BOTM 33 First Spoiler - 500 AD

[jesusin]

Thanks all for your kind comments. It's great to receive so many fresh ideas.

loads of mining resources available are enough to fund the 10 cities mentioned.

Hmm, you are right, if you settle near the starting position the mining resources can keep you afloat far beyond 10 cities. If you decie to go and settle on the other end oof the map, though...

Automatic Conquest Loss?

It used to happen... but a patch got rid of that "feature".

A Major Goal of Moving the Settler was Achieved

It is weird that you felt like giving up. Certainly, you couldn't have rebuilt and moved your Palace in less than 6 turns. One would also think that a lot of turns Conquesting AIs would be saved if your capital location was closer to them. According to your goal of wanting to be in a more centralized location with your Palace, it seems that you more than made up for a the turns invested in moving.

Oh well, the fact is that I didn't settle in a more centered position at all, I ended up close to the "South pole". Also I wasn't really close to any AI. And my chosen settling site was horrible, unhelthyness at sze 3, nothing on the inner ring...

When you are planning to win by blitzkrieg, you lose 7 turns moving and then some more in the build of the first worker... you have to feel like giving up either the game or your plans.

Sufficient Attackers

Not enough units, my friend, not enough units. Without siege, you should plan to bring along AT LEAST double the number of defenders in your attack. I actually like to bring 1 unit more than double, so that you'll, in most cases, have a full-health defender for the City, and can also stand a chance of winning in those times when "double" the number of defenders is just short of having "enough" units.

Besides, had you won the last fight with, say, 0.3 Health left, then lost the City to an AI Archer or a Barb Unit within a couple of turns, would you have been any happier? Probably not.

You are partly right. I had two reasons to play like that:
- I was desperate and needed to regain some of the lost time back (compared to "the prefect domination player")
- I had double the units of the enemy. This rule of thumb is ok for chariots attacking archers in plain cities. The third archer was severely wounded, almost enough as not to count. And I had 2 HA, which should be at least as good as 3 chariots.

Expanding Across the Map

I'm not quite sure how to accomplish what you want to do, myself.
At 1AD, I only had 4 Cities, of Sizes 7, 6, 6, and 6. I suppose that if I'd pumped out more Settlers, I could have had more Cities, but I'm not sure if I could have managed 10 while avoiding the loss of some of those Cities to the Barbs, as I did not prioritize The Great Wall until after having Stone connected.

If you plan to take them by force, you have units enough not to need the GW. Also it is a very expensive WW.

Now it can really save hours of real time in a map like this one!

Risk Tolerance
Still, it sounds like you set for yourself some extremely lofty goals, and when you saw yourself potentially falling short of said goals, you took on several risks to try and help you to catch up. Of the risks that you mentioned, they were are leaving a City undefended on a map with a lot of Barbs and Aggressive AIs and attacking an AI City with too small of an attacker-to-defender ratio. There might be other risks that you took which may have paid off, but when you play such a risky game, you have to be willing to lose more often than when you accept less risk.

So be it. The speedy rabbit may race into the arms of great victory or just as easily race into the jaws of defeat. The patient turtle will achieve neither but will more consistently perform better than the average performance of the rabbit.

It's just that some "rabbit-like" players are too embarassed to submit their losses, so the results tables often hide the fact that they lost or abandoned their games. Thus, the results tables are skewed more towards showing the great victories instead of also showing a lot of the great defeats.

Hmmmm, should this rabbit here feel offended?

Moving the settler away form a mere 2 cows settling site is not taking a big risk, but a logical thing to do. In this kind of map it's very easy to find 3 cows sites.

Moving away from the 1S2E site was different... I admit it was taking a big risk... and probably foolish too.

After losing 7 turns and settling in the worst possible site, both rabbits and turtles are eager to take huge risks to make up for the lost time.



