Brazilia development threatens world air supply

[s0nny80y]

If this is indoctrinated into grade school curriculum, why else would Brasilia militarize?

 

[Mustakrakish]

What?

 

[stealth_nsk]

I believe the OP means popular claim about chopping rainforests reducing oxygen supply. The claim is false, because rainforests have zero oxygen balance, but it's still very popular. So as I understand the OP, that's why everyone will hate Brazilia and it will become militaristic.

I'm not saying I agree with it. Most likely the game will not highlight the actual historical reasons behind each leader profile, leaving space for imagination.

 

[Fabio1701]

Am I to understand that you think as the rainforest becomes more valuable other countries threaten to take it over and therefore they militarise as a defensive measure?

Maybe, but I doubt it. Owning the rainforest would not be worth it for other nations because the oxygen it produces is for the whole world and cannot be hoarded. Even if the world got together to grab it because they thought brasil was mismanaged it (which is an unlikely military coalition as can ever be imagined given how hard it is for countries to agree on what to go to war for) they would then have to have the expense if upkeep and preventing illegal logging which is impossible from afar and they would fall back on local ie Brazilian caretakers.

More.likely is this scenario: Brazil is one of the few countries left with a lot of resources so they get a bit ahead of the game, after the great mistake they are able to recover faster than others because of the rainforest buffering environmental damage. Being a superpower suddenly gives them the idea that they should dictate how their neighbour's do things (think Warsaw pact) and since the rest of south America doesn't really like that they militarise to impose their will. There are more than enough "excuses" of messed up economies, corrupt governments and civil violence in many south American nations that it would be easy for Brazil to invade them for "humanitarian purposes", or just making sure their chaos does not spill over into Brazil.

 

[stealth_nsk]

I agree with you except for this one.

Owning the rainforest would not be worth it for other nations because the oxygen it produces is for the whole world and cannot be hoarded.

As I said, rainforest doesn't produce oxygen.

 

[Fabio1701]

I agree with you except for this one.

As I said, rainforest doesn't produce oxygen.

yeah, I posted on the train I think while you were posting too. indeed I rushed through that bit of sloppy science on my part.

It's actually a carbon sink if I remember correctly, scrubbing the C02 we exhale and putting it back in the ground and trees. still bloody valuable!

 

[stealth_nsk]

yeah, I posted on the train I think while you were posting too. indeed I rushed through that bit of sloppy science on my part.

It's actually a carbon sink if I remember correctly, scrubbing the C02 we exhale and putting it back in the ground and trees. still bloody valuable!

Rainforest could absorb lead and other nasty things, but nothing helpful with carbon.

Photosyntheses does CO2 = C + O2, so if ecosystem outputs C somewhere, it also outputs O2, like oceans and peat swamps do. Rainforests just process any carbon they have back, oxidating it in process, with the result of C + O2 = CO2, finishing exactly where it started.

 

[Martin23230]

Rainforest could absorb lead and other nasty things, but nothing helpful with carbon.

Photosyntheses does CO2 = C + O2, so if ecosystem outputs C somewhere, it also outputs O2, like oceans and peat swamps do. Rainforests just process any carbon they have back, oxidating it in process, with the result of C + O2 = CO2, finishing exactly where it started.

Umm, that's not photosynthesis.

That's photosynthesis.
Plants absorb carbon out of the atmosphere, it's called carbon fixation. The Amazon stores a huge amount of carbon, apparently of the order of 130 billion metric tonnes.

 

[SamBC]

Though AIUI, it's not fixing much more as time goes by now. So burning the whole thing = loads of CO2. If you really want to sink carbon, you need mature-but-still-growing forests, IIRC

 

[iRule]

Well, that does seem a bit far-fetched but...

Some recent studies have mentioned that a great part of the world's yet to be explored fossil fuel depots are in Brazil. And they're just accounting for the ones on Brazil's coast, let alone what is under the Amazon.

It could explain Brazil's militarization. That's actually pretty smart and I didn't give it a thought yet. I mean, it beats to Brazil going crazy and expanding into Spanish-speaking America.

 

[Catalytic]

An alternate explanation might take its basis in moves similar to those happening now in Rio. Rio has a lot of slums and with slums comes poverty, drug trade, organized crime, and murder. In their effect to provide a secure environment for the upcoming World Cup and Summer Olympic Games, they've made a massive policing effort to clean up these slums. However, their police have been insufficient, so they've mobilized the military to assist. While it is not a full-fledged war, these soldiers are very much being trained on the job to fight in an urban environment against a well-armed enemy which employs guerrilla tactics.

If we allow our imaginations to run, we could imagine a growing population, shifting criminal elements, and a national war on organized crime that spins out of control. Throw in some expansionist, nationalist leader with the right message in the future and you could very well see Brazil pushing hard against traditional host countries exporting the drug trade and it's criminal organizations.

The US in the 90s armed Colombia and several central American and Caribbean states in an effort to combat the drug trade. They have adapted resulting in some of the most violent criminal organizations in the world coming to power to take over. Brazil is a growing country, much like the post-Civil War US. It's increasingly modern, increasingly wealthy and just starting to tap its natural resources. A wealthy growing population with money to burn fuels the drug trade. Take a country making a commitment to fighting organized crime with their own military and put it against a group of people who see profit and have no scruples and are bringing in product from neighboring countries (Colombia, etc), and you've got a recipe for potential war. It would only take a handful of high-stakes trans-border fire fights to escalate very quickly.

 

[Liex]

An alternate explanation might take its basis in moves similar to those happening now in Rio. Rio has a lot of slums and with slums comes poverty, drug trade, organized crime, and murder. In their effect to provide a secure environment for the upcoming World Cup and Summer Olympic Games, they've made a massive policing effort to clean up these slums. However, their police have been insufficient, so they've mobilized the military to assist. While it is not a full-fledged war, these soldiers are very much being trained on the job to fight in an urban environment against a well-armed enemy which employs guerrilla tactics.

