Hmm, could it be that the master in your example already hates you enough to consider war with you, and accepts the capitulation as payment for joining the fun?
In that case I guess the cure is simple - stay friends with the top dogs.
Why would someone who likes you instantly go to war with you just because they've vassalised your current target? I find this to be impossible to combat, other than to take over the world pre-vassalisation.
I feel I must be missing something here. Is this how it works? My memory may be hazy, and BtS may be different, but I seem to recall otherwise. Also the mechanic you describe would be horribly broken, that's certainly not how it should work, so I can't help but wonder if you've missed something.
For instance in WOTM14 I was fighting Stalin and signed in Napoleon, and a bunch of turns later when Stalin became Napoleon's vassal I found myself automatically at peace with both - very frustrating since I was gearing up for a push on Stalin's capitol, but no where near as frustrating as a war with Napoleon would have been.
And in this game I declared on Hatty, had Hammurabi declare on me in response (DP), and signed in Mansa against both of them. A number of turns later I first vassalized Hatty, which forced Mansa into peace with her, and then Mansa did the same with Hammurabi, which forced me into peace with him. Being forced into war with my best buddy Mansa at either of those occurences would have been rather ridiculous - who would ever ask for capitulation then?
Indeed, Harbourboy has it right. When you are at war with Civ A, and Civ A is only at war with you, then if A offers to surrender to anybody other than you, then the accepting Civ B is then placed automatically at war with you, the aggressor against B's new vassal. However, if Civ A is at war with both you AND Civ B, then if he vassalizes to either of you, the other one is locked into peaceful relations.
Niklas, in all of your examples, Civ B was bribed into war against Civ A by you, thus enacting the requirements that vassalizing will result in a peace treaty. If you ever have a civ offer to capitulate to you for no apparent reason, make sure that they are not at war with anyone...or you'll basically declare war on that civ.
Indeed, Harbourboy has it right. When you are at war with Civ A, and Civ A is only at war with you, then if A offers to surrender to anybody other than you, then the accepting Civ B is then placed automatically at war with you, the aggressor against B's new vassal.
Did you have Feudalism at the time?
Why didn't you vassalise your enemy the turn before he vassalised to another civ? You are always given the opportuninity. You have to be alert and check every turn, though.
Because it's always redded out. I never get the option. I check all the time because I am so conscious of when it is about to happen the other way around.
I just think it's silly that this situation leads to unavoidable war for 10 turns. Surely the new master should negotiate a way out of the war as a first action.
I settled 2N. Built a Totem Pole in Cahokia and tried to Archer rush Hatty in 2160 BC. Her cities were too well defended for me, but I was able to keep her Horses pillaged while I built some Dog Soldiers, and captured Thebes in 1400 BC. I declared on Darius next turn, sending a secondary force to capture and raze a nearby city.
Meanwhile my main force marched from Thebes back to the west, heading for Hatty's new capital: the Jewish holy city of Memphis. It was built on a hill and proved impregnable. I decided to march my battle-hardened troops right past it, combine with my small army in Persia, and attack Persepolis. But then when I opened communications with Hatty to check how many other cities she had, I somehow misclicked and signed a Cease Fire. This booted my strongest army back east, to Thebes, requiring them to spend a good 10 turns walking around Egyptian territory and into Persia. By the time they were in position Darius had Immortals and my chances of gaining further ground were over. I made peace.
I almost immediately went after Hatty again, in 775 BC. Cultural pressure from Memphis was rendering Thebes useless, so she simply had to go. However, my plan of overwhelming her with Dog Soldiers was not a good one. Or at least not a successful one. My assault on Memphis failed and the war dragged on a long time as I pillaged and generally tied her down until I developed Catapults to reduce her city defenses. I finally captured Memphis in 250 AD, and Hattys last city in 540 AD. Heliopolis was an excellently sited city surrounded by rivers, sugar, spices, and horses.
While all of this was going on Id only settled one additional city, near where we originally started with 2 Fish 2 Deer 1 Fur and Copper. This became my Great Person farm. By tying down Hatty for so long there was still a lot of territory to settle in the east, and I moved quickly to grab it. But not quickly enough to stop Mansa from nabbing some choice territory in the far northeast. I did grab hold of everything else east and south of Thebes, however.
By now a fast military game was clearly out of reach so I tooled up for a Space Race instead. Thus most of my new cities were sited for maximum cottaging, etc. Mansa was big and would definitely be a problem, though. I hit upon the idea of trying to catch up with him in tech by generating lots of Great Spies and stealing technology from him. This was modestly successful. I think I picked up 2 or 3 techs in this manner. But I soon learned that you cant rely on Great Spy points alone to keep up with AI spy spending, and abandoned this plan somewhere in the Industrial age. Fortunately by that point I was able to keep up with my own research.
Of course it helped when Mansa essentially stopped researching. Apparently I was lucky in that I could see this (thanks to my spies) and realized that it probably meant he was going for a cultural win. He was still far from achieving it, so I decided I would keep teching for awhile, get ahead of him in military technology, then build a superior army and whomp him. But maybe 15 turns after I noticed his switch to culture production, I traded him a tech (Steam Power I think, around 1655 AD) and he stopped pushing culture and went back to researching. Fine by me! I settled back in to pure research mode.
In 1765 AD I established Mining, Inc. in Memphis, which also had the Jewish Shrine and would soon have Wall Street. I had a huge surplus of the resources Mining, Inc. wanted and thus could get boosts of something like 8 hammers in every city I spread it to. Later I had a quest to expand it even further, which was a bit difficult since Id spread it to almost all of my cities and everyone else was running State Property, but eventually Hammurabi switched to Environmentalism and I completed the quest, getting +10 gpt in Memphis. Which was nice, although not *that* great considering the cost of spreading the Corp. Ah well.
