Brittish Isles Succession Game - The Saxon Menace

[Charis]

Shaitan,

I think an "open" (grab-the-game) succession would be a poor choice for a mod, where they might grab one turn, have no idea what a berzerker or Brehon Law is and come up with foolishness. Having someone stick with it a while is much better. Also you'll get no useful feedback on the mod if someone 'dips in' for a turn once in a while.

As far as opening it up to new players, sure!! (Xrang, hi!) Recruit or from time to time post messages in here "Any lurkers who have been following care to join in, we can use more!" -- that would be great.

I dare say for this game experience is less important than in some other ones - again in part due to the fact this is a mod and no one is a Saxon-guru yet.

Charis

 

[xrang]

what exactly do you want me to do? i know that sounds stupid but I need to know these things

 

[Shaitan]

150 Bumped up science spending. Running a budget deficit but will get Brehon Law 10 turns faster. Analysts decide the military is overbudgeted and that there are enough forces to complete the Wessex campaign already in theatre. Unit training exercises are abandoned across the country in favor of domestic works projects. (image)

130 Dorsetshire assaulted by two understrength Berzerkers. Both succeed in destroying a spearman defender. Dorsetshire will fall at our will.

110 Dorsetshire falls. Troops from Essex are heading for the western Wessex cities. The main assault force will take out the eastern ones. Snap, crackle, pop! Libraries will soon start popping up all over the place, encouraged by the whip.

90 Resistance in Dorsetshire ends. Lose a bowman from the eastern assault force to incompetence (died attacking a half strength warrior).

70 Library construction has shaved 10 turns off Brehon Law research. Treasury is looking sad though.

50 Mixed results on both fronts. New Wessex capital of Salsbury hit hard. Will fall when we next attack it.

30 We've discovered that the Manx city of Douglas has completed the Great Lighthouse. Hopefully we'll be able to get off of this rock without it. Salsbury and Southampton fall. Forces move on the new Wessex capital of Reading. Caewalla requests peace, for which he will offer...nothing. The people of Essex are not amused.

10 Movement but no combat action.

0 (non turn) Millenium celebrations are held all across the land. In the east, a bright light is seen in the sky. Is it the herald of a new messiah? Nope, turns out to be burning Wessex cities.

10AD Elite Horsemen conquer Alesforda (Western assault force).

30 Elite Berzerkers conquer Reading (Eastern assault force).

50 Our palace is expanded again. Culture from our many libraries is quickly covering our desert island. Elite horse driven back from Wdetun (Western force). Berzerk assault force in place for next assault. Treasury is virtually bankrupt. Decision is made to continue defecit spending and sacrifice troops to pay the budget.

70 Elite Berzerkers conquer Wdetun. Wessex has one city remaining (Quenta).

90 Loidis and Enfield are set up to pump out workers.

110 Brehon Law research will be completed momentarily. We're able to adjust our budget to run in the black again.

130 Brehon Law is discovered. We enter a period of blissful anarchy as we reorganize the government.

150 Most major cities have fallen into disorder but the enraged populace have not begun looting or destroying structures yet. Assault on Quenta fails but all defenders have been eliminated except for one severely depleted spearman.

170 Riots in Enfield. Barracks destroyed. Quenta is destroyed by ravening berzerkers. The fledgling Wessex are no more. We have completed our manifest destiny and taken the entirety of our island continent. (image)

Notes: There are a few places on the coast where we should stick some Dry Gulch cities to completely envelop the island in our borders. There are many, many pirate ships watching our coast so when we do get galleys we will probably lose a few. Speaking of galleys, boy do we need some of those. Map Making is up for research and it should be a fairly fast learn as we'll be in Brehon Law and just about every other civ probably has it already. I was hoping for a leader so we could relocate the capital smack in the middle of our desert isle but no luck there. Building palace isn't an option without a leader. We could put the Forbidden Palace down south but then would have no option for effective expansion off of the island.

Charis, you're up. Goal is 15 turns now. A few more or less is okay, player's discretion.