Now, please find me a turtle that has a better average performance than this crazy rabbit here! And as for the "jaws of defeat", even after all those misshappenings, my game is still clearly winnable.
Please, rest assured it's only a pose and I'm not really offended. It's just that I feel it is unfair, I am more of the turtle type of player, really. I used to make extravagant openings when I started playing GOTM, in the hopes of getting an advantage that compensated my lack of skill. After the first Award or two I gained confidence and I stopped doing so.


I wholeheartedly agree that top players should submit their loses and share a write-up about them. Everybody can learn a lot more easily from a blunder than from a perfect game.

In this game, early on you did not need the Rax to get the promotions going. I used Barbs to get my chariots promoted to 3 stars.

Food for thought! Thank you!


I always build barracks in my rushes, just because I am the builder type.

I tell to myself, "if I am to build 10 chariots, I'd better get a barracks before".

Now, chariots promotions are probably always going to be CombatX. A 10% extra strength per chariot and double speed barracks makes it even once you've built some 8 or 9 chariots... which is really slow and can be the cause of a rush failure.

 

[Dhoomstriker]

It used to happen... but a patch got rid of that "feature".

I'll take your word for it... for now. But, if I ever buy a new computer and have to reinstall the game, I think that I'll try out unpached Vanilla to test out your theory and see if it really was an "automatic" Conquest Loss or if it was more a matter of "surprise Barb Animals" coming in to eat you.

Note that when you first played, it was likely on a lower difficulty level, where Barb Animals survived for a lot longer. Food for thought (with your Settler being the Food!).

Oh well, the fact is that I didn't settle in a more centered position at all, I ended up close to the "South pole". Also I wasn't really close to any AI.

It sounds to me like you had the potential to be the only player who could run a game powered by The Great Lighthouse and The Colossus, by building almost all of your supporting Cities on the "Small Sea" that is found at the SE of a Great Plains map.

Surely, if you settled all of the Cities along the Small Sea's Coast, you'd have a 100% guarantee of getting those 2 Wonders! That would make for an interesting strategy in and of itself, not to mention the chance to spawn multiple Great Merchants.

And my chosen settling site was horrible, unhelthyness at sze 3, nothing on the inner ring...

I settled off of a River, so I know what you mean about unhealthiness. Still, unhappiness will kill you more than unhealthiness, and usually it's just a matter of founding another City near a DIFFERENT Health-based Resource or two, as you don't need THAT much extra Healthiness to match your initially-low Happiness cap. Instead of say, I don't know, settling City #2 beside 3 more of the same type of Health Resource that you already had (Cows).

When you are planning to win by blitzkrieg, you lose 7 turns moving and then some more in the build of the first worker... you have to feel like giving up either the game or your plans.

I don't know about that. I played an XOTM to completion where I'd moved for about 11 turns and still didn't end up witih a great capital location. I ended up settling near a bunch of Flood Plains squares and had low Healthiness right from the start.

It was the game where we played as Brennus and I kept trying to get Ramesses to convert to my Religion by spreading it to every one of his Cities. He never did convert to my Religion, but seemed more than happy to have the extra Cultural Buildings. He beat me to a Cultural Victory, and that was back in Warlords, when the AIs weren't any good at doing so.

It was also the game where I learned how evil the Vassalization system can be, when my war "ally" Shaka decided to capitulate Isabella just as I was within 1 to 3 turns of capturing 3 of Isabella's juiciest Cities.

Anyway, the point is that you stand to learn a lot and gain a lot of experience from playing out those tough game positions. Even if you submit your retirement now (you kind of have to do so since you read the Spoiler), I'd suggest playing the game out. Maybe try something interesting out, like a Sea-based economy on a Great Plains map. Maybe you'll surprise yourself with what you can do to pull yourself out of the hole.

I only had 4 Cities as of 1 AD and 5 Cities as of 500 AD. I didn't give up. Certainly, you can do as well as that from your current position, can't you?

- I had double the units of the enemy.

