BOTM 97 - Frederick - First Spoiler (1AD)

[DynamicSpirit]

BOTM 97 First Spoiler

Use this thread to tell us what happened in your game, up to 1AD! How did you find playing on a crowded map? Did you go to war or did you find enough land without taking any from other Civs?

Stop! If you are participating in BOTM 97, then you MUST NOT read this thread unless EITHER

• You have reached at least 1 AD in your game, OR
• You have submitted your entry

Posting Restrictions

• Please do not disclose ANY events or information gained post 1 AD.
• Please do not reveal your final result if that happened after 1 AD.
• Please do not discuss the location of resources that may not show up before 1 AD. (Iron is OK, coal and oil are not)
• Please do not reveal names or locations of any civilization not accessible by galleys.
• Do not post any savegame file from the game. Discussions and screenshots are fine but not actual games

 

[Seraiel]

Ok, so I need to post everything again, because I pressed "preview" instead of "submit reply" and then went elsewhere .

1. It's hard to believe for me, that I should really be the first, posting about his game in this thread. There must be others, that already have reached 1AD, so come'on, post, you play GOTM because of the competition you get via the community. If you want no community, but just competition, you could just play normal games and compete against yourself, competing against yourself is the hardest competition possible anyhow.

2. My game:

I settled 1E, because I didn't want my capital to have that many water-tiles. Result was, that I now have one less source of food and that MOAI won't be that powerful . I actually suspected a Mining-resource to be in the east, because looking at some of the last GOTMs, not settling in place afaik was often rewarded with a Gold or anything. Well, doesn't matter, having 3 sources of food is more than can be managed in the beginning anyhow, and it's also enough. I even shared the Sheep with my 2nd city and worked them mostly from there because of happiness issues.

I went for a 3-city-GLH-opening and got the GLH in 1160BC . This is the 1st time in my life, that I play CIV on Monarch, so I have no idea if this was lucky or not. In hindsight, a 2-city opening with earlier GLH would probably have been better.
I expanded to 6 cities peacefully, which imo was REX, given how poor the map was. My capital built basically all the Settlers, because the other cities were busy with building the tons of Workboats that were needed aswell as 2 additional Workers (3 Workers in total for 6 cities) aswell as some basic Stuff like Granaries and Lighthouses. The map being crouded was np, 8 civs on a small map really are a lot, but as AI doesn't adept well on islands-maps, there's still enough place for me to probably even peacefully expand to 10 cities. More problematic was / is, to get decent locations. Look at the following screen, which I made for you:



I'm honest and admit, that I didn't expect to get 200BPT+ 'til 1AD on this map either, but it makes me a little proud. Generally, the game is really very slow, in my HoF-games, I'm not seldomly somewhere around Gunpowder / Chemistry at 1AD, this time, I don't even have Education yet though. I like this new sort of challenge though, and I'm trying to adept to it.
As a victory condition I chose Space, because the map has lots of Corporation-resources, Frederick is one of the top three leaders for Space (Incans excluded) and I just love Space-races, as they're sort of a "special discipline" in CIV for me, being the only real games, that go 'til the end.

I'm curious towards the next posts, and who'll decide to go for Conquest .

& .

 

[nocho]

Ok, I'll share the proceedings until 1AD.

At 1AD I'm at 9 cities, although only 30 pop. Settled in place, mined the sheep early on. Thanks to the hint I found the Christmas area up north early enough and managed to settle 3 cities up there before any AI could. Maybe the time needed to sail up there hampered overall pop-growth a bit, although now things look like they'll snowball nicely. Suspected circumnavigation would be possible early and was not let down, got that in 850BC. Around the same time got the Great Lighthouse too, which obviosuly is a must-have on this map. It looks virtually impossible to have any landlocked cities on this map.

Some things went surprisingly early for a monarch game, Isabella got Oracle in 1840BC and Music in 75 BC. Willem founded Taoism in 250 BC. The Event RNG didn't particularly like me with some improvements destroyed, but nothing too tragic.

About to finish the Great Library and starting on Paper. Got a trade mission from a GM in the ToA city of Moscow. Currently running 213 bpt at a deficit of 77 gpt, but can maintain that rate for a while with 1229 in the bank. Looks like there's room for at least 4 or 5 (island) cities more. Also contemplating space here.

 

[smitsk00]

Settled in place. Popped Mysticism. Teched Fishing, BW, Masonry and then went for CS slingshot with a detour for the Wheel which probably lost me the Oracle.