 

[Shaitan]

Charis, excellent points regarding an open game. We'll definitely keep it closed.

xrang, email me at jrpea@bellsouth.net and I'll give you the skinny.

 

[Charis]

Excellent job taking our destiny, the island of Essex!

Agreed, we need at least 3 settlers I would say to close out the borders. The AI is VERY aggressive on grabbing those 'last spots' in someone else's territory. In border 'gap' cities good job building libraries, I'll make sure those are everywhere border expansion is needed.

I'm seeing this Anarchy mistake in several of my SG games now, so here's a tip: Under conditions of civil disorder, which you are prone to have for several turns under Anarchy, things get destroyed. Sometimes painfully expensive things. There's no need for this - when you go Anarchy, go through the cities and make as many entertainers as needed to keep them happy. You get no shields anyway, so it's almost painless - the only 'iffy' case at all is when it would starve a city. The "fast" way to do this which takes only a few seconds even for a huge nation... zoom in on a city and click your cursor on the 'center' city square. Don't move it. It will readjust citizens to avoid unhappiness. Press the right arrow button on your keyboard, it will move you to next city. Click moust button (still over the city center tile). Arrow. Repeat click-and-arrow right after the other, don't even wait. You can avoid revolt in dozens of cities in just a few seconds. When you research the new governement, repeat the process to get rid of the entertainers and make them productive again. Micromanagers will then go through and reassign citizens as needed, but that's not required for a casual player.

In one game this wasn't done, a harbor was lost on a second continent, and bam, a ton of luxiries and resources were cut off. That was VERY painful.

Another thought based on your last message, Shaitain. What you might have is a post or a Readme-like file that describes for people PLAYING this mod just what the key differences are. I still have no clue other than the berzerker and the Ulf which I've seen repeatedly in combat. A one page bit on the names of the civs, their UU and what makes them different, and on key tech changes like Brehon Law, would be good. Post rather than email.
(Ok, one MORE comment. I saw your replies in the graphic mod threads. That fire longbowman just ROCKS! Minor bombardment role and normal archer powers, and a gool gfx. Likewise some other gfx do look great for this mod). My only feedback question at this point is that I'm not sure berzerkers (and perhaps several other UU's) aren't imbalanced. For when you get them, they just dominate TOO much. 5-1-1 in the early ancient era is just a crusher. Why make anything else besides a spearman to protect them? You don't see that kind of firepower in a Civ3 normal unit until *Cavalry*. In UU's, not until Cossacks. The Persian immortal is borderline imbalanced at 4-2-1, would you like to face a 5-1-1 immortal? If you're going for "difference", 5-1-1 is certainly novel, but really it should come around... hmm... Feudalism? If you want them earlier or want better balance, 4-1-1 for a UU that early (or even 4-2-1 like Immortal) would work. That's just 2 cents based on the game so far, I've not gone over the mod changes in detail to know what other civs are like. (When we face them I sure will though ;P)

Good job on the conquest
Charis

 

[Grey Fox]

there is also a governor that maintains happiness...

 

[Shaitan]

Thanks for the mod feedback, Charis. It's incredibly helpful for the continuing development of the mod.

There is a readme.txt in the mod file. I can post that here as well. Maybe add it to the threadstart post...

The berzerker and ulfedhn do seem a bit potent. Our berzerks definitely steamrolled Northumbria and Wessex. I'm not sure exactly why we did so well against Northumbria as the Ulfedhn generally take down Berzerkers. Probably just that Northumbria didn't build enough Ulfedhn.

What I thought would be the balance is that any old horseman can wack either one. Backing them up with spearmen makes them uberpowerful. I like your suggestion on delaying them. Stormerne has suggested that they come in with Polytheism instead of ironworking (as they are warriors devoted to Odin). I think I'll playtest and probably implement that.

Grey Fox - that's why I was caught flat footed by all the riots. I normally use the governors and was lost without my "crutch"

 

[Charis]

The post-war turn went very well, with a HUGE increase in jobs for workers, settlers and city founding, and not bad for military too...

The realm is in Anarchy, the people cry out for Brehon Law!!