I kept an eye on Mansas research rate, and wouldnt you know it, in the mid 1800s he went back to emphasizing Culture. I decided to try distracting him by bribing him into a war with Darius. That worked for a little while, as he restarted his research during the fighting. But Darius was weak and it was no surprise that he quickly vassalized, at which point Mansa went right back to pushing Culture. Which despite my best efforts was overwhelming my own borders and robbing me of valuable resources and Towns. To top things off he now he had a very large and powerful military, and an ally. Ugh.
While still concentrating on the Space Race, I built up my military as best I could in the hopes of bum-rushing one of Mansas culture centers. I built my first World Wonder of the game in Cahokia in 1884 AD: The Internet. That brought me 5 techs immediately, including Rocketry, and a few more over the course of the game. Shortly thereafter, in another attempt to slow Mansas cultural progress, I gave him a huge bribe to declare war on Pacal, which also brought Charlemagne in as Pacals ally. This time, however, Mansa did not noticeably shift away from culture output during the war.
Cahokia built the Apollo Program in 1898 AD (it was a production monster by this point, at least 150 hpt before resource bonuses) and most of my empire was devoted to parts building for the next 20 turns. One exception: Memphis built the Manhattan Project in 1919 AD. Whats that, Mansa? Youd like me to trade you some Uranium? Mmm, sorry, not today I also built the Space Elevator in 1913 AD, thanks to a couple of Great Engineers (one from Fusion). As my space ship neared completion, I built some Modern Armor and other nifty units plus a handful of ICBMs and Tactical Nukes.
I launched my ship in 1931, with all possible parts, meaning I needed the game to last another 10 turns to score a victory. Most likely I was safe, as Mansa had one city well past Legendary but two in the low 40 thousands. But why let some perfectly good Nukes go to waste, eh? I moved all the troops I thought I could spare into Babylonian territory--putting them as close to one of his culture centers as possible--and declared war. ICBMs hit Timbuktu and Kumbai Saleh with gratifying results. Tactical Nukes devastated his troops closest to my own borders. But my strike force headed for Kumbai Saleh was ravaged by air strikes and killed off before it reached that city. So I nuked it a couple more times for good measure. Mansa and Dariuss counterattacks on my own territory were repulsed without much difficulty. And a few turns later, my space ship arrived, giving me a victory in 1942.
A far from spectacular effort on my part. My early wars dragged on for too long and brought too little in return. I did end up with a lot of territory, but only about half of my cities had terrain that supported a lot of cottages and two of them were swamped by Mansas culture, including my Academy/Oxford city. So research was slow. On the bright side, Mansa didnt defeat me with a Culture victory!
My first spoiler here. Synopsis: Settled on the typical wooded plains hill, immediate war declaration on Hatty, then build dog soldiers & nothing but dog soldiers for OVER TWO FRiGGIN' THOUSAND YEARS until I felt I had enough to risk attacking Thebes, which I finally did in 1320 BC. Then finally start expansion & building phase begining witha second city in 760 BC ...
Strategy Course Correction ~500 AD
As first spoiler states, war with Hatty took longer than planned, at end I took stock of the situation: 1) most territory, with plenty more left to settle, 2) a tailor made WS city with two founded religions, and the capitol a tailor made Oxford/HE. This meant to me I was best served by a long period of peace for expansion/infrastructure build, which when done I would then leverage into a position of tech superiority to either go for space, or exploit that for a domination win. And that is exactly what I did, in the end choosing to go for domination. Even though Hatty nicely founded both Hinduism & Judaism in Thebes, because I hemmed her in, neither religion ever spread anywhere else & the entire world went Buddhist. Since I was behind in power due to expansion stall, & needed everyone to leave me alone to focus on it for awhile, I also converted to Buddhism as soon as my first city got it; later, when defensive pacts became available I signed ones with Mansa, Charlemagne, and Hammurabi, primarily to protect me from attack by Darius (who was never better than cautious with me).
Additional Strategy Consideration: Avoiding losing to a Mansa AP diplomatic victory
As I also wrote in first spoiler, because the whole world was Buddhist I was conscious that an early AP diplo victory was possible. Furthermore I was keenly aware that if it did come up for a vote, Mansa (founder of Buddhism) would win it. In first spoiler I couldn't reload to show relations in my game, but I can now, here they are 960ad, a few turns after AP was built -- focus on Mansa's relations with everyone relative to each other:
Spoiler:
Note: Sometime much later I started to wonder ... since Hatty was not completely eliminated (she had one wandering archer) was an AP victory possible? I'm not sure now ... but during my game I assumed (and feared) it was. My strategy for preventing this: build AP myself & keep it from being buddhist. So as soon as I saw the message Christianity was founded, I traded for it at first opportunity & immediately started AP. Built it in Thebes, as it was the perfect place: 1) I wanted to get GP there to build shrines for eventual WS; +2GP from AP helped, 2) the forests around Thebes were plentiful & still completely unchopped (intentionally, for just this purposes), plus there was plenty of resources (iron, plains horse, gold, lots of hills) so I could rush it very quickly. Looking back at the log now, I see I completed it in exactly ten turns, in other words averaging 40/turn, completing it 840AD. There are no resource bonuses for AP, so you can tell I'm not joking about how hard I pushed! It was just edged out by GL (780ad, in Cahokia) for the distinction the first wonder I built. The turn before I completed it I switched to Judaism, stayed with it just a few turns before switching back to Buddhism.
Millenium of focusing inward
After the Jewish AP was built I continued with my peaceful infrastructure strategy -- as a practicing Buddhist -- til early 1800s. This was probably too long, but for most of it it made sense to keep expanding into new city sites while still available, IMO. By this time I'd decided not to pursue space race victory, because I find domination a more fulfilling way to win; I was only considering space victory as a fallback if domination looked too difficult. After my expansion/infrastructure build was well established, for the last many turns I was flumoxed by a diplomatic problem that prevented me from going on the offensive earlier, as detailed below. It probably was not helpful that I was playing late into the night in a long session; after I got away & rested a bit & looked back at the game freshly, the solution hit me almost right away ...