Only settled 4 cities so far. 2nd 1S of the northern Mt.to include the Bronze, 3rd 1N of the horses, 4th 1S of the eastern Mt.

GLib soon in my capital, and I plan on building Colossus in Bronze city to help support a quick REX and then a post Astronomy war. Maybe Parth/MoM since there is Marble.

Detour to Calendar and MC has me still 9 turns from CS.

Thinking about going dom/space since I may decide to super specialist the capital.

 

[Seraiel]

@ nocho: 9 cities really needed to make me think, because I found my 6 already quite hard to get. Did you build any Wonders in addition to the GLH, and / or did you go to war early?

Seraiel

 

[nocho]

No wars, no other wonders. I SIPd, so four 5-yield tiles, which gave me enough leeway to spam some settlers.

 

[Xcalibrator]

You make me sad. SIP, 6 cities, 32 pop, no wonders, but academy in capital plus GLib in 4. 3 mainland cities, 2 on the islands to the NW, one way up north on the gold with silver, gems, and 4 fish. 520 in score =1st by a little.128 bpt @100%, 90 bpt at breakeven =70%, Metal Casting in 4 turns aiming for Colossus. If I stick it out to finish, probably going Dom starting with the Dutch.

Anybody else have a dang bear moseying around up in the NE at the start for like 50 turns? My scout had to be very patient before exploring that skinny extension to the east, waiting for the bear to die.

 

[Seraiel]

No wars, no other wonders. I SIPd, so four 5-yield tiles, which gave me enough leeway to spam some settlers.

Thx. Settling 1E really was an error. I thought about 1NE too, which would have given me Horses in the capital but I would have missed out on 2 food. DynamicSpirit will love to hear this: It's really mean, to punish intuition that hard ^^ . Can't tell about you, but my intuition told me, that landlocking the capital is an advantage, that there's a good chance for a resource 2E and that 4 food are really too much. Result of this is, that I have 1 Forest less, lost 1T for moving, claimed some awesome Plains, have 1 less resource of food and Moai won't be as powerful, as it could have been. But don't think, that this would make me give up. While 9 cities are a very powerful base, I slightly suspect, that you also only created 1GP 'til now, because if you would have gotten a Great Scientist and have an Academy, I'd think that you'd have even more BPT with 9 cities. Maybe I misjudge things, but I believe, that you not having a 2nd wonder is not the only thing that you miss. I i. e. also think, that you didn't get the Music-first, because you wrote that "it went crazy early at 75BC" . All those major differences in strategy but also the course of events in the game could make the final results and the corresponding writeup very interesting .

 

[Seraiel]

You make me sad. SIP, 6 cities, 32 pop, no wonders, but academy in capital plus GLib in 4. 3 mainland cities, 2 on the islands to the NW, one way up north on the gold with silver, gems, and 4 fish. 520 in score =1st by a little.128 bpt @100%, 90 bpt at breakeven =70%, Metal Casting in 4 turns aiming for Colossus. If I stick it out to finish, probably going Dom starting with the Dutch.

Anybody else have a dang bear moseying around up in the NE at the start for like 50 turns? My scout had to be very patient before exploring that skinny extension to the east, waiting for the bear to die.

1. I understood you being sad because of the difference in BPT. That one is mostly related to nocho and me having the GLH. I only built the GLH because I suspected that it might be very powerful, how powerful it turned out on this map though, is a new insight into the game for me. In HoF, the difference that GLH makes isn't that tremendous, because everybody starts with 2 Golds most of the time and games are morely decided by how successful the early rush is. All of this is completely different in this game, early rush basically impossible due to seperation of water and only 1 Mining-Commerce-resource in a location without food.

2. Yes, that Bear also caused me a slight shock ^^ . I beat him with moving my Scout onto a forested tile to lure him and had a Warrior right behind the Scout planning to finish the Bear with him should the Scout not win. I'm very grateful, that that strategy worked, but had a slight shock when I realized, that my Warrior actually attacked with only 75% chances and that it'd be impossible for me to start over ^^ . Things like that make GOTM very interesting though, because now I know, that I should have built 2 Warriors as backup in that situation. All of this is very different to the HoF, because almost all games are played without Barbs there, so no need for even 1 Warrior early. Learning about those differences I find very interesting, it's a little like playing a different game.