170 AD (0) - The Charis clan of the O'Saebert line comes once again to power.
Their survey of the realm starts quite strong. The island is theirs, and theirs
alone. He makes plan to insure it STAYS that way. With their berzerkers the
dominant force of their time, finding another land to conquer would work
well (hehe, we ARE expansionist and militaristic). But to do that we'll need:
mapmaking, and better production, so it's a time for building. He awaits the
official installment of his new government and is happy to see in the meantime
that temples are being built. In the meantime he bones up on Brehon Law...

Good efficiency, Pay labor, nuisance corruption, MP of 4 (!), unit support 2/4/8
and draft rate of 1. Compared to monarchy less corruption, more MP, and the
same unit support. (Comment to Shaitan: it "dominates" Monarchy, not really
a good thing. It's better in everyway except draft, no real tradeoffs)
Compared to republic, same corruption and efficiency, much more unit support
and a ton more MP. And no war weariness! (Worse imbalance. Basically it's just
too good. It makes the other two ancient govts useless. If there's a commerce
bonus for Republic not in Brehon, then it only dominates Monarchy. Actually,
this )

Alas, just one problem that Charis O'Saebert sees. We're too soon for Brehon.
That gaggle of temples was just crying out, yearning for a good whipping.
We'll make do, but if we were religious and no anarchy penalty, I would revert
back, whip for about 4 turns, then re-revolt to Brehon
On this difficulty this won't set us back at all, so not to worry.

Oops, sorry, more than one problem. Courthouse being built in a city right
next to our capitol??! As one who has suffered under the influcence, Charis O'
immediately recognizes this as pure weed effect With so many shields
already done towards it, he shifts it to palace 'placeholder' for a wonder.
Once we get a tech that allows a wonder we want to build, it can be switched
over to that. Looking at how many have already been snarfed, that might not
be until Sun Tzu or Sistine. The courthouse in Hatfield is also useless,
with only 1 gold and 1 shield loss. We take a settler instead, needing about
3-5 more to fill out the island.

BUG REPORT: The shields box for the 'Palace' in Welwyn isn't showing up right.
It's keeping track properly, just showing a 1 column box for some reason.

Oh, now the young celt-turned-essex Charis is going to get chastised for being
far too picky, but... he fires all the governors! Just not good for succession,
the choices are poor- in nine cities citizens needed to be moved, they've all
been smoking weed too!. They would even starve a city to make entertainers that
weren't needed.

190 AD (1) - 230 (3) Not much going on really... London soon goes into troop
mode, one zerker per two rounds, Enfield likewise one spearman per two.
With Brehon's great Military Police rate of 4, we can build up for our
next invasion AND keep the people happy, at no unit support cost
(These cities are chosen both for high shield rate and for barracks. Non-
barracks cities on troops were taken off)

250 AD (4) - Scots finish the Great Wall. (They must all be together on a
continent, their rate of research and getting techs is blowing us away.)
We actually have four stellar production cities, just nothing to produce
in the way of infrastructure yet.

260 AD (5) - Loidos is set up as a "worker farm"!! This is a size 7 city
with a granary and 10 shields per turn. It cranks out literally one
worker per turn. When it does the larger food box of a size 7 city instantly
fills the size 6 box and it grows/produces another worker, cycling again.
These workers can both work the land or join other slow growing cities.
BTW, when the AI assesses your military strength is goes purely
by 'number of units'. That counts workers By the end of my reign
or next, they will feel true fright of our military might!

300 AD (9) - Fishing/whaling village of Meresig founded. We continue working
hard at a massive road network. It will help our commerce alot, and make
movement over this large island much quicker.

320 AD (11) - Map Making learned, Mathematics started. We've still got ages
to go before temples are done to be able to start on better things.
Southampton gets a Galley queued up after it's temple, in 5 turns.

BUG: Gah, for some reason can't select 'Harbor' for Stanstead Abbot.
It's listed but greyed out. Hmmm... if I right-click on city instead of
zoom, I can (and do!) (I'll try to attached year 310 AD save file to
see palace box and harbor listing bugs). I start the harbor before the
galley because there are a dozen barbarian ships patrolling our shores!

