riversides at the beginning of the game to improve my cottages.


Here is were my economic hopes lie. Alexandria will be my future capital. Pi-Ramesses and Ainu will be heavily cottaged. To the west, Heliopolis runs scientists on steroids. The city has an Academy and provides a necessary science boost.


Now, Lybian, I would like to conquer with some Catapults. The two other cities shall become GP farms, but, before that, they'll help whipping an army. Most probably to invade Peter's land. As you can see, the front is very large and this gives me headaches XD Taking up to Rostov and Yakutsk would be great. The Western front could be left to Mao (and maybe Nappy), I hope.


I used to be leading in techs. I can't say I still am. I hope for a comeback, though. Shwedagon Paya for Pacifism + Civil Service + Great Lib shall help.


So... I'm happy about my land area (1st !). I'm 4th in army and pop, but pop can grow pretty fast once I got my infrastructure running. Regarding the army, theirs don't look so large. I should be able to catch up quickly once 4-5 cities will be building military... heavily.

 

[beestar]

How do some of you have such accurate data ? (e.g. Turn N : Tech researched, city founded, etc.) It looks pretty useful !

Ctrl-Tab will give you the Turn Log which tells you when everything happened in the game. The dates there can be converted to Turn# with a very small bit of math. Or you could jot down notes during the game if you were really sad ...

... like me ...

 

[BornInCantaloup]

Thanks a lot !
I will try this for the tech path

I'm not so sad I would take notes, though... I've got no window on victory, yet, but I do not envision defeat either !

 

[Grifftavian]

Adventurer Save, and even this is well above my pay grade

Horrible Start!

T1/3960 BC - Thebes founded on Dye
Initial builds = Worker x2/Settler/Warrior/War Chariot/Settler

T7/3720 BC – contact w/Napoleon
T10/3600 BC – contact w/Peter
T12/3520 BC – contact w/Mao
It didn't take long to meet all the neighbors! That can't be good.

T42/2320 BC – Memphis founded 2NW+2N on river near Horses.
T57/1720 BC – Heliopolis founded 3SE+4E on river near Grassland Gold Hill (perhaps a little far, but I wanted another Gold resource)

T60/1600 BC – Memphis captured by Barbarians
T66/1360 BC – Memphis retaken from Barbarians

T85/750 BC – Elephantine founded 3SW+1S of Heliopolis
T86/725 BC – Elephantine captured & razed by Barbs! Barb Spearman killed my War Chariot!

T90/625 BC – Heliopolis captured; Barbarian Spearman killed my Combat III War Chariot!

T99/400 BC – Alexandria founded 5S of Thebes on hill near small Lake.

T100/375 BC – Heliopolis retaken from Barbarians.
T104/275 BC – Heliopolis recaptured by Barbarians!
(Heliopolis captured by France prior to T112 )

T112/75 BC – Napoleon/France DOW on poor old Hattie!

T116/25 AD - Pi-Ramsses founded ~5E of Thebes, on hill near Iron!

T120/125 AD - Adopt Judaism (Napoleon's Religion) hoping for a chance at a Peace Treaty.
Napoleon will only give Peace Treaty for Pi-Ramesses and my only source of Iron! Decide to continue fighting.

T128/325 AD - Memphis captured by France!
T131/400 AD - El Cid (Great General) orn in Alexandria (used as Military Instructor in Thebes)
T135/500 AD - Heliopolis captured from France!

Looks like my chances of surviving this game are Slim and None, and Napoleon has told Slim to get out of town before Sundown! I guess I should have tried to build The Great Wall, even without access to Stone. I should have retired and posted an incomplete score, but I'm not smart enough for that, I'm going down swinging! Don't look for a Final Spoiler from me, my Hattie will be dead soon, and Napoleon won't even have the decency to mummify her!

Research completed by 500 AD.

Spoiler :

Mining
Hunting
Animal Husbandry
Bronze Working
Archery
Pottery
Writing
Masonry
Iron Working
Alphabet
Aesthetics
Currency
Construction (in progress)

Tech Trades
T93/550 BC – Writing to Mao for Mysticism & Fishing
T104/275 BC – Alphabet to Peter for Mathematics
T111/100 BC – Aesthetics to Peter for Polytheism & Sailing

 

[beestar]

Ouch, sounds rough. A few warriors to scout and fogbust usually help a lot, e.g. worker, warrior, warrior.

At least you tried it. See you in next month's Deity level game - I expect it to be very "educational" for me

 

[Grifftavian]

Ouch, sounds rough. A few warriors to scout and fogbust usually help a lot, e.g. worker, warrior, warrior.

I suppose I needed more defenders in my cities. Trying to expand too fast for this difficulty level, and I have very little experience at anything above Prince level.

At least you tried it. See you in next month's Deity level game - I expect it to be very "educational" for me

Yes, expecting another painful lesson next month if it's a Deity level game as expected But looking forward to it none the less.

 

[azzaman333]

Just to kick off the discussion with a few questions...

This was an unusual game both because of the low numbers of AI and because arboria is quite an unusual map in terms of terrain types - loads of forests and grassland, but less variety in the types of resources available. How did that change your strategy?

The forests gave me the idea to chop out the Great Wall rather than fogbusting. This actually worked out well for me (at first)

What did you do with the dye? Several people in the pregame were talking about settling on it, which surprised me because I think a worked dye tile is pretty good for commerce (albeit only after calendar).

Settled on the dye, not expecting to be surviving long past Calendar (looks like I'm not going to be surviving much longer and I still don't have Calendar, so another wise move )

How many cities did you found in the early game? On immortal level you are faced with high city maintenance costs that quickly kill your science after the first couple of cities, but on the other hand if you don't grab the land you can be sure an AI will.

This was where I made some mistakes. I didn't expand past 4 cities for way too long even though I had the money to do it. Also, blocking off Mao's expansion with those 4 cities meant he was going to take them from me. In hindsight I should've expanded every direction other than NW, unlike what I actually chose to do.

What about warring? Fewer AIs would mean that a couple of early wars could wipe out any chance for tech trading, but on the other hand if you don't attack them early they'll grow huge. How did you cope with those dilemmas, with all the trees hampering your UU's mobility?

When Mao and Napoleon decided to attack me from each side within 10 turns of each other, and both of them taking 1 of my 6 cities within 2 turns of the declaration, I'm screwed. Once I lose Memphis or Thebes, it won't take long for them to finish me. It didn't help that Mao refused to take peace for anything less than Memphis, my only city with good production capabilities.

On a difficulty level that's too hard for me, with an unfamiliar map type to me, against 3 jerks, the odds were never in favour of me surviving til one of them won peacefully, let alone winning.

 

[BornInCantaloup]

It's a sad thing to have cities captured by barbs, Grifftavian ;(
I don't know what exactly went wrong for you but I'm truly sorry... Maybe your Heliopolis was really too far away, as you mention.

I didn't have to fight barb spearmen, that sure makes a difference.

 

[pnp_dredd]

I'm playing a fairly similar game to beestar. I also had a GP farm to the SW, and an early city SE to claim the double-gems site. There was also a nce production city to the NW, with lotsa hills and 4 deer/3 horses. I didn't attempt an Oracle sling, but instead went went BW-pottery-alpha-Lit for the GLib (2 GSs: 1 academy in capital and one for Education). I didn't found any religions. I did build Parthenon.

Napolean went WHEOOHN very early on, and I was majorly stressing. I managed to keep both Nappy and Peter happy with me early on, Then Mao declared on me. Then Napolean declared on Mao! I would have been toast otherwise. They're keeping each other busy.