 

[nocho]

Thx. Settling 1E really was an error. I thought about 1NE too, which would have given me Horses in the capital but I would have missed out on 2 food. DynamicSpirit will love to hear this: It's really mean, to punish intuition that hard ^^ . Can't tell about you, but my intuition told me, that landlocking the capital is an advantage, that there's a good chance for a resource 2E and that 4 food are really too much. Result of this is, that I have 1 Forest less, lost 1T for moving, claimed some awesome Plains, have 1 less resource of food and Moai won't be as powerful, as it could have been. But don't think, that this would make me give up. While 9 cities are a very powerful base, I slightly suspect, that you also only created 1GP 'til now, because if you would have gotten a Great Scientist and have an Academy, I'd think that you'd have even more BPT with 9 cities. Maybe I misjudge things, but I believe, that you not having a 2nd wonder is not the only thing that you miss. I i. e. also think, that you didn't get the Music-first, because you wrote that "it went crazy early at 75BC" . All those major differences in strategy but also the course of events in the game could make the final results and the corresponding writeup very interesting .

I also contemplated settling 1E and probably would have if it hadn't cost a turn. As it was it turned out ok, for instance having that clam hooked up for the bronze city upon settling was good. Surprised to see btw you settled SW rather than W of the bronze, no big deal but I fancied the extra hammers from the hill. Another difference is I settled 2nd city SE of horse so it had 3 strong tiles in the first ring. No need for border pops early and helped expansion.

Indeed my expansion (which really wasn't that impressive either..) went at the cost of generating GP, so that's why I didn't have an academy yet. However, with no shinies nor hardly any cottages, I felt the academy wasn't as important early as just settling more GLH boosted cities. Instant 8 commerce just from trade routes isn't that much less than the academy boost and may quickly overtake it here. So my 2nd city where normally you get your first GS from was also busy spamming settlers and workers (had 6 btw). Anyway, in part that was also because I happened to find the Christmas area relatively soon so gave that priority. If I hadn't, probably would've done things slightly differently. In any case GLib was due in 4 turns, so that GS wouldn't take too long after that.

Missing music was surprising, but of course not that much I could've done about it. Seems Isabella pretty much beelined it in my game. Normally AIs are of course reluctant to tech aesthetics and on monarch normally music is save until the early ADs.

I popped a 2nd scout from the hut btw, so no trouble in checking the NE isthmus and leaving one there to fogbust a bit.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Ok, so I need to post everything again, because I pressed "preview" instead of "submit reply" and then went elsewhere .

He he. Thanks for taking the trouble to re-post. It was an interesting write-up. FWIW, if I'm posting something that takes more than a minute or so to write, I normally take a copy of my post (ctrl+A ctrl+C to copy it all to the clipboard on Windows) just in case something goes wrong when I try to post it all.

I settled 1E, because I didn't want my capital to have that many water-tiles. Result was, that I now have one less source of food and that MOAI won't be that powerful . I actually suspected a Mining-resource to be in the east, because looking at some of the last GOTMs, not settling in place afaik was often rewarded with a Gold or anything.

Perhaps I should clarify, when creating maps, we do not try to reward any particular strategy. So trying to 2nd-guess the mapmaker when you're deciding where to settle is probably not going to help you. If you have been told what script has been used to generate the map, then that might give you some additional insight in guessing what is likely to be around, but really you should make your decision based on the tiles you can see and on carefully choosing where to move the scout before you settle.

The only things that guide me when I'm fiddling with the starting area on a map are that:

1. Personally, I'm conscious that bad luck settling the capital can potentially have a huge impact on a game, and for that reason, I normally try to make sure there is no possibility for people to be misleadingly lured into settling sites that are actually really dire. Even there, it sometimes goes wrong because people find reasons to settle in a particular spot that would never have occurred to me! (As an aside, that's one reason why I find the where-everyone-settled maps so fascinating).
2. And I also quite like to give people a choice, with different spots having different potential advantages - as I think that makes for a more interesting game than if one single spot is obviously so good that that is where everyone is going to decide to settle.

Different mapmakers obviously will work in different ways, but as far as I'm aware none of the current mapmakers' approaches differ from mine in those regards. Bottom line: If you want to settle wisely, then use your knowledge of Civ and what you can see of the starting area. Don't waste time trying to guess what the mapmaker might be trying to get you to do, because the mapmaker probably wasn't trying to get you to do anything except play Civ as well as you can! (Although having said that, it's worth paying attention to any clues about the map that have been given in the description of the game in the game announcement thread. If the mapmaker does want to draw your attention to something, that's where the information will be. For example, in this game I gave you a pretty strong clue that there was a potential advantage to be had in exploring North with your workboats).