330 AD (12) - We queue up a scout to board the upcoming galley. The people
like the harbor so much they build onto the palace. (Just noticed how far
up the luxury slider is. We'll need yet more MP troops to cut that down)

350 AD (14) - Hyrpis reaches size 7 with a granary and starts a barracks.
It should likely crank troops for a while after that.

Stopping at 14 to get an nice round number for final year. The F11 screen
shows us that we're #1 in population, GNP and productivity, and #2 in land
area. These are VERY good signs! Literacy could be higher (ya, could have
whipped the libraries as well as temples, but we're onto higher forms of
rule by the people now! )

Tips for next leader...

- Support costs are starting to get to us. May have to stop short the
worker factory (for now) or start adding some workers to the smaller
cities.
- Harbor then Galley in Southhampton. Take a berzerker and a scout on a
long ride and see the world!
- Don't let Welwyn confuse you. Leave its production as it is and someday
we'll get a wonder there.
- May need to, now or soon, cut back science rate to help budget. Can't
turn back luxury rate or London will riot (get a settler from there if
needed)

Good luck,
Charis

 

[Charis]

Saitain, this file should show the palace shield box bug in
Welwyn. And this turn or next, try zooming to city and changing
to harbor off the current granary in Stanstead Abbot.

See if you see the same problems (?)

Charis

 

[Shaitan]

Originally posted by Charis
Saitain, this file should show the palace shield box bug in
Welwyn. And this turn or next, try zooming to city and changing
to harbor off the current granary in Stanstead Abbot.

See if you see the same problems (?)

Couldn't reproduce the harbor wierdness but I've definitely got the palace bug. That is VERY odd as there haven't been any changes to the palace in the mod. Tried it in other saves and in a new game and all showed up the same way - 1 column with nothing filled. Keep an eye out for this in other improvements. I'm going to go back through the versions and see where it kicked in. Can hopefully isolate the offending party that way.

You're right on Brehon Law, it's just too good. I'll be lowering the MP to 1 and free units to 1/2/4. That'll give it advantages and disadvantages to both of the other ancient governments.

Note to all players
Version 8 was posted today. Please do not try to use that version for the succession game. There were changed to civ specific abilities in this version and there's no telling what that will do in an existing game.

 

[Charis]

Looks like you're getting some good feedback on the mod in its thread, and making good progress incorporating them
I do like the Berzerker coming with Polytheism, good call.

> You're right on Brehon Law, it's just too good. I'll be lowering the MP to 1 and free units to 1/2/4

A move in the right direction, but that won't work either
(EDIT-- unless I've misread Civopedia entry on it, see below)

The key advantage of Mon or Rep over despotism is you stop losing bonuses for food and mining over 3, as well as some decrease in corruption. The difference between Mon and Rep is basically... how do you make your people happy? In Monarchy it's with MP. Rep gets higher commerce, which is enough to let you crank up the luxury slider to compensate for lack of MP. In fact, with marketplaces in place, your *net* gain in commerce after subtracting the NEEDED luxury increase is medium, and to compensate, war weariness is added into the mix. Thus Monarchy is where you want to be if in war, Republic if relative peace (add Democracy for dominant peace and Communism for dominant war). There's a good balance.

Now if you do NOT give Brehon MP 4, and cut the unit costs covered per city, and do NOT give it the Republic commerce bonus, it's owned by Monarchy. What I guess I'm not clear on is if you get the Republic/Democracy 'commerce bonus' with Brehon Law. If so, then actually it will work, it a very nice compromise between Monarchy and Republic, but you need to make this clear in the Civilopedia. One other compounding factor to mention. If you don't give the commerce bonus to Brehon, it won't have the cash to rush things, and the rush method is cash not people.

btw, with 1 MP and 1/2/4 support, we need to change gears *ASAP* in our game!! We'll be thrown into a virtual depression short on cash, with our high population, high military unit count, and 'abundant' worker count! (yet we need those workers to improve the mining to get more shields to build temples and marketplaces in less than 500 years, and to increase commerce by more roads)