Uhhhhh, no you didn't. In the worst case, a wounded Archer counts as 0.25 of a unit. However, I would count him at a minimum as being 0.5 of a unit, as a single battle (1 additional attack) can often leave the Archer at the Health level that you quoted.

So, really, it's like you'd already used up one Chariot or Horse Archer attacking and had wounded the first Archer. You still need a second unit to "finish him off."

Thus, to match the "double the number of units" heurisitc, you'd need 5 attackers, whereas you only had 4.

The third archer was severely wounded, almost enough as not to count. And I had 2 HA, which should be at least as good as 3 chariots.

"Almost enough as not to count" isn't the same as "not existing." And no, the heuristic or "rule of thumb" is purely on number of units, not because a Horse Archer or a Chariot is better or worse than the other, but because you should plan for it to take 2 attackers to take down an Archer.

As I said, I prefer the "double the number of defenders plus 1" heuristic, as it gets you better results on average. It doesn't matter if I am attacking with Axemen or Macemen--I'll still want that number of attackers.

If you have Siege units or if the Archers are Longbowmen, then a different heuristic could apply, but for early-game rushes, that's the approach that I find works the best for me.

If you plan to take them by force, you have units enough not to need the GW. Also it is a very expensive WW.

The Hammer cost of the World Wonder is expensive, yes. But factor in losing 3 units to the Barbs and having to have an extra 8 units on "defend from the Barbs" duty and you'll see that on a map like this one, the cost of the Great Wall can easily make up for itself.

Take a look at Duckweed's screenshot. He has Warriors, a Scout, and NO DEFENDER defending a lot of his Cities.

I averaged 2.5 units per City defending from the Barbs, since I had to have fog-busters and "behind the lines" defenders to attack and kill the Barb units that walked past my fog-busters.

He was better able to leverage his military resources by gathering them all and focusing them on one AI at a time. The difference between his position and my position at 1 AD certainly would appear to favour using The Great Wall.

Now it can really save hours of real time in a map like this one!

I still think that you can learn a lot and enjoy the game if you play it out. Throw out your artificial goal of "10 Cities by 1 AD" and play to learn and to have fun.

I used to make extravagant openings when I started playing GOTM, in the hopes of getting an advantage that compensated my lack of skill. After the first Award or two I gained confidence and I stopped doing so.

To me, it seems like you "started doing so" again, at least for this game. Wandering for 7 turns will likely be done if you have the mentality of "I want to try to get some sort of advantage over the other players by moving to a potentially better spot that no one else will be able to play from. Also, if I fail to complete the game, I can blame the fact that I moved my Settler so far and did not find a better starting location."

Am I right or what?

After losing 7 turns and settling in the worst possible site, both rabbits and turtles are eager to take huge risks to make up for the lost time.

Maybe, but that's exactly the kind of time where you need to play a bit more conservatively and differently from the average game.

Surely, it would be foolish to chase after a Religion from such a position, and perhaps it would be dangerous to chase after an early Wonder, too.

Your priorities shift, as you will have Barbs coming at you 7 turns faster than normal.

It's worth spending the time to build up a bigger power base before going out conquesting, leveraging your new position's strenghts, but not until you've solidified your hold on your new position.

Says another player who is also used to moving his Settler to see if he can't get "an advantage over others" by moving "where no one else would have gone."

Now, please find me a turtle that has a better average performance than this crazy rabbit here!
... I am more of the turtle type of player, really.

Until you make up your mind on which type of player you are, it's hard to find a comparison. Actually, it's hard to find a comparison at all! We all know that you're a great player around here.

It's also fair that sometimes you might play as a rabbit and sometimes as a turtle. There's nothing wrong with that and it's actually better for you, as you'll increase the number of tricks in your playbook by trying to play different ways over time.

There's really nothing wrong with wanting to play a little bit differently than normal.