In this game, personally I don't think there was much to choose between in-place and 1E. 1E gives you a bit less food and a bit more production, and more possibility for building cottages to make a high-science capital later in the game. In most of my test games, I chose 1E, and didn't particularly regret it, although it does make settling more cities on your starting land-mass more cramped. Most of the additional tiles you get by settling 1E are plains - not brilliant - but it should be possible to discover that with the scout, using the two turns the scout gets to move before you make the final decision to settle 1E.

I'm honest and admit, that I didn't expect to get 200BPT+ 'til 1AD on this map either, but it makes me a little proud. Generally, the game is really very slow, in my HoF-games, I'm not seldomly somewhere around Gunpowder / Chemistry at 1AD, this time, I don't even have Education yet though. I like this new sort of challenge though, and I'm trying to adept to it.

I would say that having 200bpt, education and gunpowder by 0AD would be a remarkable achievement in most games (whether in GOTM, or on typical game-generated maps). That kind of science is sometimes reported, but only normally by our very top players. Personally I normally feel very pleased with myself if I can even get 100bpt sustainable by 1AD.

 

[Seraiel]

Settling 1W of the Copper for more from the hill is an interesting thought, but not settling 1SW leaves the Copper-city with 1 less food. I didn't settle the 2 Clams with the 2nd city, because I suspected the land to be more heavily contested by the AIs, so I thought that I'd better have 1 good and 1 medicore city instead of 1 superb city. Settling the 2nd city N and not SE of the Horses also unlocked the possibility to share the Sheep and thereby push the city that needs more food for something or stall the growth of a city to control whipping-anger more easily.

A side-effect of how I settled also is, that I have no problems getting the 5 necessary Universities for Oxford at the same time. Capital has np with that anyhow, 2nd city was strong but needed to build the HGs on top, 3rd city was ok, all equal timing. 4th city again was stronger so could make up for being settled later, 5th claimed the Stone and 6th was the superstrong 3 food island-city which I pushed with Workboats from the capital so it could catch up for being settled so late.

I agree with you on the Academy being not as important as i. e. 3 additional cities with GLH, but getting the buildings that I mentioned is very important for me or in my opinion. Oxford can conduct as much research as 4-5 cities and I somehow already spoiled for what I need / want the HGs. I currently cannot write more, because otherwise, I'd start giving away things that are to my disadvantage . I'd also like more players to report about their games. Impossible, that only 3 players played 'til 1 AD yet, because that would mean, that we could simply collect the rewards next time by agreeing about who goes for which victory. Like I wrote, if you don't value the community, you basically don't have to play GOTM, and as you see, competing friendly is possible ^^ . I always like how they see that in Golf, when they say that people play with and not against each other.

 

[pigswill]

Played fast and sloppy up to 1ad. Got 7 cities, pop 31, 150bpt @100%. Early Glite (1560bc). Beelined engineering, got in 50ad, researching feudalism, maybe try some warfare.

 

[Frederiksberg]

9 cities, 28 pop, 169 bpt. at 25 BC

Missed the Oracle but got the GLH. My plan was to go for conquest or domination but I missed the circumnavigation and without fast boats I should probably look for some other VC. Space is out, haven't built a single cottage. Perhaps a diplomatic victory of some sort?

I see now I should have read the game intro. Didn't find the icy wonderland before Napoleon and he grabbed the best spot by the lake. Maybe I should take it from him

 

[Seraiel]

9 cities, 28 pop, 169 bpt. at 25 BC

Missed the Oracle but got the GLH. My plan was to go for conquest or domination but I missed the circumnavigation and without fast boats I should probably look for some other VC. Space is out, haven't built a single cottage. Perhaps a diplomatic victory of some sort?

I see now I should have read the game intro. Didn't find the icy wonderland before Napoleon and he grabbed the best spot by the lake. Maybe I should take it from him

Don't worry too much about the missing Cottages, I built exactly 3 of them on the riverside-tiles of the capital and will go for Hammer-economy, as Corporations and Hammer-economy is the strongest choice I know of. Still, you imo. should learn something about how powerful cottaging the capital and combining it with a Buro-Academy-Oxford capital is. The capital can sometimes conduct more than 50% of the total research, if you neglect it, you refrain yourself from its unique power.