The Final Century: 1804-1900
In my game, I was the only one who ever declared wars. In the first 5800 years of my game there was exactly one war: my rush on Hatty, which ultimately came down to only ~10 battles. The last hundred years of my game were almost non-stop warfare, with massive war weariness issues (-15 or worse in some cities at times despite with Rushmore and Jail). But I expected & prepared for it, besides a military buildup I also delayed onset of war slightly longer so I could build/get underway Broadway, Rock 'N Roll, and Eiffel Tower to offset a lot of the unhappiness, as well as completing Rushmore in 1775ad.
The first challenge for military conquest that I faced was this: the obvious target of my aggression was Darius, as will be obvious from this map showing that he is the only civ I directly border:
Spoiler:
However, by this time he had a defensive pact with Mansa; if I declared on him, I'd declare on them both (and then god knows who else would dogpile ... see my note about vassalization below, I knew if I was successful there would be others joining the war unless I accepted capitulation, which I prefer to avoid). By 1700s I'd pulled into the lead score-wise, but not by much (maybe 5-10% higher), and my military forces were meager. So I went into a long period of buildup, delaying the offensive because I thought I'd be taking on at least 2 civs at once. But then I belatedly realized ... I had the AP palace, and to that point Judaism has spread to every civ but Mansa's!!! Wish I'd realized significance of that earlier What this let me do was: 1) switch to Judaism in 1804, then wait a few turns until 2) the next AP resolution choice came up, when I picked "stop trading with the infidel Mansa Musa." My votes alone were enough to carry it, and ... poof! ... I got Darius himself to break his defensive pact with Mansa!
Once I figured out clearing that hurdle, the rest was just closing the deal militarily. I never made a peace treaty; I wiped each civ out in one go, no cease fires (hence the war weariness issues ... made a real PITA by complete kills, when Mansa had a ship left over & wandering god knows where (and I couldn't get peace like I did with Hatty because he'd vassalized. I'm not a fan of complete kills option, I'm not sure what point of it was in an AI game?)
Others in the thread expressed surprise that civs they're at war with would vassalize to someone else, & the player would be immediately at war with the 3rd civ. Hmm, not only am I unsurprised by this, but I counted on it as the way to take out the AIs one-by-one without having to worry about defensive pacts. True to form, just as brought Darius to the brink of extinction, in 1824 Mansa took him as a vassal & went to war with me. Then, after Darius was gone & just as I had Mansa on the ropes, ini 1840 he vassalized to Charlemagne & I was at war with him. However before I completely eliminated Charlemagne in 1894 he did not vassalize to anyone, so I was suddenly unexpected at peace again, in a world that now was only me, Hammurabi, Pacal, and ... one elderly Egyptian archer
(A note to those who say they never got a chance to accept capitulation before a civ vassalized to someone else: I don't believe it. The opportunity was there in every case for me (I just intentional chose not to accept it); not just in BOTM2, but in previous games, and consistently. Remember two things: 1) You have to check with them to see if they will capitulate, they won't come to you for some reason, and 2) don't forget that a civ that starts your turn unwilling to capitulate/vassalize, may end the turn willing to, for example if you've taken cities from it. You have to check at the end of your turn.)
Blitzkrieg! 1901 AD
Once enough of Charlemagne's cities came out of revolt I was going to hit the territory domination limit even if I went on autopilot, but I decided to take the last few turns prepping to go out in style, a blitzkrieg war on Hammurabi. In 1901 I declared on him; relying on a combination of spy-incited revolts, guided missiles, gunships, jet fighters, commando units, and paratroopers, I captured 7 of his 10 cities in one turn of furious warfare. Here's the log of that turn if anyone cares to look (probably not, but if you do, make sure to read the very last line )
Spoiler:
Turn 321/500 (1901 AD) [10-Feb-2008 14:46:31] Judaism has spread: Dur-Kurigalzu (Babylonian Empire) Sitting Bull(Native America) declares war on Hammurabi(Babylon) While attacking in Babylonian territory at Tarsus, Cannon loses to: Babylonian Artillery (15.48/18) (Prob Victory: 4.6%) While attacking in Babylonian territory at Sardis, Modern Armor defeats (28.80/40): Babylonian Tank (Prob Victory: 99.3%) While attacking in Babylonian territory at Sardis, Modern Armor defeats (28.80/40): Babylonian SAM Infantry (Prob Victory: 99.5%) While attacking in Native American territory at Tarsus, Tank defeats (28.00/28): Babylonian SAM Infantry (Prob Victory: 100.0%) While attacking in Native American territory at Tarsus, Tank defeats (28.00/28): Babylonian Infantry (Prob Victory: 100.0%) While attacking in Babylonian territory at Sardis, Modern Armor defeats (6.40/40): Babylonian Infantry (Prob Victory: 99.5%) While attacking in Babylonian territory at Sardis, Gunship defeats (20.64/24): Babylonian Artillery (Prob Victory: 99.4%) While attacking in Babylonian territory at Sardis, Mechanized Infantry defeats (32.00/32): Babylonian Artillery (Prob Victory: 99.8%) Sardis's borders expand Judaism has spread: Sardis Christianity has spread: Sardis Buddhism has spread: Sardis Captured Sardis (Hammurabi) While attacking in Native American territory at Tarsus, Modern Armor defeats (40.00/40): Babylonian Infantry (Prob Victory: 100.0%) While attacking in Native American territory at Tarsus, Modern Armor defeats (40.00/40): Babylonian SAM Infantry (Prob Victory: 100.0%) While attacking in Native American territory at Tarsus, Longbowman defeats (6.00/6): Babylonian Artillery (Prob Victory: 100.0%) While attacking in Native American territory at Tarsus, Gunship defeats (24.00/24): Babylonian