BOTM 29 First Spoiler

This one is pretty easy if you don't go too wild and try a long distance Q rush or go wonder crazy and forfeit all the good land.

You are going to think I am nuts for doing just the opposite except for the forfeit "all the good land" part

Huts are traditionally removed from near the player. IMO the barb archer thing was an oversight, would have been interesting if intended.

Events in BOTM are completely inexcusable. This is a competition.

I thought civ4 always had warriors protecting early spawned cities. So you are saying Sid and the team messed up?

I totally agree that events have no place in GOTM competition.

CHALLENGER

Cuzco
3550bc Worker
3175bc Workboat
2950bc Workboat
2750bc Workboat

This was my originally planned build order but I changes it.
 
jesusin, contender. Goal fastest peaceful victory (culture or space)

Nice map with a bunch of peacemongers! Also we are Incans, so it should have been one of the easiest Immortal games ever played... but I dug myself into a huge hole, it is one of my worst games ever!


Starting:

Settle 1E for the additional food. No good production tile for building workboats so the usual plan of researching fishing and changing production from worker to WB immediately won't work. Research mining, build worker.

Mining, Fishing, BW
Worker, 4turns of SH, WB
mm to mined hill immediately, I'm growing fast enough, hammers now are more important than working another unimproved tile.

Two religions real close to me. Asoka has founded 1 religion and is moving a Settler escorted by two archers. All my neighbours are peaceful so far... I'll play for culture. It been a time since I last did so!
Accordingly, I dow Asoka and enslave his settler:D. I had checked nobody loved him so no negatives with anyone.

The worker goes slowly and carefully back home. The quechua, who has now cover and medic promos, will stay around to keep Asoka in the stone age. I'm not accepting peace. His worker is nowhere to be seen. This is 3000BC.


Being at war

Research Wheel and Pottery for the border-popping Granaries, then AH for barb defense and for the million cows around, then Writing and Alpha.

The lonely quechua pillages some tiles and looks for the worker... it was in the improved horses tile... :aargh:panic! it's connected by river! Run, little quechua, run!
Horses pillaged, just when they've built......... a settler!

Start settler after 2WB and 2quechuas, third Quechua will fogbust a place to settle, I'm not exploring much.

Asoka gets another religion. Their worker is looking at the horses tile with a depraved smile, so I'll leave a quechua around.

I am researching AH and there are 2 barb warriors around the pond, so I settle by the coast SE, with fish, cow and wheat. Revolt to slavery to whip Granary in capital while the settler is on the move.

When there are 7archers, settler and worker in Delhi, Asoka exchanges 3 of them for my quechua-hero. No problem, I've brought some more.

Settle my third city 1S of horses, it's good this city has been delayed, I would have settled on horses. It's 2000BC and I'm about to make a huge mistake.


Mistakes time

I choose to research Alpha. Seems logical, doesn't it?
I whip 3 pop into a new settler. Settle N of Delhi with lake, cow, rice, ivory, silk. I'm short of happiness, the Ivory will come handy.
I don't explore, my quechuas gather in India. But not fast enough, their settler slips S and settles.
Whip 3 pop into Library, hire 2 scientists. I hide from a great mediator. Oracle is gone. All AI met.

I realize I'm never getting Alpha. Those quechuas on the field are expensive. I am working no cottages. My cities have future by they are too small, need happiness urgently. Start researching Hunting instead of Alpha.

Take Asoka second city with 2 archers losing 2 quechuas.
I send an exploring WB, he will explore it all NW then come back to be used in my future city E of the capital. Sounds like a plan, doesn't it?

Other AIs have 5 cities, Alpha, Aesth, Maths... I think I might be getting into a hole. Mind you, "I might".

It's only 1000BC when I realize this is a economic disaster. I need more happiness to work more sea tiles and keep afloat.

Settle another city in the far E, with fish, cow, banana. Stop the following settler, I can't afford any more cities.

1000 BC Stats: 6 cities, 17 pop, 6 workers, 13units(2Cha), 1Set,1WB, 1 strategic resources, 0 luxury resources, 5 health resources, 0 great persons, 0 world wonders, 0 national wonders, food/production/commerce=52-16-33, 15bpt and -8gpt at 0%, 17 culture per turn, 12 great person points per turn, 50 gold, 4Gra, 2Lib. 1 religions, 0/1 cottages used, 9 Techs: BW, Wri. 0 civs killed. 7 hours played.



Deep in the hole


8 quechuas and 3 chariots are ready. Asoka is whipping archers non stop, let's not wait for the following turn for another quechua+chariot. Bad luck, severely damaged Archer survives, another is whipped!
Forest burns, I don't have the option to save it, I don't have 10g.
Attack, barely win, I've got a pop1 city! Yoohoo! And 3 new Workers I can barely pay for. At least I am out of units... so I'm not taking any of those pretty barb cities. Bye, bye, Asoka.