Diplo is probably a good choice. With Frederick being PHI, you can bulb a lot on the path with GSs. Consider generating a GE to 1T-build the UN. I don't want to self-advertise, but this video could help you a lot. It's only 4h long and features a full game with that strategy. I put a lot of work into its explanatory comment and believe I did quite well. At least I hope that ^^ .

 

[Seraiel]

I don't understand, why so few people post about their games. You need to post yourself and if possible, try to make a little effort and try to not post "I wasn't motivated at all, so I played bad, and I don't care" ! Make screenshots of your games, draw in others, if more players compete, the competition becomes a lot better for everybody, and that includes you. Try to understand the following:

"If you reach a new level as a gamer, gaming itself will change, because your own perception will change. The best possible result, is, that it'll "renew" the game that you're playing, it'll give you new motivation, because it's like playing a new game. Even in the case where you switch from one game towards another one, you'll keep most of your level, and every few levels, you'll unlock a new dimension of gaming."

As I wrote, I don't know where the problem to so few players posting is, but for me, it's very important and very valuable to compete with other players. The simple fact, that I now know, that nocho is competing for the same type of victory, has greatly changed my game, I'm much more motivated, play more carefully and every positive event happening in my game is fun to me. With more of those events happening because I play more focussedly, the fact that noto competes with me has made my own game more fun. To me, the community is one of the most important things, because on myself, I'd just be happy like I am. Then, everything would stay the same for me forever though, nullifying most feelings of excitement and also my thinking wouldn't develop. Playing the same game, would get more and more boring, and switching towards the next game and the next, I'd reach the same (or worse) amount of boredom faster and faster. Feeling excitement while playing is something positive though, and games staying interesting and making fun are positive aswell. Something of this you must understand, because you've taken the same decision that I took, and chose to play competetively and not against a non-existent AI. Unless you play for the sole reason to rank #1, you'll know, that more competition means more of whatever you seek. Winning may make happy some time, but it'll become pure exertion once you're good enough. If you try to play the best game you can though, you'll be constantly motivated though. You need to do something yourself to keep gaming enjoyable for you. Maybe you'll learn how valuable it actually is, if you'll play such outstanding games, that you'll still remember having played them in years. Maybe you'll also learn something completely different, something that's more important for you. For me, one of the things I most remember is, with whom I played. There are gamers, I hope to not lose contact to for my whole life, because the things I learned from them are so valuable. What I wrote about oneself needing to do something to keep gaming interesting for oneself though, you can trust that that's true, and there are more positive things possible to learn from this post aswell.

 

[nocho]

Your enthusiasm and energy are laudable and in essence I guess I agree with you.

One wonders though who this noto might be. In any case, with dedicated play I guess you'll handily beat me, one of my weak points is playing a bit too hastily.

 

[Seraiel]

Your enthusiasm and energy are laudable and in essence I guess I agree with you.

One wonders though who this noto might be. In any case, with dedicated play I guess you'll handily beat me, one of my weak points is playing a bit too hastily.

TY .

noto is actually a really good Deity-player aswell, but I ofc. ment you nocho ^^ . Post corrected.

[EDIT]

I have the opposite problem btw., I play so slowly, that I'm not 100% sure if I'll be able to finish the game in time. I know, it's still 19d and we're all in the ADs, but 1AD to maybe (guessed) 1600-1700AD are a lot more turns, and with an empire growing and especially war, single turns can become very long. I really played very harshly yesterday and at the end of the day, I had finished exactly 11 turns.

 

[Falabello]

Well, I choose another way: WAR!

6 cities (four built and two from Willem). 31 pop. 74bpt/100%/-23g. 40bpt/60%/+3g. Metal Casting in 4t. Only two Workers. No Wonders... 508 in score - #1.

The bear: after exploring a liitle my scout returned and died on the top of a hill, and then my Warrior attacked with 97% and... died too ! Next Warrior went and found the Bear well damaged...

Units for War: 5 Galleys (lost 1) - 5 Cats (lost 3) - 1 Chariot - 2 Spears - 6 Axes (lost 1) - 3 Swords. Next step will be to raze the last Dutch city (Another Settler 1W to grab the two fishes).

The idea (after #1 War) is regroup the survivors, add more units and Galleys and to attack the Americans (Roosevelt), but I think he is close to Feudalism. If it's the case my units will abort the mission waiting for reinforcements. Anyway, my Tech path will be to Engineering (to add Trebs) and after Maces... My target is Conquest!

But I will stop for now - it's time to sleep . And, logically, losing some sleepiness time untill my mind stop thinking about strategies...

 

[Falabello]

I forgot the screenshot: