Bout to thrown in the towel

Sagboy

Chieftain
Joined
Oct 24, 2005
Messages
30
I know a bunch of you have been helping me over the past few days, and I really appreciate it. I tried taking what you guys had said and incorporating it into my game. Unfortunatly where I pick up in some areas, I lose in others. Seems no matter what I do i start to lose it 1/2 to 2/3 into the game. The last game I played I was kicking serious ass, had a nice lead, had huge cities going up, capital was pumping out GP guys like no other. I tried not so much as specializing cities as just building lots of farms and mines then using certian cities to only build certian things. THat only lasted till I ran out of stuff to build. I even had 3 civs friendly with me sharing my same religion, and actually came within like 13 votes for diplomatic win, but unfortunatly I lost it from there and now there is no way Im going to win after playing it out for awhile.

Included is the save, at the point where i start to lose it. Last one I promise, I just dont understand this game I guess, no matter what I do.

Thanks agian guys, maybe im just a loss cause =)
 
Sagboy said:
I know a bunch of you have been helping me over the past few days, and I really appreciate it. I tried taking what you guys had said and incorporating it into my game. Unfortunatly where I pick up in some areas, I lose in others. Seems no matter what I do i start to lose it 1/2 to 2/3 into the game.

It looks to me as though you are still trying to collect prizes, rather than trying to build a civilization which can win the game.

I don't want to be discouraging (in part because I was in exactly the same boat you were, not all that long ago). This position looks to me a lot better than your earlier ones. There's obvious progress.

But your moves change direction so frequently that you aren't getting closer to winning, even though you've gotten faster.

We can make you faster, we have the technology. But maybe it would be more useful to show you how to get to the finish line?

My suggestion would be to play a game under the following constraints.

  • No world wonders. Not even the Shrines. If you happen to capture one, fine, but you aren't allowed to build any of them.
  • You have to develop two cities (not your capital, and not your original city) so that they have more than 100 commerce per turn.
  • You have to develop at least one city (not your capital, and not your original city) that, if set to build Research, generates 45 hammers per turn.

I'd also suggest sticking to one leader/type of map for a bit, so that when you ask people for comments the comments will change based on the game (controlling the number of variables).


OK, off the soap box. Specific comments on this game:

Granaries have two important functions: they provide health bonuses when you have the farm resources, and they improve your growth rate (both in general, and after using slavery to build something). Every city should have one.

Forges have three important functions: they provide happy bonuses when you have luxury metals, they boost production when converting hammers to buildings or units, they let you run engineer specialists, increasing you chances of spawning a Great Engineer. The production boost you get also applies when you use slavery, so this is an "almost always" building.

In other words, you should have more than one or two of these in your seven cities.

"Running out of things to build" generally indicates one of two things. Either your research order is really broken, because you aren't planning ahead, or you just won the Space Race :)

Golden ages (which are civ wide) and Bureaucracy (which affects only your capital) boost hammers and commerce - running lots of specialists during those times wastes the golden age.

The big difference between spiritual civs and non spiritual civs is that the latter should plan as few civics changes as possible, where the former should changes civics every time it gives a momentary advantage, and plan strategy that creates these momentary advantages often. Switching civics for 10 turns, then switching back, is very spiritual.

You are allowed, and even encouraged, to spread more than one religion to another civ.

Mercantilism goes really well with pacifism and caste system and representation.
 
Awsome I really appreciate your feedback. What could be causing me to lose the lead and the game eventually everytime at about the half way mark?
 
I'm at work and can't look at the save game, but the typical reason is that you aren't generating enough commerce, and thus too few research beakers. The science slider turns your commerce into research, but if there's too little commerce in your cities, you will still fall behind even at 100% research.

The suggestion to play with the following constraint is an important one:
VoiceOfUnreason said:
You have to develop two cities (not your capital, and not your original city) so that they have more than 100 commerce per turn.