Cavalry (Prob Victory: 100.0%) While attacking in Native American territory at Tarsus, SAM Infantry defeats (18.00/18): Babylonian Bomber (Prob Victory: 100.0%) Tarsus's borders expand Judaism has spread: Tarsus Christianity has spread: Tarsus Buddhism has spread: Tarsus Captured Tarsus (Hammurabi) While attacking in Babylonian territory at Mari, Gunship defeats (19.20/24): Babylonian Infantry (Prob Victory: 32.2%) While attacking in Maya territory near Chichen Itza, Modern Armor defeats (40.00/40): Babylonian Worker (Prob Victory: 32.2%) While attacking in Babylonian territory at Borsippa, Modern Armor defeats (24.40/40): Babylonian Machine Gun (Prob Victory: 99.6%) While attacking in Babylonian territory at Borsippa, Modern Armor defeats (24.40/40): Babylonian Infantry (Prob Victory: 99.8%) While attacking in Babylonian territory at Borsippa, Modern Armor defeats (40.00/40): Babylonian Infantry (Prob Victory: 100.0%) Christianity has spread: Borsippa Buddhism has spread: Borsippa Captured Borsippa (Hammurabi) While attacking in Babylonian territory at Mari, Gunship defeats (14.40/24): Babylonian Infantry (Prob Victory: 55.2%) While attacking in Babylonian territory at Mari, Hernan Cortes (Mechanized Infantry) defeats (32.00/32): Babylonian Machine Gun (Prob Victory: 95.8%) Judaism has spread: Mari Christianity has spread: Mari Captured Mari (Hammurabi) While attacking in Babylonian territory at Dur-Kurigalzu, Tank defeats (6.72/28): Babylonian Infantry (Prob Victory: 64.0%) While attacking in Babylonian territory at Dur-Kurigalzu, Tank loses to: Babylonian Infantry (16.20/20) (Prob Victory: 36.0%) While attacking in Babylonian territory at Dur-Kurigalzu, Subutai (Modern Armor) defeats (0.80/40): Babylonian Infantry (Prob Victory: 99.7%) While attacking in Babylonian territory at Dur-Kurigalzu, Timur (Modern Armor) defeats (34.80/40): Babylonian SAM Infantry (Prob Victory: 99.7%) While attacking in Babylonian territory at Dur-Kurigalzu, Timur (Modern Armor) defeats (24.40/40): Babylonian Infantry (Prob Victory: 99.7%) Judaism has spread: Dur-Kurigalzu Christianity has spread: Dur-Kurigalzu Buddhism has spread: Dur-Kurigalzu Captured Dur-Kurigalzu (Hammurabi) While attacking in Babylonian territory at Sippar, Gunship defeats (8.88/24): Babylonian SAM Infantry (Prob Victory: 69.2%) While attacking in Babylonian territory at Sippar, Gunship defeats (16.80/24): Babylonian Infantry (Prob Victory: 97.3%) While attacking in Babylonian territory at Sippar, Gunship defeats (16.32/24): Babylonian Infantry (Prob Victory: 98.9%) Judaism has spread: Sippar Christianity has spread: Sippar Confucianism has spread: Sippar Captured Sippar (Hammurabi) While attacking in Babylonian territory at Tarsus, Gunship defeats (24.00/24): Babylonian Worker (Prob Victory: 98.9%) While attacking in Babylonian territory at Opis, Gunship defeats (2.88/24): Babylonian Machine Gun (Prob Victory: 20.3%) While attacking in Babylonian territory near Persepolis, Gunship defeats (24.00/24): Babylonian Worker (Prob Victory: 20.3%) While attacking in Babylonian territory at Opis, Gunship loses to: Babylonian Infantry (9.20/20) (Prob Victory: 29.2%) While attacking in Babylonian territory at Opis, Gunship defeats (16.32/24): Babylonian Artillery (Prob Victory: 89.4%) While attacking in Babylonian territory at Opis, Gunship defeats (19.44/24): Babylonian Infantry (Prob Victory: 95.6%) While attacking in Babylonian territory at Opis, Bernard Montgomery (Modern Armor) defeats (34.80/40): Babylonian Infantry (Prob Victory: 100.0%) Judaism has spread: Opis Christianity has spread: Opis Confucianism has spread: Opis Captured Opis (Hammurabi) While attacking in Native American territory at Opis, Bernard Montgomery (Modern Armor) defeats (29.60/40): Babylonian Infantry (Prob Victory: 98.7%) Isoroku Yamamoto (Great General) born in Snaketown While attacking in Native American territory near Persepolis, Modern Armor defeats (35.20/40): Babylonian Cavalry (Prob Victory: 100.0%) While attacking in Native American territory at Opis, Modern Armor defeats (28.80/40): Babylonian SAM Infantry (Prob Victory: 84.3%) While attacking in Native American territory at Tarsus, Tank defeats (6.72/28): Babylonian SAM Infantry (Prob Victory: 73.5%) Tech learned: Laser Poverty Point finishes: The Space Elevator Attitude Change: Hammurabi(Babylon) towards Sitting Bull(Native America), from 'Pleased' to 'Furious'
Unfortunately the HOF log, besides plane and missile attacks, also does not record espionage actions (if any HOF guys are reading, you may want to add that ... also AP votes & elections), so you can't see what I did at the start of the turn just before declaring war: after finished spreading Judaism to all his cities in order to get espionage bonus, using that bonus along with stationary spy & open border bonus, by having a couple spies in place in each city I managed to put 5 of his cities into one turn revolt so they would not have any cultural defense to knock -- great use of those espionage points I'd been piling up! Especially critical for cities that were more than two tiles inside his borders, these I was primarily restricted to hitting with cruise missiles, gunships, a handful of precious commando-promoted units, & then finally paratroopers to physically take the cities once the gunships had done their thing. The log also didn't record the rain of cruise missiles that took down the defenses of the cities that the spies didn't, and then softened up infantry for the gunship attacks. This was the first game I'd ever bothered with cruise missiles; though some complain in the forums that they are pretty useless, I found them indispensable for blitzkrieg warfare, when based in border cities and/or fired from Missile Cruisers just offshore (Stealth bombers would have been even better but I'd just got the tech the turn before and all I had was a couple regular bombers I'd upgraded). If I had a few more turns to crank out & stage more gunships, guided missiles/missile cruisers, and stealth bombers, I think I could have take out Hammurabi entirely in one turn.
