BOTM 74 Final Spoiler

[Mitchum]

Nicely done, Jastrow.

I think I landed in 1680 or 1685 but I don't remember for sure. I did conquer the island to the south before going after the English on our own continent because I was just getting too many useful techs from the guy. Plus, I saw all of those Mining Inc resources in the south and I had to have them. By the time I was done with the conquest in the south, England was too advanced due to liberal tech trading so I let him live which was a big mistake.

Before the game started, I told myself I was going to go State Property this game but I went Mining/Sushi instead. The maintenance on the southern continent was initially crippling and set me back quite a bit. I think a State Property game that conquers our starting continent plus one more will take the Space Gauntlet. Maybe that's what C63 did...

 

[Conquistador 63]

In hindsight, I agree with the strategy proposed above, but I did not play a good competitive game - lost an early settler to barbs etc. I got the starting continent and a few overseas barb cities and went corps. Finished around 1740 IIRC.

 

[Jastrow]

Yep, the MM sure were researching like bats out of hell.... I actually got not only rifling (which often happens), but thinks like Artillery from them (indeed, this is what messed up my GA prediction... I picked up about 4 turns worth of techs from the AI at ~turn 200, which is something that never happens at this level...)

BTW, near the end, one of the MM refused to trade ecology because he would "rather win the game".... This was despite him (and all) being friendly with me. Anyone know exactly what that means??

 

[Mitchum]

It means that he had illusions of beating you to Space and didn't want to give you a tech you needed to build your own spaceship parts...

 

[Jastrow]

Well that does not seem very fair... I gave him like 10 techs needed for the space race (sold them for like 100 gc), including things like fussion.

More seriously tho... I though that MM would ALWAYS trade at friendly, ignoring all restrictions. Does he only ignore WFYABTA, and not the other restrictions?

 

[Mitchum]

Mansa won't trade techs if he's started building a wonder that it unlocks...

He also has a WFYABTA limit (base 20 at Noble IIRC) but it's so high that by the time you get there, he's usually already Friendly and Friendly AIs ignore the WFYABTA limit as you said above.

 

[Mitchum]

@ Jastrow

I actually think you had the Gauntlet won by T75 (or whenever it was) when you were able to pull of the CS sling. That gave you a huge bump that most games didn't see until ~20 turns later. Kudos for pulling it off. I recall reading somewhere that if you start on a wonder early enough, the cheating AI will know that you've done so and will not try to build it themselves. I have no idea if this is true or not, but my guess is that you started building it early enough so as to scare the AI away from even trying.

Obviously, you played a very strong game from then on as well so as to keep your lead. I'm impressed!!

1. Did you go State Property or Sushi/Mining Inc.? If the latter, did you just trade for all of the extra copies of corporate resources since you only conquered the starting island?

2. Happiness resources were spread out among the 4 continents. If you did trade for corporate resources, was it hard to also pick up the needed happy/healthy resources?

Thinking back, I think another thing that you did that I failed to do was to target Optics early. I researched Education first and from the first spoiler it sounded like you went Optics first. That was a very smart play on your part. I didn't figure out that everyone else on the map was Mansa until quite a bit later, which is why I was willing to keep my English Mansa alive for so long. Had I known sooner that there would be a ton of trading partners out there, I would have likely taken out English Mansa. As I said before, by the time I considered it, he was too strong because of all of the techs I had fed him.

I'm considering trying this game again to see if I can:

1. Match your awesome start that included not just the CS sling but also very strong REX PLUS an early war buildup for the English. I think you beat me in the start in all aspects hands down.

2. Go for Optics before Education. This is a bit of a "cheat" since we already know that there are Mansas everywhere, but you correctly went Optics first so I'm going to assume that I'd be smart enough to do the same... I know it's a stretch.

3. Screw trying to cultivate a 100% GE. Go State Property and get a bunch of early GSs to speed up research on the Communism beeline via bulbing.

4. Capture 2 full continents for ~50% of the land and win.

I doubt that this will break the 1600 barrier but it might come close. I wish WT had gone for Space because I think we might have seen something special. Hopefully Neilmeister, Pollina or someone else will come through with a very early win, not because I want to see us get destroyed but because I want to see what was possible without having to replay it myself.

 

[Jastrow]

According to my pre-play plan, I was starting the Oracle on T50. I am pretty sure that would be true for the game as well, +- one turn, but I dont remember explicitely. Wether that was early enough to influence AI choices, I dont know, but I doubt it, since that is 2000 BC, and from the dates reported, in others' games, the AI must already have been building by then.

1. I went mining/sushi (in that order), and traded my spare resources (including all oil and uranium) for what I could get in extra resources. I never got all of them, but had enough seafood that I was crashing into health/happy everywhere... A couple more metals would have been nice, of course.