Alphabet is got 625BC, I have 0g and -8gpt at 0%. I prefer working a lake better than an improved horses tile. I prefer working a no-lh sea tile better than improved corn. All cities build research now, Currency is my next goal.

All I can get from Alpha right now is IW, Sailing, Meditation and Archery. I'd better wait before trading. Very logical, isn't it?
I get a GS that builds Academy in capital, giving me nothing for the time being. I don't want to settle or bulb it only to have to get another for an Academy thus netting me a Great Artist less later on. Wouldn't you have done the same?

The exploring WB has gone so far that only now that my borders pop I realize there's fish in the gold island. A city there would have given me 1 more happiness and the mined gold is another +8gpt... I should have researched Sailing before even starting Alpha! It would have paid for itself a zillion times!

And what I am doing now, delaying Sailing for the hope to get a few more beakers in trades! Make those trades, get Sailing 15 turns later than I could.


Settle the 3 food resources site E, settle the island with fish and clams in the FC, mine the gold (215BC, I'm sure no other player has done this later than me) Take a barb city with banana, corn and spices.

When I settle on the island I discover the 2 Gems site. Had my WB explored the surroundings before sailing for new lands!

All AI who have Maths, also have Currency. I'm depressed, I can't fall out of the trading game or I risk even losing the game! Fortunately Hamm gets Maths too, I get Currency, we trade. Sell Curency to Sitting Bull for 70g. Raped? Not at all! He's got a big stack in the city next door, I want him and everybody else Pleased from now on, I'm not building any more units.

With Currency I become filthy rich. 40gpt at 0%, tears come to me eyes, the future is bright! Settle the gems island. Trade for Calendar and Monarchy, Happiness problem is solved, my economy is blooming... but Music's GA is gone.

Moai completed in the first city I settles, it should have gone to the gems city instead.

1AD Stats: 11 cities, 52 pop, 11workers, 12units (3cha), Gal, many miss, 1 strategic resources, 6 luxury resources, 10 health resources, 1 great persons, 0 world wonders, 1 national wonders, food/production/commerce=175-49-247, 115 sustainable beakers per turn, 52 culture per turn, 1 great person points per turn, 600 gold. 4 religions. 15/23 cottages used, 22 Techs: Alpha, Monar, IW, Aest, Curr, Calen, no Poly. 1 civs killed. 15.5 hours played. 14rel*city, 6temples, 0cath


On my way to culture


Economic problems are solved. Forges are whipped, cities are growing. Decide to get CS before Music, risking to lose Sistine's.

Revolt to Bureaucracy 280AD, Parthenon built in Moai city (whipped 4 pop to be sure), fail to get MoM by 1 turn in capital. I shouldn't have chopped two turns before going into Bureaucracy. What a difference little details make! Since Colossus isn't gone, I get it.

Ask 40g to everybody, that's my payback for having them Pleased. Decide that, after Liberalism, I'll be able to play with them so that all of them share the same religion or are in FR. I haven't used any religious civic yet.

By 500AD I have 11 cities (very capable of popping a couple of GAs each), 325 sustainable bpt, 4 religions, 29 religious infections, Parthenon, Colossus, 13 temples and no cathedrals. I whip 6 people to make sure I'll get Sistine's next turn. It's been hard, but I have a won game in my hands now, although it won't be a fast victory at all.
 
As I stated in the pregame thread, I went for a Q rush. At first did not find anyones cities. But then with 8 Q's looking we found Asoka and his Hindu Capital.

The worker has been very buisy building mines and chopped a forest when BW was available to get 8-10 Q's very fast (Since my only other Q rush was a crash and burn, I took as many as I can get on this game). All units converged on the Indian Cap and took it on T62. Gave Ashoka a Cease Fire to let his 2 arches escort a settler from his second city hoping to kill the archers to get a worker but forgot to do so :crazyeye: and he built a city on what later turned out to be horses. 6 Q's take his second city and I panicked thinking he settled on Iron and attack his last city and be done with him on T73. So by T73 I have 3 cities and about 10 Q's roaming around. They find 2 barb cities and take them. Lizzy and others were too far away and my plans for 3 capital cities for a culture game stop there.

Delhi build the Oracle for us and learn MC on T89(1775 BC). We establish the third Culture city SE of the south lake with Horse, Cow and Corn in BFC. Tech trading brings us to Third place behind Lizz and Hatty fairly early and We start a wonder fest.