If you want just a touch more power to Brehon (and it won't have a big effect in our game, not saying it because of that) would be to have Brehon kicked up a notch on how well it reduces corruption. Historically... was Brehon law known for times of harmony and low corruption, strong commerce, mistreatment of workers, a heavy police/military presence, or perhaps even increased worker efficiency? I have no clue, but you likely do

One far-out thought for the mod... was "Feudalism" a form of government in the British isles under this time period? If so, it would make a natural replacement for Communism. Communal corruption (decreased but farther spread), rush by laborers, good MP bonus - overall comparable in power to Communism.
Or (I'm really stretching here), was their a British-specific type of Democracy that could be made into its own new type, whether 'added' or a replacement for Comm or regular Dem ?

While I'm throwing out random thoughts... did they have any special siege engines, more effective than a catapult but predating the cannon? There's a huge gap in time and in power between those two at present, something in between around Invention would be a nice addition! (If there is historical basis for it, again, no clue)

Charis

 

[Shaitan]

Yes, I am getting some excellent feedback

First, changes won't affect our game. We have to continue using versions 6.2 to 7. Version 8 has changes in civ specific abilities and some other background tweaks that might give unpredictable results on a game started in an earlier version. So no worry about Essex going bankrupt because of Brehon Law changes.

Speaking of Brehon Law, if I give the commerce bonus there won't it completely overshadow Republic? Same corruption, plus MP and free units. I've been toying with using Communal corruption for Brehon Law. Brehon Law structure was myriad little kinglets under the overall direction of the high king. Corruption wasn't really a factor of distance or travel because there was strong, local, autonomous leadership in each of the minor kingdoms. Thoughts?

Feudalism came a bit later than the focus of the mod. Then again, all of the techs are available in the main mod so there's no reason not to incorporate it. Problem was, Feudalism was an attrociously bad form of centralized government. Brehon Law, Republic and probably even pure Monarchy were superior. There may be some other government forms that were used by the various peoples. I'll look into it.

Don't even get me started on siege machines! The catapult was a poor weapon and was only in use for a very short time. It was quickly replaced by torsion driven engines that had much greater range, power, accuracy and reliability. The trebuchet was the fulmination of the torsion siege engines. Perhaps I can put a trebuchet somewhere between catapult and cannon...

Keep the feedback coming. This is great stuff!

 

[Grey Fox]

It seems like Communal corruption might be good with Brehon law.

When I first played the Mod, I saw that it had all that was good with Monarchy and Republic and that it was better than Democracy in some ways.

You might wanna put in some War weariness too. It seems like a more peaceful government than Monarchy. Were the people are little more free. And the less opressed the people is, the more war-weariness...

 

[xrang]

Good point

 

[Shaitan]

I playtested with communal corruption and it works well. It is not as lucrative as Republic and not quite as good in war time as Monarchy. If you want a government to go through various periods of war and peace though, this one works extremely well. I'll most likely include these changes in version 9.

Grey Fox - are you skipping your turn again? Xrang has been patiently waiting for you.

 

[Grey Fox]

Sorry for keeping you wait, remember that I live in sweden so I can play when you guys sleep...

Well do I install the latest Mod or what?

 

[Shaitan]

Originally posted by Grey Fox
Sorry for keeping you wait, remember that I live in sweden so I can play when you guys sleep...

Well do I install the latest Mod or what?

Not a problem, just let us know as soon as possible. Xrang could have snuck in a turn there.

No, don't install the latest Mod. There were some mechanics changes in Version 8 that are not compatible with games started in earlier versions. We'll stick with versions 6.2 or 7 for this game.

 

[Grey Fox]

So wich save-file should I play with now then?

 

[Shaitan]

Originally posted by Grey Fox
So wich save-file should I play with now then?

saebert of the essex, 350 ad.zip posted by Charis

 

[Grey Fox]

Then I'm away to Essex once again. City improvements is our main goal, right?

And some exploring of the sea if I can or what?