If we allow our imaginations to run, we could imagine a growing population, shifting criminal elements, and a national war on organized crime that spins out of control. Throw in some expansionist, nationalist leader with the right message in the future and you could very well see Brazil pushing hard against traditional host countries exporting the drug trade and it's criminal organizations.

The US in the 90s armed Colombia and several central American and Caribbean states in an effort to combat the drug trade. They have adapted resulting in some of the most violent criminal organizations in the world coming to power to take over. Brazil is a growing country, much like the post-Civil War US. It's increasingly modern, increasingly wealthy and just starting to tap its natural resources. A wealthy growing population with money to burn fuels the drug trade. Take a country making a commitment to fighting organized crime with their own military and put it against a group of people who see profit and have no scruples and are bringing in product from neighboring countries (Colombia, etc), and you've got a recipe for potential war. It would only take a handful of high-stakes trans-border fire fights to escalate very quickly.

That's a very interesting and plausible hypothesis. In the recent published interview, the developers said that the Great Mistake was followed by a "Dark Age", conflicts and humanitarian crises. Given such scenario, it'd be easy to imagine Latin America's troubles with organized crime escalating to a point where a "War on Drugs" would not only be necessary, but would also have deeper geopolitical meanings.

 

[stealth_nsk]

Umm, that's not photosynthesis.

That's photosynthesis.
Plants absorb carbon out of the atmosphere, it's called carbon fixation. The Amazon stores a huge amount of carbon, apparently of the order of 130 billion metric tonnes.

Yes, I know the photosynthesis cycle, it doesn't matter here. What matter is input and output. Plants fix carbon, but after their death they are dissolved by funguses (in case of trees), eaten by bacterias, etc. - outputting CO2 in process. Yes, rainforest stores a lot of carbon, but it doesn't increase the storage, so there's no carbon output.

Compare it to, say, forests of Carbon period - before the effective funguses. It outputted a lot of carbon (which is coal now) and as a result it has highest oxygen concentration in atmosphere (which could be estimated, for example, by largest insects in history - with their breathing their size is generally limited by oxygen concentration).

 

[KrikkitTwo]

That's a very interesting and plausible hypothesis. In the recent published interview, the developers said that the Great Mistake was followed by a "Dark Age", conflicts and humanitarian crises. Given such scenario, it'd be easy to imagine Latin America's troubles with organized crime escalating to a point where a "War on Drugs" would not only be necessary, but would also have deeper geopolitical meanings.

It would be interesting if in 2230 Brazilia beat the ARC in the "Coca War" ie they force legalization

 

[Mustakrakish]

I do wish they'll provide a story behind each nation/faction, as to how it came to be and all, it's all very interesting as you think of all the interesting ways they could come to be. I'll hate it if there won't be any backstory/history to factions, "make your own story" style. In that case they could just as well not bother giving names to the factions and leaders at all.

 

[KrikkitTwo]

I do wish they'll provide a story behind each nation/faction, as to how it came to be and all, it's all very interesting as you think of all the interesting ways they could come to be. I'll hate it if there won't be any backstory/history to factions, "make your own story" style. In that case they could just as well not bother giving names to the factions and leaders at all.

Well hopefully there is a limited story, so that it is enough for minimal believability, without them adding enough detail for people to get tripped up on.

And allow people to fill in Some of their own story.

 

[Makavcio]

Just a little note for the discussion about oxygen production / carbon storage ability of rainforest.

From what I know, rainforest's oxygen balance is not zero. It's positive but the figures are negligible, so if we assume that it's 0, we won't be making a serious mistake. The minimal oxygen output is not as much caused by fungi, rotting etc. as by the simple fact that we have photosynthesis during daytime and during nighttime the whole flora is breathing just like every living organism, thus consuming most of what was produced during daytime.

 

[stealth_nsk]

Just a little note for the discussion about oxygen production / carbon storage ability of rainforest.

From what I know, rainforest's oxygen balance is not zero. It's positive but the figures are negligible, so if we assume that it's 0, we won't be making a serious mistake. The minimal oxygen output is not as much caused by fungi, rotting etc. as by the simple fact that we have photosynthesis during daytime and during nighttime the whole flora is breathing just like every living organism, thus consuming most of what was produced during daytime.

Yes, there's day-night cycle and a lot of all other things. You just can't calculate all processes in the ecosystem. So, measuring output of unoxidized carbon is a fair approach for ecosystem. And yes, that's not absolute zero - there's some organic leaving to ocean and reaching low-life depths. Also, some organic could get buried, etc. But you're correct - that's negligible.

 

[s0nny80y]

Yes, there's day-night cycle and a lot of all other things. You just can't calculate all processes in the ecosystem. So, measuring output of unoxidized carbon is a fair approach for ecosystem. And yes, that's not absolute zero - there's some organic leaving to ocean and reaching low-life depths. Also, some organic could get buried, etc. But you're correct - that's negligible.

Time warp and life on a perfect elliptical sphere spins earth like a dreidel. Along with other factors, day and night is never distributed 50-50. Toronto Raptors for teh win!

 

[Lancor]

Yes, there's day-night cycle and a lot of all other things. You just can't calculate all processes in the ecosystem. So, measuring output of unoxidized carbon is a fair approach for ecosystem. And yes, that's not absolute zero - there's some organic leaving to ocean and reaching low-life depths. Also, some organic could get buried, etc. But you're correct - that's negligible.

So where does our O2, that we breath, come from if not from plants? Are the plants in the rest of the world such heavy O2 producers? I refuse to believe that the rainforest jungles don't produce more O2 than they use up.