Delhi finishes:
The Oracle-T89 (1775 BC)
The Pyramids-T155 (275 BC),
The Kashi Vishwanath-T160 (200 BC) first GP
The Parthenon-T180 (100 AD)
The Sistine Chapel-T202 (430 AD)

Cuzco finishes:
The Great Lighthouse-T149 (365 BC)
The Great Library-T193 (295 AD)
National Epic-T202 (430 AD)

Tiwanaku finishes:
The Statue of Zeus-T156 (260 BC)
Shwedagon Paya-T193 (295 AD)
Mausoleum of Maussollos-not before 500AD:D

Bombay finishes:
The Colossus-T157 (245 BC)

I did not think the Colossus would last that long inorder to build it in the capital due to trading MC freely and not being able to build the copper city on the NW island due to very bad barb galley problem. Two of our galley's and a Trireme got killed to several barb galley's. I had a worker sitting on the gold island long enough to improve 4 of its five land tiles. This led to late GLH time and was built without the use of any of the seafood:mad:.

I think I will be heading for a Cultural Victory.:scan: 11 cites, first place with way too many pop rushing for my taste. Oh BTW DS, thanks for marble and stone nearby.:rolleyes:

 

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Delhi finishes:
The Oracle-T89 (1775 BC)
The Pyramids-T155 (275 BC),
The Kashi Vishwanath-T160 (200 BC) first GP
The Parthenon-T180 (100 AD)
The Sistine Chapel-T202 (430 AD)

Cuzco finishes:
The Great Lighthouse-T149 (365 BC)
The Great Library-T193 (295 AD)
National Epic-T202 (430 AD)

Tiwanaku finishes:
The Statue of Zeus-T156 (260 BC)
Shwedagon Paya-T193 (295 AD)
Mausoleum of Maussollos-not before 500AD:D

Bombay finishes:
The Colossus-T157 (245 BC)
Nice collection. Guess you are going the hammer culture route.

I think I will be heading for a Cultural Victory.:scan: 11 cites, first place with way too many pop rushing for my taste. Oh BTW DS, thanks for marble and stone nearby.:rolleyes:
can you imagine if those two resources were nearby? Twice as fast to build.
 
Looks more like GPP-poisoning than hammer-route, IMO, especially GLib. Delhi isn't that good LC candidate as it is low on food and therefore will build cathedrals slowly and have few cottages. Cuzco is excellent GP farm + LC, but the genetics is dreadful. Well, another GAge or two :)
Zeus and Shwedagon aren't required at all.

You can get cultural vic, no problems, but late and with loads of low-use GP.
 
No I didn't :) Maybe we can do it next time
 
Nice collection. Guess you are going the hammer culture route.

can you imagine if those two resources were nearby? Twice as fast to build.

Hammer culture is the idea. To use Inca strengths. And I do wish we had more resources for cathedrals. But copper is good for 3 religions.

Looks more like GPP-poisoning than hammer-route, IMO, especially GLib. Delhi isn't that good LC candidate as it is low on food and therefore will build cathedrals slowly and have few cottages. Cuzco is excellent GP farm + LC, but the genetics is dreadful. Well, another GAge or two :)
Zeus and Shwedagon aren't required at all.

You can get cultural vic, no problems, but late and with loads of low-use GP.

I am not too concerned about the GP pool for the same reasons you mentioned. Also it will have two more culture GPP generating buildings. Actually Delhi should be fine. It will have about 12 towns and I gave it an artificial cultural town callled a settled Great Artist.

Oh-oh, I am doomed then :sad:

Oh great! :)
...But then Lexad himself can turn his quechua-expanded game into a 1000AD cultural victory... :rolleyes:

No worries. I do not go into 100% culture untill about 1300AD, although I am about 15turns from learning Nationalism from Lib.

Originally, I was more interested in seeing if I can break 200K in this game. However now I am wondering how correct Lexad is about late victory date.

Crap... as usual I can not make up my mind.

No I didn't :) Maybe we can do it next time
Hummmm sounds like an open cultural challenge. Calling all culture players.
 
Hummmm sounds like an open cultural challenge. Calling all culture players.
I was thinking culture was my only possible victory. Looks like I will have lots of company. Maybe I will get low score, but someone will probably spoil that again.
Haven't played this game for a while - guess I need to finish it soon. ;)
If I manage to win liberalism, don't know whether to take Astronomy or Nationalism. Astronomy would cost me the Colossus commerce. :(
 
If I manage to win liberalism, don't know whether to take Astronomy or Nationalism. Astronomy would cost me the Colossus commerce. :(

Cultural game Nationalism pros: TajMaj and Hermit. Also security (drafting available).
Cultural game Nationalism cons: None.

Cultural game Astronomy pros: trading with the other continent AIs... none this game.
Cultural game Astronomy cons: Colossus obsolete.

Where is the doubt? Maybe I am missing something.
 
Cultural game Nationalism pros: TajMaj and Hermit. Also security (drafting available).
Cultural game Nationalism cons: None.

Cultural game Astronomy pros: trading with the other continent AIs... none this game.
Cultural game Astronomy cons: Colossus obsolete.

Where is the doubt? Maybe I am missing something.
Thanks for the advice. Looks like an easy decision.

I still play the game like a noob: build a civ to last the test of time, building buildings, not min-maxing to achieve fast victory, agonizing over every decision without clear analyses, and so on.

first to Astronomy = first to new world (play the map, right?)
so, my struggle is: ignore new world and focus on culture victory or settle it because it is there?
and those fancy modern wonders (and corp's) that help with culture, all come after SciMethod/Astro

if I'm not first to Nat'lism, might not get Taj. Astro would be good trade bait.

So, that's why it is a hard decision for me (someone that has a hard time making decisions), althought the answer is obvious.
 
first to Astronomy = first to new world (play the map, right?)
so, my struggle is: ignore new world and focus on culture victory or settle it because it is there?

Do you already have the number of cities you need for your favourite type of cultural victory?
There are 2 options:
Option1: 9 cities for building 1 cathedral per religion in every Legendary city
Option2: 6 cities for building 1 cathedral per religion in two of the Legendary cities, the third one gets Legendary thanks to some 9 culture bombs.
(1 additional city is often advisable in both cases)

If you are going for option2, don't research Astronomy this game, at all.

and those fancy modern wonders (and corp's) that help with culture, all come after SciMethod/Astro

I new I was missing something. I understand your question much better now.
Some cultural guides around say you should stop research just at Liberalism for a fast victory.
Other thinkers say Sushi and the WW around radio are the best way.
If you are a follower of the first (and you plan to stay at 6 cities), there's no doubt you should take Natio.


If you care for the opinion of a single person, my advice is that, stay at 6 cities and get Natio. It's so clear in my mind that I was wondering why you were doubting at all. The new cities will take some time to get settled and some more time to get in shape and build the temples which are the real only reason you are building them. And I am a firmly believer on the stop at Liberalism school (just because it was optimal in Vanilla, but I might be very wrong here).

Don't forget to get Sistine's!
 
^ jesusin, thanks for the replies

Why not skip astronomy and still get 9 cities? Although I was cut off from the east I can easily build 3 more cities on the islands to get to 9.
I guess you already answered this:
The new cities will take some time to get settled and some more time to get in shape and build the temples which are really the only reason you are building them.

Since you advise "stop research", I guess this means I shouldn't build Universities or Oxford? The 3 culture from universities isn't worth the hammers?
Oh, certainly don't build them if there are any religious buildings still to be built.

And going the Nationalism route I was planning to get Rep next and continue teching with my artist specialists.
Should I continue tech trading or is it better to not help the AIs tech?

Any other key wonders I should try for besides Sistine Chapel?
 
I'm not exactly jesusin, but I'll try. :)
Since you advise "stop research", I guess this means I shouldn't build Universities or Oxford? The 3 culture from universities isn't worth the hammers?
Oh, certainly don't build them if there are any religious buildings still to be built.
Sorta answered your own question... at least partly. Once you're in research-shutdown mode, it's time to max out culture and do a careful spreadsheet estimating your finish date. Then you can easily see if the hammers invested in a 3cpt university (post-cathedrals) will contribute enough to beat building culture. Generally speaking, they will until fairly late (assuming you have substantial culture multipliers).
Edit: Oxford is out of the question, ofc. You shouldn't be building 6 Unis if you're no longer in need of research. Your secondary cities may as well just try to get some GA's out and/or build wealth once they're done temples.
And going the Nationalism route I was planning to get Rep next and continue teching with my artist specialists.
Should I continue tech trading or is it better to not help the AIs tech?
If you go into shutdown mode, they'll out-tech you something awful regardless. You should note that trading techs and happy resources for cash helps run your culture slider high.
Any other key wonders I should try for besides Sistine Chapel?
Artist wonders in general, esp. Taj. At this date, Taj seems like the only one you'll be able to build. In general, they're all bloody expensive without marble. Honestly, your priority should be culture multipliers (Herm, cathedrals) at this stage. Earlier non-artist wonders are good, if they don't hamper other aspects of your game (or pollute your GP gene pool) too much.
 
Well, I continued my game after posting above. When I finish I will post in the final spoiler thread.
 
If you go into shutdown mode, they'll out-tech you something awful regardless.

This is not always the case and depend on the size of your empire, and the level. There is a good chance to get behind at this level but as far as you choose the correct tech path, running Representation and many Artist, you can stay with many AI's.
 
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