2. I got a decent amount of the health/happy. I think I was missing two of them by the end. Being willing to give up Oil, Uranium, marble, stone, etc... I was able to get a lot in trade.

3b.... Yes, I got lucky with my great-persons, since I never cultivated any pure idustry founders... I had a 55% and a 40% shot at Engineers (I dont remember for sure, but I think I got both. One for sure, which is all I needed), and the Merchant shots were two at about 80% (so that was reasonably safe)... I got beaten to economics BTW.


I think 1600 (with hindsight) is definitly possible, at least if you get lucky on the Oracle... It means cutting 14 turns of my time... I know I botched on in the golden-age timing, and another one from over-building near the end. I also did something dumb with religions in the middle, and ended up running no religion for a while despite a religious civic. That certainly cost me a turn... Lets say that I can get 4 turns from optimizing... One needs to cut 10 more turns.

I took England out very poorly... As you know, my warring is far from efficient, and I am sure that a competant warrior would have saved 3 to 5 turns there...

Then comes the big one... My corps were started around turn 200, and I stopped warring altogether... A talented warrior could surely have annexed at least a quarter, an maybe half of another continent from that point... That might have increased my research (including the capture gold) by something like 15%, taking another 6 or so turns off...

So I can imagine myself, with perfect hindsight, and a lot of war luck, taking it down to right around 1600... The better players can surely knock another 10 turns of that, taking it down to 1550.

 

[ReallyEvilMuff]

Submitted my BOTM first game. Space at 1832, but should have been much better.

I had a really good start, settling 1SE and then second on the stone quickly. I managed to grab mono and do a CS slingshot. I kept Mansa VIII down stealing his first 2 workers, and DOWed him around 1000AD, taking his little back island in a second war by 1100.

Then I kinda just stagnated. I'm very much more used to teamer games online or the occasional FFA so I rarely play past rifles - in hindsight perhaps a conquest/diplo victory would have been better to go for. I dislike tech trading and realise that I am rather gollumesque when trading techs... They are MY precious technologies!

I also had a few stupid errors like accidentally settling my first GP rather than building a shrine, smashing through to banking because online no one has open borders - simple things that I just didn't think.

I lost lib being greedy and have never really used the corporations/state property before so I kinda shifted between both not sure which was best.

I also got bored and did an amphibious assault which netted me a couple of cities but really that probably slowed me down as my heart wasn't in it.

I'm sure if I gave someone my 1000BC save they could probably do space by 1650, maybe even 1600.

I'm also interested in how many peoples games were so peaceful - for the last 50-100 turns I was the only mansa not in war!

A side note - my computer restarted with its antivirus background check in 1670. I didn't gain anything from it but just a heads up.

 

[Falabello]

Ah, looks like I might have just missed the slowest diplo prize too then . 1806.

but when Caesar built the UN in 1780, I was easily elected Secretary General and was then given a Diplomatic victory in 1808.

Yep, for now this slowest award belongs to me ...

But I'm not sad with this result. I'm indeed upset. In this game things happened very slowly, and I know that I could have done better .

Compass: 860AD - Optics: 1010AD - Astronomy: 1150AD - So terrible !

The first war was, obviously, against Mansa VIII, in 680 AD (peace in 1110AD). Another war to get more two cities in 1320AD (peace in 1390AD). The second was just an attempt: in 1530AD I declared against Monsazuma, but knowing that I would not have power to destroy him (by my awful performance to get Astro and the Galleons). I took Tenochtitlan with Cuirassiers and ceased the fire. After that my target changed to Space, and I started the way to build my rocket. In that journey I felt that Diplo would be possible too, and focused in both conditions. With three defensive pacts I realized that this was a great mistake (others AIs didn't like this bad idea). This situation lasted for some elections, till I disrupted it. And so, little by little, I got more Mansas friends !

Even with this result, I'm gradually improving and feeling that I can change my confort zone

But in the end, having to deal with glance to manage Diplo each turn, those Mansa's faces drove me crazy ! Please Deckhand, not again !!!

 

[Deckhand]

But in the end, having to deal with glance to manage Diplo each turn, those Mansa's faces drove me crazy ! Please Deckhand, not again !!!

hmmn, but there was generally such positive feedback

I did learn a lesson from neil's game where all the AIs were India, either Asoka or Gandhi - at least I gave them unique names.

 

[Jastrow]

Agreed with Deckhand... As long as the names are Unique, this is fine... It takes a couple of time to get into the habit of looking at the name when someone contacts you, instead of reacting instinctively to the face, but that is a very minor hurdle to get over. The extra scenario opertunities availble from repeating AI's is much more valuable than that very tiny negative.

 

[WastinTime]

But in the end, having to deal with glance to manage Diplo each turn, those Mansa's faces drove me crazy ! Please Deckhand, not again !!!