Having a few high-commerce cities is more important than building wonders (thus the first constraint he mentioned). Focusing at least two cities on commerce, starting early in the game with cottages, will help you enormously. It's best to start these early, so that the cottages can develop into towns sooner.

I will look at your save tonight after work.
 
As well as the comments about developing commerce earlier you seem to have got yourself hemmed in.
It's somewhat controversial but you could reload the same game from the beginning a few times and see what happens when you try different strategies e.g. early axe rush using the copper near Mecca;peaceful cottage-spam; farming/specialists and whatever else you've picked up from the forum. Find out for yourself what works best for you before trying diffferent leaders, world types etc.(though a strategy that works best on one map may not be optimum on others, it depends on resources,neighbours, shape of the land etc)
The main reason for running different games from the same start if that it allows you to more or less control the other variables and thus see for yourself the different outcomes you get from using different strategies.
The other area that might be worth considering is deciding on a particular victory type at the start of the game and working towards it from the beginning.
 
I don't see why reloading would be controversial at all, and I also recommed it. New maps are more fun, but if you want to test different strategies, replaying from a save and comparing is always a good way to go.
 
if your problem is anything like mine, it's that you don't have enough focus. try choosing your victory type before you start a game, and always think towards that end. everything from civ + map to your line of techs you choose. and if you want domination or conquest, be as ruthless as possible, never declare war on someone twice if you think you can finish him the first time.
I don't see why reloading would be controversial at all, and I also recommed it
reloading is controversial because people are morally opposed to people cheating in a different way than they cheat. i'm a cheater, and i encourage others to do so, in civilization, as well as in society.
 
It's only cheating if you're in some sort of competition, or make some claim like, "omfg I beat diety!!1!".

Unless you're planning to lie to yourself about winning, you can reload a thousand times and nobody is getting to be cheated out of a damned thing.
 
As another poster pointed out, make sure to build graneries in all cities. It really increases pop growth.

Other than graneries I'd say you need to make sure to build libraries in your research centers. Only build barracks in your troop producing cities.

Instead of making your capital into a GP farm, try cottage spamming at your capital and then use bureacracy to boost your research to new levels.

Try to specialize with your cities, so that some are producing tons of gold and others are producing the bulk of your troops.

I don't emphasize forges as much as a previous poster. In fact, some games I never build them. (I skip past the metal working tech branch in favor of other techs). But I go for fastest finishes, so I may be leading you astray when you're focusing on the basics.
 
Reloading is part of the learning process, and it takes a long time to learn this game. I save game at a critical point, like just before attacking a civ, and then after the war I reload and play on without the attack(because I'm learning). The advice on putting together good cities is good advice and it's essential, but you also have to take down a few civs on the way, so I'd practise attacks, and then relaoding to do it differently, or at a different time to learn how to attack.
Also early attacks, ancient era, seem to be easier to pull off than later when a civ is overtaking you.
 
It's only cheating if you're in some sort of competition, or make some claim like, "omfg I beat diety!!1!".
Unless you're planning to lie to yourself about winning, you can reload a thousand times and nobody is getting to be cheated out of a damned thing.
people get so worked up when you call them cheaters... i'm not saying that you're cheating anyone out of anything, but restarting to ponder on alternate realities, regardless of wether you learn from the process, is certainly an advantage that you enjoy over the AI. you're not cheating anyone, i won't enen say you're cheating yourself, but you're cheating at the game that you're playing that moment. you're continuing on with knowledge of either map or AI intentions and military strength. this gives you an unfair advantage over the AI, you're cheating. i too save before crucial moments like wars, and sometimes i even reload after a success to try other things, so i'm not saying that it's not a valid tool for both learning and enjoyment, but i still think it's cheating. i've cheated at solitaire, it's still cheating!
 
naterator said:
i've cheated at solitaire, it's still cheating!