In consequence of taking out all Hammurabi's cities on my borders in particular, my territory shot well over 64% during the 1901 blitzkrieg & I was declared domination winner at the end of the turn.
Of course it helped when Mansa essentially stopped researching. Apparently I was lucky in that I could see this (thanks to my spies) and realized that it probably meant he was going for a cultural win.
If I recall correctly, Mansa shifted to heavy cultural production for the first time (that I noticed) when his most advanced techs were something like this:
Democracy, Liberalism, Rifling, Military Science, Steel
I can't remember which was the last tech he researched before switching over. It might have been Liberalism (he wasn't the first civ to get that, Hammurabi was). But I kind of think it was Steel, which is not a particularly useful tech for a culture win. In any case, he certainly researched more of the Industrial Age technologies than most human players would if they were trying for a Cultural victory.
I am pretty sure that Mansa went culture-heavy for the second and last time immediately after he developed Mass Media.
(From the first spoiler, I thought replying here would be safer)
Originally Posted by Harok
Looking at the map closer I notice it hasn't taken long for the evilness of being an admin to catch on to DS.
He set up a trap to get people to go SW with 2 impossibly close civs ready to take all the good land if you go that way. And even if you head to the good land first, those close civs both have far superior early UUs to ours with access to their horses, and some of their best tiles which they would improve first are farther away from us.
Although calling the starting location a "trap" is technically correct, it was easy to see and avoid. In my first post to the pre-game discussion (one of the first posts to that thread) I immediately recognized that settling on that coast on a pangea map might create exactly those problems (post link) :
... given the pangea map, going 2NE seems more likely to let you "stake out" more territory for later settlement (or a shorter distance to travel for an early rush, if that's in the cards -- I'm presuming we're in the SW corner of Pangea here, I think a safe assumption)
I was wrong on SW placement, but the general read was, and the confluence of pangea + coast + tundra should have (and pretty much did, for most) set off alarm bells.
As far as UUs of neighbors, it sounds like many managed to handle that too.
All in all I thought the scenario setup was fine, it actually rewarded players who analyzed the starting situation and reacted rationally to it (that is not always the case)
After eliminating Darius and Hashy around 500 AD, I aimed for rifling. I miss liberalism to Pacal by 1 turn.
I was really lazy and traded paper to him without considering him as a threat (Mansa was my target) and had to research rifling by myself. I poped a GM to upgrade Drill IV crossbow and got a quite nice army running very fast. I quickly followed with steam power for levees which boost my production on this map
I then went for a long war with Mansa who got at that time the biggest territory. WW killed my economy but I manage to razed or kept all of his cities thinking conquest at that time. I realized that with his spies and caravel, I could not kill all his units and regret after that not to have kept his cities for a fast domination. So I made peace for him for lots of tech (democracy, astronomy, corporation and maybe a nother one)
I then just went for Hammurabi who was weak and after taking half of his territory I DoW on Pacal who was leading in tech by far (3 turns before he got railroad and...machine gun )
I quickly wiped him while upgrading my army to infantry and reach the domination cap without really going for that (I did not even settle back Mansa razed cities). It was my second domination victory ever as usually I never finish my games ^^, the first time I saw and used aircraft (Pacal demonstrate the usefulness of it against my armies!).
I've run out of time on this one. I would have got a domination win, but not a great one. I made a real mess of the middle game, and then got shafted by not being able to get a UN victory vote because there was a non-member in the game (a civ with no cities).
Moved NNE, then moved a bit further north, settling on a flood plain on turn 3 after a little map-revealing. I felt happy to have gone that far north with the proximity issues.
Took out Persia's main cities early, and then made a stupid mistake. I thought that rather than declare peace, since war-weariness wasn't a problem, I'd just stay technically at war until I felt like finishing Persia off. Of course, eventually Persia vassaled to the HRE making an irritating relation-ruining war with a distant country I didn't want to invade.
Time passed as I extracated myself from that mess. I took out most of the Khmer, who had been heading for cultural, and then vassalised them. Shortly before the Khmer surrendered, Mali tried to invade from the north, and Persia and the HRE got involved again (taking a city I captured from the Khmer briefly). My good pal Hattie and I went to work. I took all the plum Malinese cities, she took the last few not-so-good Persian ones. I then only needed to take a couple of HRE cities and they submitted too (they'd lost a lot of troops already -- cuirassiers and a heap of older troops killing themselves against drill 4 rifles and then infantry).
But only one of Mali and Persia actually died -- the other limped on somewhere in the world preventing UN elections from taking place.
And sadly I don't have time to finally take out the last 2 remaining opponents, although it'd be a walkover (I have flight and radio, they've recently upgraded to riflemen).
Probably would have been a 1920-ish domination by the time I did all the piece shuffling.
Another mediocre attempt from me to compete in the Gauntlet (challenger save, space race).
I settled on the coast, and the plan was to get lots of food to enable me to spam settlers/workers. The plan failed miserably when Darius decided to settle towards me Then he settled on the iron to the west and I had to rush him. With archers! Throw in spears, dogs and swords, together with 700 years, and Darius was left with a wandering unit somewhere.
As of 500 AD I had 9 cities, building libraries and monasteries. And running 0% research
Let's see if I can climb out of this pit I've dug for myself. I'm land and pop leader, close to score, mfg and yield leader.
Compared to my pre-game-plan, it all went pear-shaped.
Which means that I am one of the stupid ones who settled at the coast AND missed the iron
It's actually the first time I run out of settlement space after three cities on Monarch. Kudos to map designer
It took me until 1100 AD until I could increase research to 10% I was relying on specialists, lightbulbing and tech trade, and I ended up as tech leader and kept that position for the rest of the game.
To make a long story short: I declared on Hammurabi, and the Pacal. Mansa backstabbed, so I wiped him almost from the map. Then I returned to Pacal and took his cities. Now, the beauty of the game: NUKES! With a bunch of Tactical Nukes and ICBMs together with marines from transporters, I took out seven of Charlemagne's nine cities on one turn
Shortly after, my space ship was completed. But I forgot to launch!!! Took me two turns before I remembered to do it manually...
Lessons learned: subs cannot carry nukes, paratroopers have one movement after deployment, nukes still targets 9 tiles, and two are normally enough to kill off all units. Production was skyrocketing at the end of the game, which means that all focus should go toward science most of the game. One more thing: Corporations are really, REALLY powerful. I got +19 production in the cities with Mining Inc, and +7 food with Cereal. The main advantage with these two corporations was that newly captured cities could be rebuilt in about 30 turns to fully functionally and contributing cities. And I got a random event late in the game that enabled me to increase research with 10%! In general, I like random events a lot, even the bad event. The random component of the events has lesser impact than most of the choice the human do. The random events forces players to have more margins in their play (always keep 100 gold in reserve for example).
A BIG thank you to the staff, wonderful map, much more fun than the average Monarch game.
Event log with my comments:
Spoiler:
3800 BC Tech learned: Fishing
3600 BC Hinduism founded in a distant land
3560 BC Tech learned: Hunting
3400 BC Buddhism founded in a distant land
3360 BC Erkon: Settle at coast, build warrior, then WB, then worker
3240 BC Tech learned: Agriculture
2920 BC Tech learned: The Wheel
2560 BC Tech learned: Animal Husbandry
2320 BC Tech learned: Mining
2000 BC Poverty Point founded
2000 BC Tech learned: Bronze Working
1800 BC Tech learned: Mysticism
1680 BC Judaism founded in a distant land
1640 BC Mound City founded
1600 BC Tech learned: Archery
1560 BC Erkon: There is no hurry with tech trade else the WFYWBTA will kick in too early
1040 BC Erkon: Doh! No nice site to settle. Time to war a bit...
1000 BC Tech learned: Iron Working
875 BC Tech learned: Pottery
850 BC Erkon: Ahhh, kill'em! Kill'em all!!!
750 BC Tech learned: Writing
600 BC Tech learned: Masonry
600 BC Tech learned: Sailing
600 BC Sitting Bull(Native America) declares war on Darius I(Persia)
450 BC Captured Ecbatana (Darius I)
450 BC Tech learned: Mathematics
400 BC Chaco Canyon founded
400 BC Sitting Bull(Native America) and Darius I(Persia) have signed a peace treaty
300 BC Sitting Bull(Native America) declares war on Darius I(Persia)
300 BC Captured Pasargadae (Darius I)
150 BC Christianity founded in a distant land
125 BC Captured Persepolis (Darius I)
100 BC Mesa Verde founded
50 BC Tech learned: Calendar
25 BC Tech learned: Alphabet
25 AD Captured Tarsus (Darius I)
25 AD Erkon: As soon as the war is over, it's time to switch to economy mode and put the pedal to the metal.
25 AD Confucianism founded in a distant land
100 AD Captured Susa (Darius I)
125 AD Sitting Bull(Native America) and Darius I(Persia) have signed a peace treaty
125 AD Erkon: I can't find all units so I make peace.
125 AD Erkon: Ahh, much better. 9 cities in 125 AD. Let's start the tech race (0% at the moment)
150 AD Tech learned: Meditation
175 AD Tech learned: Polytheism
175 AD Tech learned: Priesthood
200 AD Tech learned: Monarchy
425 AD Erkon: Ahh, I can now run a stunning 10% research rate *lol*
450 AD Erkon: I'm starting the pyramids. Even if I cant complete, I will get coins
475 AD Erkon: Hatshepsut demanded 130 gold from me. I agreed. The bonus in relations will be worth more than 130 gold in the future. And I got a spice trade
500 AD Erkon: Im far behind in the tech race but I'm not worried.
500 AD Erkon: The techs I would have traded for now will get me the WFYABTA later
500 AD Erkon: The techs I already have traded will hopefully be forgotten.
540 AD Erkon: I have most pop and most land. Good.
600 AD Erkon: Hmm, can I get the pyramids?
640 AD Tech learned: Compass
640 AD Tech learned: Aesthetics
660 AD Tech learned: Currency
660 AD Tech learned: Monotheism
660 AD Tech learned: Metal Casting
660 AD Tech learned: Construction
660 AD Tech learned: Code of Laws
680 AD Tech learned: Literature
800 AD Tech learned: Music
820 AD Erkon: I will use the artist for a golden age, but I want to grow a bit first and improve all the tiles.
860 AD Tech learned: Machinery
880 AD Tech learned: Feudalism
900 AD Tech learned: Civil Service
920 AD Tech learned: Philosophy
920 AD Taoism founded in Mesa Verde
920 AD Erkon: Race for Liberalism is on. Not much of a race though...
920 AD Erkon: I will start the golden age in two turns
960 AD Tech learned: Paper
980 AD Erkon: Doh! I forgot to switch civics and religion...
1000 AD Tech learned: Guilds
1030 AD Islam founded in a distant land
1050 AD Tech learned: Education
1090 AD Tech learned: Banking
1090 AD Tech learned: Theology
1090 AD Tech learned: Horseback Riding
1090 AD Tech learned: Liberalism
1100 AD Tech learned: Economics
1100 AD Erkon: Ahhh, beautiful
1100 AD Erkon: Soon time to switch from specialists to production.
1100 AD Erkon: I'll switch off research now to focus on buildings that in the long term will pay back.
1100 AD Tech learned: Engineering
1120 AD Erkon: Nice - silver! *lol*
1160 AD Erkon: I don't want to start the war just yet. I will be ready in 100 years to defend myself, and attack in 200 years.
1180 AD Erkon: I want to change to Free Market, but I will wait for Taj Mahal
1190 AD Tech learned: Printing Press
1250 AD Tech learned: Nationalism
1270 AD Tech learned: Gunpowder
1280 AD Sitting Bull(Native America) declares war on Hammurabi(Babylon)
1280 AD Erkon: Oops... Now you must die, swine!
1290 AD Captured Sippar (Hammurabi)
1310 AD Captured Dur-Kurigalzu (Hammurabi)
1310 AD Tech learned: Chemistry
1320 AD Tech learned: Optics
1320 AD Tech learned: Constitution
1390 AD Captured Babylon (Hammurabi)
1390 AD Erkon: Ohh, I almost forgot to revolt! *lol*
1390 AD Tech learned: Steel
1410 AD Tech learned: Corporation
1410 AD Mansa Musa(Mali) declares war on Darius I(Persia)
1410 AD Charlemagne(Holy Rome) declares war on Darius I(Persia)
1410 AD Pacal II(Maya) declares war on Darius I(Persia)
1430 AD Tech learned: Replaceable Parts
1440 AD Erkon: It is strange that the enemy mace does not pillage
1440 AD Erkon: And it is annoying that my spy in enemy city blocks the visual defending unit
1440 AD Erkon: Not very succesful, but I reduced his stack a bit, and I lost obsolete trebs
1460 AD Captured Akkad (Hammurabi)
1460 AD Erkon: The turn counter for building Lumbermills seams off...
1470 AD Erkon: Finally, the AI shows weakness in combat. I used a knight to lure out loose units. Now I can kill them in the open...
1490 AD Erkon: Finally, Darius gone...
1490 AD Captured Borsippa (Hammurabi)
1505 AD Tech learned: Steam Power
1510 AD Captured Nippur (Hammurabi)
1510 AD Mansa Musa(Mali) declares war on Hammurabi(Babylon)
1510 AD Sitting Bull(Native America) and Hammurabi(Babylon) have signed a peace treaty
1515 AD Tech learned: Scientific Method
1515 AD Erkon: I've noticed that the Christian Monastaries produce 2 hammers. Why? AP?
1540 AD Erkon: Mansa appears to have shut down his research and is building 100% culture. Evil!
1545 AD Erkon: Perhaps the +2 hammers from christian buildings comes from a random event?
1545 AD Tech learned: Railroad
1550 AD Tech learned: Drama
1590 AD Tech learned: Assembly Line
1605 AD Tech learned: Democracy
1605 AD Tech learned: Military Tradition
1605 AD Erkon: Hmm, MM seams to be stuck in his war against the city-less Hammurabi...
1605 AD Tech learned: Rifling
1610 AD Erkon: Time for another GA...
1610 AD Mansa Musa(Mali) and Hammurabi(Babylon) have signed a peace treaty
1610 AD Erkon: Let's see if that get MM out of his stasis...
1630 AD Tech learned: Combustion
1665 AD Tech learned: Biology
1680 AD Tech learned: Fascism
1685 AD Tech learned: Astronomy
1685 AD Erkon: Time to kill
1685 AD Sitting Bull(Native America) declares war on Charlemagne(Holy Rome)
1685 AD Sitting Bull(Native America) declares war on Pacal II(Maya)
1685 AD Erkon: Ooops...
1700 AD Mansa Musa(Mali) declares war on Sitting Bull(Native America)
1705 AD Erkon: Curse you Mansa! I gifted you tech, and now you backstab me! God show mercy on you if you can't chew the bite you took, since I'm not showing mercy....
1705 AD Sitting Bull(Native America) and Charlemagne(Holy Rome) have signed a peace treaty
1705 AD Pacal II(Maya) and Sitting Bull(Native America) have signed a peace treaty
1705 AD Erkon: I will let Charly off the hook, and punish Mansa!
1710 AD Tech learned: Physics
1715 AD Captured Susa (Mansa Musa)
1720 AD Captured Wadan (Mansa Musa)
1725 AD Captured Tekedda (Mansa Musa)
1725 AD Tech learned: Medicine
1740 AD Captured Kumbi Saleh (Mansa Musa)
1740 AD Captured Timbuktu (Mansa Musa)
1750 AD Captured Tadmekka (Mansa Musa)
1750 AD Captured Walata (Mansa Musa)
1750 AD Tech learned: Artillery
1755 AD Captured Djenne (Mansa Musa)
1755 AD Charlemagne(Holy Rome) declares war on Sitting Bull(Native America)
1755 AD Pacal II(Maya) declares war on Sitting Bull(Native America)
1765 AD Captured Niani (Mansa Musa)
1770 AD Captured Gao (Mansa Musa)
1770 AD Captured Awdaghost (Mansa Musa)
1780 AD Sitting Bull(Native America) and Charlemagne(Holy Rome) have signed a peace treaty
1780 AD Mansa Musa(Mali) and Sitting Bull(Native America) have signed a peace treaty
1780 AD Tech learned: Divine Right
1790 AD Captured Uxmal (Pacal II)
1795 AD Captured Calakmul (Pacal II)
1800 AD Tech learned: Electricity
1802 AD Captured Chichen Itza (Pacal II)
1804 AD Captured Mayapan (Pacal II)
1804 AD Captured Lakamha (Pacal II)
1804 AD Captured Mutal (Pacal II)
1808 AD Tech learned: Rocketry
1808 AD Tech learned: Communism
1808 AD Captured Oxhuitza (Pacal II)
1808 AD Tech learned: Industrialism
1812 AD Sitting Bull(Native America) and Pacal II(Maya) have signed a peace treaty
1812 AD Tech learned: Refrigeration
1814 AD Sitting Bull(Native America) declares war on Hammurabi(Babylon)
1818 AD Sitting Bull(Native America) declares war on Pacal II(Maya)
1820 AD Tech learned: Fission
1824 AD Tech learned: Flight
1824 AD Hatshepsut(Egypt) declares war on Charlemagne(Holy Rome)
1824 AD Hatshepsut(Egypt) declares war on Mansa Musa(Mali)
1824 AD Tech learned: Military Science
1834 AD Erkon: He he, nuke *grin*
1836 AD Tech learned: Radio
1840 AD Erkon: Doh! Subs can't carry Tactical Nukes *cry*
1840 AD Hatshepsut(Egypt) and Charlemagne(Holy Rome) have signed a peace treaty
1844 AD Erkon: War in three turns
1844 AD Tech learned: Ecology
1850 AD Erkon: Let the war begin! Let the anger of god rain upon the unfaithful!! Let the stars bring forth their glory!!! Die, swine, die!!!!
1850 AD Sitting Bull(Native America) declares war on Charlemagne(Holy Rome)
1850 AD Captured Augsburg (Charlemagne)
1850 AD Captured Vienna (Charlemagne)
1850 AD Captured Mainz (Charlemagne)
1850 AD Captured Luxemburg (Charlemagne)
1850 AD Captured Aachen (Charlemagne)
1850 AD Captured Florence (Charlemagne)
1850 AD Captured Nuremberg (Charlemagne)
1850 AD Captured Ulm (Charlemagne)
1850 AD Tech learned: Superconductors
1852 AD Captured Pisa (Charlemagne)
1854 AD Captured Prague (Charlemagne)
1854 AD Sitting Bull(Native America) and Charlemagne(Holy Rome) have signed a peace treaty
1858 AD Tech learned: Genetics
1864 AD Erkon: Now, that was a random event worthy of the name! 270 gpt!! Thank you Sid *lol*
1864 AD Erkon: Which enabled me to increase research with almost 10% *lol*
1864 AD Tech learned: Plastics
1868 AD Tech learned: Computers
1872 AD Tech learned: Fiber Optics
1876 AD Tech learned: Fusion
1880 AD Tech learned: Satellites
1884 AD Tech learned: Composites
1888 AD Tech learned: Robotics
1890 AD Tech learned: Advanced Flight
1894 AD Tech learned: Stealth
1898 AD Tech learned: Future Tech
1901 AD Tech learned: Future Tech
1902 AD Erkon: *lol* - I forgot to launch!!!
1904 AD Tech learned: Future Tech
1906 AD Tech learned: Future Tech
1907 AD Tech learned: Future Tech
1909 AD Tech learned: Future Tech
1911 AD Tech learned: Mass Media
1911 AD Tech learned: Future Tech
PS: Since it was apparent that I would not submit a competitive finish date for the Gauntlet, so I decided to take this opportunity to learn a bit more about the game mechanics.
Sounds like you did not too shabby Erkon despite things (no surprise to me there!)
Hey just wondering if anyone has an answer to the question I have buried in my spoiler: is an AP diplomatic victory impossible if a civ has lost all cities but still has units? I believe that the rule is that every civ must have at least one city with the AP religion, right? That means in a complete kill game like this an AP victory is impossible if a civ is left "incompletely killed" ???
Note: Sometime much later I started to wonder ... since Hatty was not completely eliminated (she had one wandering archer) was an AP victory possible? I'm not sure now ... but during my game I assumed (and feared) it was.
Sounds like you did not too shabby Erkon despite things (no surprise to me there!)
Hey just wondering if anyone has an answer to the question I have buried in my spoiler: is an AP diplomatic victory impossible if a civ has lost all cities but still has units? I believe that the rule is that every civ must have at least one city with the AP religion, right? That means in a complete kill game like this an AP victory is impossible if a civ is left "incompletely killed" ???
Choose the answer you prefer, I think both are true
- Yes, impossible, without a city they are not members.
- No, they are a bit thin on cities so they will take any city you want to gift them... even if it already has THAT religion.
To make a long story short: I declared on Hammurabi, and the Pacal. Mansa backstabbed, so I wiped him almost from the map. Then I returned to Pacal and took his cities. Now, the beauty of the game: NUKES! With a bunch of Tactical Nukes and ICBMs together with marines from transporters, I took out seven of Charlemagne's nine cities on one turn
...
Lessons learned: subs cannot carry nukes, paratroopers have one movement after deployment, nukes still targets 9 tiles, and two are normally enough to kill off all units. Production was skyrocketing at the end of the game, which means that all focus should go toward science most of the game. One more thing: Corporations are really, REALLY powerful. I got +19 production in the cities with Mining Inc, and +7 food with Cereal. The main advantage with these two corporations was that newly captured cities could be rebuilt in about 30 turns to fully functionally and contributing cities.
Hey, Erkon, didn't you know that space is supposed to be a builder's VC???
Congratulations. The games of Civ I have enjoyed the most in my live are the ones that went very wrong at some point. I know a lot of people just surrenders and starts a new one. But when you win them, or even if you lose them by a smal margin, you feel so good. And, in addition to that, those are the games you learn the most from, as you list exemplifies.
Hey, Erkon, didn't you know that space is supposed to be a builder's VC???
Congratulations. The games of Civ I have enjoyed the most in my live are the ones that went very wrong at some point. I know a lot of people just surrenders and starts a new one. But when you win them, or even if you lose them by a smal margin, you feel so good. And, in addition to that, those are the games you learn the most from, as you list exemplifies.
Builder's VC? Says who?? Imagine me building a spaceship with three cities!!! Actually, grabbing land is essential in space VC. This we illustrated in the Elizabeth GOTM when we had the Americans and Chinese neighbors and started on the arctics. But you are correct that I was a bit greedy
This game was fun since I had to climb out of the pit I dug for myself with my bad starting position. When threw all my plans in the bin at 1000 BC. Next fun episode was when Mansa back stabbed me. I was VERY thin on defenses at that time. Now, had the AI been clever, he would have blitzed me with his cavalry and stolen a bunch of cities.
This game was on too low difficulty to be really funny (apologies to those who lost the game). Games I loose marginally are much more fun than games I win with no opposition. Except the Always War game with Romans when England captured my city on ~T15
Choose the answer you prefer, I think both are true
- Yes, impossible, without a city they are not members.
- No, they are a bit thin on cities so they will take any city you want to gift them... even if it already has THAT religion.
Thanks for the reply. In my case I was a bit more worried about someone else winning not me, though. I wonder if the computer AI would be programmed to do #2? I'm guessing not. But I decided not to take the chance of letting it happen, so I may never know.
This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.