Careful what you wish for. They could be all Toku faces! like they were in the SGotM.

 

[Folket]

I finished this game at last. I planed for an military victory. But it took so long to fight so I decided to end the game with UN instead.

I guess handling naval transports is just to demanding for me.

Diplomatic victory in 1866.

 

[jesusin]

jesusin, contender. Goal: Fastest Cultural Victory. Result: 1510AD cultural victory.

Before 1AD: Failed CS sling and left with just 2 religions. Pyramids in.
09 built in tundra, 2Deer, Horses. No better place available.
Parthenon in. Sistine's in. Capital generation pool is ruined with Pyara, HG, Moai. I get two GE.
MoM in. NE in.
Launch GoldenAge1 with GE.
Liberalism for Natio 780AD. Instant build TAjMah with GE for GoldenAge 2. 5 cathedrals built.
Hermitage in. UoS in.

1000AD Stats: 9 cities, 92 pop, 8 workers, 9units (5Swo), 5 strategic resources, 4 luxury resources, 6 health resources, 8 great people, 7 world wonders, 3 national wonders, food/production/commerce=188-70-2145, 200 sustainable beakers per turn, 1275 culture per turn(useful), 450 great person points per turn, 400 gold. 2 religions. 13/15 cottages used, 41Techs: Natio, Liber, Music, Guilds, no Compass. 0 civs killed. reli/city, temples, caths== 18,18,6 in Golden Age

Mercantilism 1040AD.

I made a good work of ordering the cities so that every one of them popped a GA, most 2 GA.
I get a third GE . Fianl victory date is delayed 6 turns. I use him with free GM from Economy on a third GoldenAge.

Cultural Victory 1410AD. Multipliers 4-3-3, bombs 0-7-8, base cpt 175-165-115. 1GS Acad, 2GE+GM used in Gages, GE used for TajMah, 15 GA bombed, total 20GP, two of them for free.



I love playing Spiritual civs. Changing back and forth between Castes and slavery allows border pops and early GPs while whipping to your heart content.

 

[Jastrow]

Indeed, on Spiritual... I am actually starting to think it is the strongest of all the traites.

-"free" border pops (not 100% free, but with timed whipping cycles, nearly.)
-Starve-grow cycles in your GP farm allows you to bassicaly run Philosophical, and still get like a thirsd of free religion for "free"
-You get something like 90% of the benifites of slavery, and 60 of those of caste.
-You can cycle through the econimic civics as you learn each of them, for a small benifit on the way to your civic of choice.
-If going to space, free swape to hammer from towns for the final build.
-Diplomacy trics with favorit civics+shared religion as needed.
-In an emergency, you can get the war civics as needed.
-Plus, the direct saving of typically 5 or 6 turns of anarchy which you would have in a normal game from the initial civic and religion changes.

I think it is overall amazing, and possibily the least situational of the traits. With so many things it does for you, it is simply always great!

 

[Folket]

Indeed, on Spiritual... I am actually starting to think it is the strongest of all the traites.

-"free" border pops (not 100% free, but with timed whipping cycles, nearly.)
-Starve-grow cycles in your GP farm allows you to bassicaly run Philosophical, and still get like a thirsd of free religion for "free"
-You get something like 90% of the benifites of slavery, and 60 of those of caste.
-You can cycle through the econimic civics as you learn each of them, for a small benifit on the way to your civic of choice.
-If going to space, free swape to hammer from towns for the final build.
-Diplomacy trics with favorit civics+shared religion as needed.
-In an emergency, you can get the war civics as needed.
-Plus, the direct saving of typically 5 or 6 turns of anarchy which you would have in a normal game from the initial civic and religion changes.

I think it is overall amazing, and possibily the least situational of the traits. With so many things it does for you, it is simply always great!

I do not understand the border pops part.

 

[nocho]

^ I guess he refers to being in caste for a short spell in order to hire an artist, even at size 1, to get you a border pop in 3 turns.

 

[Jastrow]

Exactly... If you time/synchronize your whips correctly at the start, you get several opertunities to change into caste for 5 turns for free. During those 5 turns, you can run a specialist artist for 3 turns in each city where you need a border pop... Yes, is not quite free, since you are "wasting" 3 turns of worker a tile for the artist, but this is usually an unimprooved tile, and 3 turns of that for a border pop is near enough free for me.

 

[haphazard1]

Just what Jastrow described. I got a ton of use out of this exact pattern to get easy border pops for my later cities (about #5 and later). You do have to reach Code of Laws first so it does not help your earliest cities, but compared to building monuments it is a fantastic way to get that first border pop.

I don't think spiritual is the strongest trait -- financial provides more total benefit in most game situations, I think. But spiritual is probably the best trait for maximum flexibility.