This point hold especially true if you have put a lot of pressure on yourself to "always excel" in your games and "live up to some sort of reputation." If you allow yourself to sit back and enjoy your games a bit more, you'll probably still do well, but might learn a bit more and enjoy them a bit more, than if you play them under the stress of "having" to place in the top 5.

I've been #1 in some XOTMs and then been ranked in the 30s or 40s in the following game. I don't let it bother me, nor should you.

I always build barracks in my rushes, just because I am the builder type.

I tell to myself, "if I am to build 10 chariots, I'd better get a barracks before".

That's like saying "if I'm going to whip, I'd better build a Granary first."

Or "if I'm going to build any buildings at all, I'd better get a Forge there first."

While all of those ideas help mid-game, they aren't always the best choice at the start of the game.

Each of those buildings takes an initial investment and some time to pay off. Sometimes the immediate benefit of getting something else (like more military units) sooner is more important than trying to get that "payoff from your investment" a bit earlier in the game.

It doesn't sound like the Barracks helped your mounted units win battles any more than normal. But would one more Chariot instead of a cheap Barracks have helped you to have taken that first City? Quite possibly.

 

[WelshGandalf]

Hey there,

Interesting discussion!

I have played Civ 4 a lot myself but only recently stumbled across these forums; this GOTM sounds like a fun lark instead of me just playing random games all the time Nice to see Great Plains being used too - my last game was an Archipelago with stringy islands everywhere and not a single river on the entire map, it's nice to be able to build farms again! I've only played 1 game at Monarch before, I usually play at Noble so this will be a challenge for me.

As for my start of game, well I settled 1E I think, got a worker, and went for the Great Wall. I had 2 cities, a warrior in each and a worker at the time the barbarians started coming, but the Great Wall was close. Unfortunately it was about 10 turns after it said 4 turns to go that it finally got built as the barbs trashed all my improvements

I finally settled a 3rd city in a not fantastic location, but already the barbarian settlements were close by, and I could see the borders of the Greek Empire close by. I built a load of jags and sent them at the Greeks, who destroyed them all with their 125% bonus vs melee units Phalanxes I'm not very good at early game wars it seems.

Since I could barely settle any more cities, and the Greeks kicked my butt (though we got peace between us in the end; can't remember how), the new plan was to take a load of cities off the barbarians, cue another big build-up of jaguars (not even any iron yet though I could see some month of my starting city & not too far away - a target for the future for sure). Those barb units should sure die quicker than Phalanxes.

I think I'll stop there in case I start talking about stuff that happened after 500AD - I'm up to about 1500AD at the moment.

Oh, one more thing - I used my great spy to explore the world, which he was doing quite well, until I accidently clicked on delete unit Darn GOTM and the no-reloading rule!!!

 

[adrianj]

Welcome to the forums WelshGandalf! I hope you're finding lots of great info about the game - I know that I've certainly become much better since joining the Civfanatics community.

Early game wars are all about picking your battles. I'm sure it is no coincidence that our two closest neighbours in this map are Greek and Native American, who both have a unique unit based on the axeman - a unit which eats Jaguar Warriors for breakfast.

It sounds like you are doing a lot of things right though. Getting the Great Wall whilst barbs were pillaging your improvements sounds like a heroic effort .

 

[Xcalibrator]

I've been meaning to post this for weeks, but it's more fun playing...

Nice head fake there, kcd, tricking me into taking the Challenger save! Actually, I made the same mistake a couple games back. It would help avoid confusion if the Starting Saves page had a 3-column table instead of the vertical layout.

Challenger save (Emperor)

Plan: Build the Great Wall and Oracle, build minimal military while I tech to where I can roll over the AIs the proper way with Engineering and trebs. None of this risky rush business for me! (I've never quite gotten the hang of it.) Go for Domination or Conquest if I aim for speed, Space if I want to go for a victory variety where I might have a chance of earliest date from lack of competition.