Yes, of course it's cheating. But civ is a lot more complicated than solitaire, and reloading is the *only* way to compare different strategies, so I just don't see why that would ever be controversial. No harm, no foul. It's not like you were cheating in some competition or a multiplayer game, so why would anyone attempt to treat it as such?

But sure enough, there are people who freak out and preach about what bad people the "cheaters" are, so I guess that's always good for a laugh.
 
Sagboy said:
Awsome I really appreciate your feedback. What could be causing me to lose the lead and the game eventually everytime at about the half way mark?

Research rate (which is primarily driven by commerce rate) and research order.

Take a look at the GNP chart. Notice how Asoka kicked into high gear some time ago, and has simply been pulling away since about 1400? That's about when your problems actually began. It just takes a while for everything to kick in.

Some points of interest. Asoka is running Mercantilism, and you aren't. That's some 10 extra specialists that he's getting for free.

He's got 6 decent commerce cities right now. You've got three. His cities are all smaller than your three good ones too, so he is in a sense generating that research more efficiently than you are. As he starts clearing up his happiness issues, I'd expect that advantage to get a lot bigger.

More bad news: Asoka is up three techs on you right now (Education, Liberalism, Economics, but one turn from now you'll have Economics and he'll have Constitution). Given that his economy is based on towns, he's got to be about ready to swap to free speech (+2C from all his towns - oh dear), and I'd put money that his next research goal is going to be Democracy for the Emancipation civic (faster growing cottages - oh dear).

In other words, Asoka is just now hitting the part of the tech tree where a cottage based economy really starts to take off, and the one he's already got has been leaving you in the dust for a while now.

Now, consider Education. Observatories are a cheaper alternative to Universities except that universities unlock Oxford. Asoka can build six really useful Universities, then drop Oxford somewhere for an extra boost. To build Oxford. The universities you will have to build to do the same aren't nearly as good, because they won't be multiplying nearly as many beakers.

The techs you are up are Military Tradition, Scientific Method, Biology, Steel. These don't fit together nearly as well. Biology goes well with your farms, but scientific method hurt your research. MilTrad and Steel are war techs, primarily. It doesn't go well together.

That's the concept that I think has been missing from all of your games - the ideas you have don't fit together. Your execution is getting better, but the ideas aren't all pulling the same direction, so you aren't going faster.

For instance, Philosophical and farms go well together, running specialists takes good advantage of the philosophical trait. What are the ancient wonders that go well with that? Parthenon gives you a GPP boost, that fits. Pyramids lets you run Representation, getting more beakers from your specialists, so that fits.

But instead you built Stonehenge, the Oracle, the Hanging Gardens, all before either of the two wonders that would have been useful to you came in.

Stonehenge+Oracle+two religions+Saladin is a sweet sweet combination; you'll be absolutely rolling in priests, you've solved your main happiness problems (temples are cheap), you can use the religions to spy on other civs when you spread the religion to them. Angkor Wat becomes a very very big deal, doubling the production of all the priests you'll be running. Max out the surplus food in this city, run priests, attach priests to the city after the shrines are built. Plan to use Wall Street as one national wonder. The priests generate hammers for you, so you'll have a production powerhouse that is generating gold by the bucket. A couple choices for the other national wonder but I would just take National Epic to go hog wild.

Now here comes the magic: let's suppose that you like this idea, and want to make it the cornerstone of your strategy. What's the first tech to research?

Not Ironworking, that's a dead end; it unlocks Compass for you, but harbors really don't have any part to play in this strategy.

A fairly common strategy at low difficulty levels is the CS slingshot: research Code of Laws before the oracle is finished, then choose Civil Service (which gives you Bureaucracy and irrigation). That's a big piece there - immediately able to smear your farms around and kick into a higher leverage civic. Code of Laws also has a religion as a prize, which was part of the strategy. That's a good choice.

The best choice I see on the board is to research Code of Laws with the intention of grabbing Philosophy. That scores you another religion, and the pacifism civic (more GPP points), and it lets you start building the Angkor Wat. Code of laws also lands you Caste System, if you want your entire economy to be based on specialists.

Gazing ahead into the fog, Banking becomes a huge tech, as does CivilService (more farms), Biology (better farms), Corporation (Wall Street), Optics (send missionaries to other lands), Constitution (the Representation civic, if you miss Pyramids).

Pacifism is a peace time civic, though, so work to convert neighbors to your religion, so that you can keep your costs down.

I'm not suggesting that this is the strategy that you should use (although it looks pretty reasonable), but rather that you should choose some strategy, and try to make sure the choices you make fit with that strategy.
 
It ain't cheatin unless you're breaking the rules or deceiving someone.

There's no rule against reloading. (unless you're playing GOTM or HoF)

And you're not deceiving anyone by reloading. (unless you tell people you don't reload.)

Reloading is often the best way to learn for beginners. So I say "reload to your heart's content!" :goodjob: :lol:
 
You guys are awsome, I really appreciate it. Im going to load a game up right now and post is back on here to see if Im correcting my errors.

BTW, This is going to sound stupid, but how does commerce directly effect research? Is it becasue I lower my research rate? Not sure on that one.

Thanks agian sooo much
 
OK checked out the save and there are a few things that would help.

- You have too many specialists.
They're good, but not at the expense of everything else. It's fine to have one city with all farms and a bunch of specialists, acting as a great person farm, but using them in all of your cities means you have very little production and commerce.

Your cities can all grow larger. This is the most glaring issue, and you need to let them grow. You haven't built granaries, and your specialists have stunted their growth. It's a good idea to allow your cities to grow at least close to thier max happiness levels, if not max it out. Ditch the specialists and grow them. Once it hits the max, you can lock the growth, then reassign specialists or just work more tiles (e.g. more towns).

- I'd take down America. More land and resource is always a good way to increase your power and score, and it's so lightly defended, so why not have it as your own?

- Your cities are not focused. Kufah, for example, is building a bank, yet it is barely pulling in any commerce! I'm going to use the world builder and reorganize your cities the way I would use them, then attach a re-save for you to compare. I'll detail my changes one by one, explaining why.

Mecca (Commerce)
You were already running Bureaucracy, which would be far more effective if your capital were more focused on commerce. Work cottages here into towns, and don't worry about production unless a new building becomes available. Forget about wonders etc. and just bring in the commerce with your bureaucracy. With the way I set it up, you can either get 216 beakers by emphasizing commerce, or 3 turn grenadiers with 170 beakers. At this point, I'd probably be pumping out the grenadiers for taking over America, but otherwise I'd be working those towns.

1. Changed most tiles to towns, especially the rivers (+1 commerce). Check out what it would look like if you had been developing cottages for most of the game!
2. Ditched the specialists.
3. Irrigated the two grasslands tiles to the southwest, for three reasons. First, you can use those tiles when you want to grow your city. Secondly, if you want to build a new building, you can use the farms + mines for more production. Lastly, Medina needs the irrigation path.
4. You didn't need the forests. At this stage in the game, you should be trading for more health resources or conquering land and taking them for your own. I turned them into farms and cottages.

Medina (Commerce)
Since it's a coastal city, with several coastal tiles, you may was well go with a commerce focus here.

1. Irrigated a couple of tiles from the river at Mecca. This allows you to work both of your production tiles, work cottages on the rest of them, and still grow.
2. Again, no specialists. You need this city to grow.
3, This city desperately needed a Granary, before the Observatory. It's short on health and also needs to grow. It should also get a harbor, which is relatively cheap to build, before most other buildings. A harbor will give you more health, as well as extra commerce from your trade routes.

Najran (Military)
Plenty of hills for high-production mines, so I declare this town to be one of your military production houses. It really needs growth. Right now you can build grenadiers there every 4 turns while still growing slowly, but I'd probably emphasize growth and let it grow to size 17. At that size, you'd be at your current health maximum, yet you'd also be able to work every tile available and produce a grenadier in 3 turns (actually 2 every 5 turns, with the carryover).

1. Stole the shared tiles from Baghdad, it wont need them.
2. Windmill was changed to mine. You don't need any commerce here.
3. Added Watermills along the river.
4. Deleted your libraries, etc. just to show that you don't need them here. This is a production house, not a commerce center. You get to keep the market and grocer, because they can they give you happiness and health, respectively.
5. Replaced those commerce buildings with a Forge and Granary.

Kufah (Military)
Same concept as Najran. You don't need the bank here that you're building. Just build military and grab more cities! I think you'll have enough food to work all of the tiles after it grows, but I didn't verify.

What you'd want to do is, if you have too much food, change a farm to a watermill or workshop. Not enough food and you can change a mine to a windmill. It's good to have plenty of farms while you're growing, however, so that you can grow more quickly (and put in those granaries!)

After your units get some experience while taking over America, you'd be able to build the Heroic Epic here and really pump out those military units.

1. Changed Windmills to mines.
2. Changed cottage to farm.
3. Again, I deleted the library and observatory, and replaced them with a forge and granary.

Bagdhad (Great People Factory)
Finally, a city I'm going to let you keep your specialists in. ;)
The only thing you absolutely need here is a granary. This city should grow to work all the farm, and then you can max out those specialists. Did not change anything here. You can just farm everything, and build globe theater to eliminate happiness issues.

One thing you might consider is switching from slavery to caste system, so you can have unlimited artists, merchants and scientists. On the other hand, with slavery and the globe theater here, you can whip out some military units or some buildings. Firstly, you need to whip a granary, which will allow it to grow back more quickly.

Chicago
No comment, really. Not sure why you took it? Unless you were having border contentions over that deer, there's nothing there that I would want.

Damascus (Commerce)
Similar to Medina. It needed some more food, so it could work the Incense.

1. Changed mines to Windmills. I left it stagnated right now to show you that it has just exactly enough food to work every relevant tile. I'd first favor the sea tiles over the 1 food tiles, however, in order to let the city grow more. Once it hits the max it'll be balanced to work every tile.

In conclusion, this is only what I would have done with this empire. Others would surely do things differently, but identifying what your city locations are best suited for, and specializing your cities to take advantage of it, are important for everyone.

With this new save, not only are you currently generating more beakers, despite the fact that I deleted a couple of your libraries and observatories, but you also now have two dedicated military cities that can pump out units for the rest of the game. Of course, I cheated you some towns at your capital as well, but let's just assume that you planned it that way from the beginning, shall we? :lol: Once you allow your cities to grow, the differences will be even more dramatic.

And I would smash America for sure. :goodjob:
 
Sagboy said:
BTW, This is going to sound stupid, but how does commerce directly effect research? Is it becasue I lower my research rate? Not sure on that one.

In your last game, you have your science rate set to 100%. A 100% of what?

The answer is commerce, you are telling the game to take 100% of the income from trade routes, and cottages, and luxury resources, and oceans, and make beakers out of it.

There's a longer explanation in this post.
 
So wouldnt it be better to have take 100 percent of commerce for beakers?

Anways, played one of the hardest games I have ever played, I ended up next ot ceaser, monty and peter, along with vicki on my left, I was sandwiched in. Anywho I pulled away with score towards the end and decieded to end it with space race, but monty just wouldnt stop attacking me so it took awhile. Finally won on warlord lvl, but unfortunatly I won through half military and half research, I can win on noble if I go zerg or war mongering, so dont think this was a huge win for me. Ill post my game later with my thoughts, I know I did some stuff that shouldnt have, but I tried to make some more cities with commerce in them also.

OGG, thanks so much man, ill take a look at your update to my save when i get home from class. Once agian thank you all, you all have been very very helpful
 
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