T0: Move scout SW to silver hill. Well, well! Sheep, floodplains... nice. I decide to move the settler W-SW. This will cost me a turn but the capital will have cows (no chopping needed), silver, sheep, furs, and 3 forests in the BFC and I'll be following my pre-game suggestion . Food isn't great but I'll have more of it sooner than in the standard eastern spot, and more forests to chop for the Oracle, etc.

T1: Capital founded, start worker (15 turns) and Animal Husbandry. An oasis is revealed north of the furs. Scout continues SW-SW. Oooh! 2 more FPs and 2 more silver. T3: Scout goes S and then turns east. Sees gold! That'll make a pretty decent city site down there with 2 silvers, a gold, the shared sheep, and 3 FPs in the BFC.

Scout lost on T23, but he uncovered the nearby gems and horses. The stone he found over by Alex is probably too far for a risk-averse person like me to settle. Hinduism was founded on T10, Buddhism on T17. Judging from his revolt to Slavery, Alex got BW on T31. My capital grows to pop 5 on T37 and 6 on T43 before whipping 2 to finish the Great Wall.

Early builds:

Spoiler :

worker (complete T16)
warrior (25)
Stonehenge (only for a couple turns)
warrior (32--d'oh! Could have started building Great Wall at T26)
Great Wall (46)
Oracle (59)
settler (63)
settler (73)

Techs:

Spoiler :

AH (12)
Mining (20)
Masonry (26)
BW (37)
Meditation (42)
Priesthood (46)
Wheel (50)
Fishing (52)
Pottery (58)
Metal Casting (59, from Oracle)
Math (80)
Sailing (82)
IW (?)
Alphabet (97)
Archery+Polytheism+Agriculture in various trades for Meditation/Priesthood
Construction (108)
HBR (114/50 BC)
Currency (375 AD)
Machinery (520 AD)
Engineering (underway).

When Alphabet is done, Alex demands Meditation. I say "Yes sir! Thank you for not hurting me, sir! (I'll kill you later.)"

Cities:

Spoiler :

#2 on T64, SE with gems, 2 cows, and 3 FPs. Not on the river, so health is somewhat of a hindrance until I get trades going.
#3 on T79/900 BC, NE with horses, forest cows, gems. Settling delayed a few turns because of barbs.
#4 400 BC, SW with 2 silver, shared sheep, gold, 3 FPs.
#5 T134/475 AD, N with sheep, silver, iron.

GPs: Prophet (77) settled in capital, settled a 2nd one, too. I'm still waiting for my first Great Scientist, from my 2nd city. Just haven't had the time or food to run scientists in the capital. I belatedly realize that the spy and priest GP points are going to be a problem. And there isn't really a lot of food anywhere to run a good GP farm.

First barb appears at T45, next to my capital borders. Great Wall completes next turn! I field a perilously weak military for a long time: one warrior in each city and maybe one other out exploring. Around T80 I begin to worry about Alex and start on IW--giving in to his demand for Meditation on T97 buys me time. Instead, Sitting Bull DoWs me on T105. At that point I have 2 jags wandering around, plus the single-warrior garrisons. I got lucky when SB attacked some nearby barbs instead of entering my borders immediately. By T107 the barbs have axes but I now have horses hooked up for chariots. I have some nice techs but nobody can be bribed into a war. T111 was rather hairy, but SB failed to take my 2silver/gold/sheep/FPs city and I move in a couple archers to secure it. Alex, my hero, DoWs SB on T114. I whip some walls in my SE city (gems,FPs) and SB loses 4 units attacking it on T117, giving me a Great General that I use to make a Woody3/Medic1/extra-movement jaguar warlord. I make peace on T123, nothing given nor received.

I don't have a save from 500 AD, but my beaker output certainly isn't as good as in other's posts, and I only had 5 cities (population around 30), though I was getting close to settling another up north to get copper. I've denied several requests to join wars and am preparing to go after Suly, who is the only Buddhist, once I get Engineering. Everyone else is Hindu; it only spread to me in 475 AD. No quests or huts (well, maybe one with some gold?) and only 1 event--I paid some gold to avoid the destruction of a mine.

I won't give away any post-500 info other than to say that things didn't go quite according to plan (so what else is new?).

 

[godotnut]

Challenger Save. Intended victory condition: diplo mostly by sword (with SS as back up plan).

Settled one SW, built worker, warrior, warrior, warrior, warrior, settler (partially whipped), GW, then a library (partially whipped), then I forget.

Settled second city to the SW to get flood plains, gold, sheep, and two silver. Settled third city to the NE for gems, cows, horses. Settled 4th to NW for flood plains and gold. Captured two more cities from barbs for a total of six at 500 AD.

Wonders built: only the GW, but I am currently building GL in double silver city to the SW of capital to counteract Great Spy points in capital. Also built two libraries, three barracks, a couple granaries, about five cats, and several jags. These units are nicely promoted from barbarian warfare, and they will soon be marching on the Ottomans to the NE. Oh, I also built a spy, which I used to explore. At 500AD the spy is on his way to the Ottomans, who I have focused most of my espionage points on for my upcoming war.

Teching is going well, as I have expanded modestly and suffered no pillaging from barbs due to great wall.

I believe my tech order was Agri>AH>Mysticism>Masonry>Writing>Alpha. Then I backfilled some techs from trades, while researching Math>Construction. I actually had construction before Iron Working because no one would trade it for a long time, and I didn't want to slow my research to research it myself, when I knew I wanted Cats for my first major offensive anyway. After Construction, it was Code of Laws (which surprisingly no one had teched yet, so I founded Confucianism)>Aesthetics>Literature (for GL, and the two epics)>Civil Service (for farm spreading mainly, plus bureaucracy). I believe I was a few turns shy of Civil Service at 500 AD.

Aside from a few warriors getting killed needlessly by barbs, I feel like things are going pretty well. I figured my neighbors were either too big of a pain in the ass to hit early (SB and the Greeks) or too far away (everyone else) for an early rush, so I decided to wait for Cats and for all of the gems/silver/gold to get up and running for economy.

Now comes my first big war with the Ottomans, but more on that after 500AD.

 

[MacBalt]

Just curious... what tech did you get from Oracle? If I'm in a game needing lots of military units early, I usually don't bother with it.

It was Feudalism, and it was supposed to facilitate Alex's early capitulation, but... oh well.

GSpies aren't totally useless. You could have stolen 2-3 tech from any AI you infiltrate (much better than an Oracle!). You can also save it for a GOlden Age later. Any other usage is probably kind of worthless, though. But depends on what your goals are, I guess.

Yes, I supposed I did learn that lesson this game. I held onto the first great spy for a long time and eventually got Civil Service (2nd - 1 turn after the original discoverer), Code of Laws, Philosophy, and Calendar all from the same great spy. Not bad given how tech-inept I was during this game.

 

[Airny]

Hi folks,
I played this one on contender.
Didn't play for a long time now and took only 10min t think about strategy.

I lost in 1000BC to an uncivilized horde of barbarians invading my land and pillaging my paradise-like countryside!

Why I lost:
I only built 1 warrior and 2 archer because I was building Great Wall and thought I could finish it before getting overrun. But they pillaged my land around 5 turns before I could've pop-rushed the GW.

Here is how my report:
I built my city 1 SW to get the silver.
1st tech was Meditation, but I was too late...that was a bit of a gamble (even stupid?), I know.
After that I went for Oracle. Got it in 1920BC and took Alphabet. Traded all basic techs and got CoL 5 turns later.
From there on, I built Sacrificial Altar, Archer, Archer, Great Wall (not finished)
I spreaded confucianism to Sitting Bull and had, besides the same religion, a nice early trade route running. I think my position was not too bad. Before the barbs' invasion, I thought about a nice expansion style, then attack Alexander and see how it goes from there.

No, I am not ashamed to have lost. I think it's better to loose due to having too few units than building too much and slowing your game down.

 

[beestar]

Alphabet from Oracle?!

 

[Airny]

Yeah, is it stupid? I was scared to loose the wonder.

 

[beestar]

Well, I'm not saying it's stupid, but it's a significant hammer investment for a tech that isn't worth very many beakers. Oracling Code Of Laws (for example) is riskier but pays off bigger ...

 

[cabert]

Well, I'm not saying it's stupid, but it's a significant hammer investment for a tech that isn't worth very many beakers. Oracling Code Of Laws (for example) is riskier but pays off bigger ...

how is it riskier?
you need writing (same for alphabet) and you have priesthood (or you could not build the oracle)

 

[beestar]

Hmm, did I get my prerequisites wrong? I thought there was something else COL needed that Alphabet didn't.

In that case, COL is Pareto-better than Alphabet.

 

[zamint3]

The goal was domination for a medal....

I build the GW at turn 40, and it was great not having to deal with the barbs except for upgrading units.
Learned that you can only get 10 XP from barbs.

I'm not a warmonger - yet - so as usual I couldn't decide when to attack, so I ended up building...

At around 200bc Alex started building units, and I was sure he would be at my border shortly, so I started a GA and build some units myself, but as seen in the spoiler screenshot from 1AD Alex takes the long road down south to attack Sitting Bull.

Spoiler :

No wars for me before 500AD

 

[cabert]

Hmm, did I get my prerequisites wrong? I thought there was something else COL needed that Alphabet didn't.

yes, it requires priesthood, that you obviously must have to build the oracle anyway

 

[lymond]

Contender Save -

Initially, I had every intent to get the Great Wall and played up to the point of losing it by 1 turn . AARGH!!! It never fails when I do crap like what I did here. I thought for sure I would easily grab the GW with stone and bee-lining. However, prior to start the GW, I had started a Barracks. While building the Great Wall my city grew to a point where the Barrack would finish in 1 turn due to the amount of hammers I had and AGG. So I went ahead and switch to the Barrack and then back to the GW. Well, of course, that was the 1 turn that caused me to miss the GW. This game is so freakin' rigged. Lesson learned: If want a wonder you better damn well build it. Why haven't I learned that by now.

Anyway, so in anger I haven't played it in several weeks, but picked it back up today to play through to 500 AD.

Expansion was rather slow. I settled the cap pretty much in place can't recall now if I moved the settler at all. I expanded with two cities to the NE (horse/gems/stone) and south with cow/horses. Took a barb cow city to the North near Silly and the Gem/Gold city I settled SW - low food though. Bee-lined Currency and actually had was really starting to pull ahead in Techs as I switch into CS.

Put the horse,gem/stone city on the Mids which surprisingly had not been built. I was shuttling units up north to take another barb city that had freakin' 7 archers in it ( the barbs are mad insane this game and seem more intelligent/advanced). Anyway as a result the Mids city was not well defended. As the Mids was getting very close, Alex surprises attacks me with a stack right next to the city in one turn. I whipped another archer, but the city fell. I took it back in a few turns and systematically took out a lot of Alex's units. However, we are still at war as of 500Ad.

The Mids has not been built so I'm still going to try for it. Also try to seal off land to the SE as SB is sending settlers that way.

This is a sloooow game for me. The AI is pretty slow as well. Jags and Archers are doing a decent job of holding off barbs in the west.

All in all this game is pretty darn exciting if not a bit frustrating. I'm still not sure what VC I'm going for but I'm definitely in a war from of mind.

 

[kcd_swede]

Contender Save -

Initially, I had every intent to get the Great Wall and played up to the point of losing it by 1 turn . AARGH!!! It never fails when I do crap like what I did here. I thought for sure I would easily grab the GW with stone and bee-lining. However, prior to start the GW, I had started a Barracks. While building the Great Wall my city grew to a point where the Barrack would finish in 1 turn due to the amount of hammers I had and AGG. So I went ahead and switch to the Barrack and then back to the GW. Well, of course, that was the 1 turn that caused me to miss the GW. This game is so freakin' rigged. Lesson learned: If want a wonder you better damn well build it. Why haven't I learned that by now.

Building any world wonder is a race. Never forget that. If I set my whole strategy on a single wonder, I would even whip it at first chance just to be sure.

But my question for you is "what good did you think that barracks would do you while you are building the GW in that city?"

I don't think you built any units in that city while building the GW. Why take a delay in building GW for something that isn't needed before you finish the GW anyhow?


Note: I used to build everything to completion. But I've learned that this is not always the best way. Complete what you need most, first. Hammer decay is slower than you think.

Particularly things that cost maintenance when finished or tell the AI that you are planning war are good to pre-build -- having a couple military units 1 turn from completion in the queue lets you crank out units 1 turn per unit when you are ready to assault, and the AI won't be able to react to that.

 

[cain3456]

...but wanted to try some old games before going with the BotM to see how I did. Bleh. I need help. Built the GW, it pretty much kept me from being overwhelmed by the hordes. Half of my cities were formerly barbarian, tho Sitting Bull got one by kill-stealing when the RNG was against me.
Mehmet founded Hinduism and now everyone except Huayna and Surya are friendly Hindus. Huayna is the rogue leader of the world, and I got into a phony war with him to support my friends. No battles yet, I'm militarily weak from all the barbs.
Planted a great spy in Bursa, getting ready to steal tech from Mehmet. I am about to get metalcasting after a LONG research time. Chuckling at the AI researching the useless-on-this-map maritime technologies. Oh yeah, I got the libraries quest.
I know that one of my problems is that I don't have enough workers. But how can I build enough workers when I need military to fight the barbs, let alone the other civs?

Sorry, forgot to take a screenie.

 

[kcd_swede]

...but wanted to try some old games before going with the BotM to see how I did. Bleh. I need help. Built the GW, it pretty much kept me from being overwhelmed by the hordes. Half of my cities were formerly barbarian, tho Sitting Bull got one by kill-stealing when the RNG was against me.
Mehmet founded Hinduism and now everyone except Huayna and Surya are friendly Hindus. Huayna is the rogue leader of the world, and I got into a phony war with him to support my friends. No battles yet, I'm militarily weak from all the barbs.
Planted a great spy in Bursa, getting ready to steal tech from Mehmet. I am about to get metalcasting after a LONG research time. Chuckling at the AI researching the useless-on-this-map maritime technologies. Oh yeah, I got the libraries quest.
I know that one of my problems is that I don't have enough workers. But how can I build enough workers when I need military to fight the barbs, let alone the other civs?

Sorry, forgot to take a screenie.

My advice is that you play the current game(s) too. That way people who are more than willing to offer advice can do so. With this game most of us played 5 months ago, its hard to recall what the situation was. Hopefully you can get some useful tips from the spoilers that were written when the game was current.

But how can I build enough workers when I need military to fight the barbs, let alone the other civs?

Usually my first build is a worker. You do have some 20 turns or so before barbs will enter your borders, and that's plenty to get some improvements made, and build a protection unit or two.

I suggest you prioritize Bronze Working early, and convert to slavery as soon as possible, too. A good strategy is to use the first worker to improve food resources, then your growth is fast you can whip production (of say a military unit) and build workers/settlers while letting the slavery unhappiness wear off.

Your first worker can also chop forest to speed production of the second worker and settlers.

And if you need more workers (most say 1.5 workers per city is about right in the early game), you can always use those whipped units to take one from a neighbor.

But this is the kind of advice you can get by reading general strategy articles. If you want specific advice about this game, you probably should play the current game so that people who are playing the same game at the same time can offer advice. Good luck!