[BTS] HOLY WARS Mod

I am still looking into a Resolution that can remove the Defy vote option. Maybe something along the lines of being voted a "God-King" where your rule is absolute and you get to keep this "God-King" status as long as your side is winning the war.

all very well thought out, but wouldn't it just be easier to remove defy from the AP altogether?

btw, i posted a new version of your mod with mine combined. it's under your name since i said i'd be collaborating with YOU. it's on my "THE CRUSADES" link in sig.
 
all very well thought out, but wouldn't it just be easier to remove defy from the AP altogether?

btw, i posted a new version of your mod with mine combined. it's under your name since i said i'd be collaborating with YOU. it's on my "THE CRUSADES" link in sig.

Well, the question is does being the "resident" of the AP give you absolute power? If so then why even vote at all, why not just make the rules as you see fit. If not, then there is the vote process.. and if someone doesn't agree with the vote are they allowed to speak out? If not then someone must have absolute power in order to prevent anyone from speaking out. Do you see the predicament that is created?

What I am suggesting is that until the members vote to give full power to the AP resident there is still a chance a player want agree with the Vote. As far as current game rules go being the AP resident doesn't give you total power.. you are just the guy that gets to pick what resolutions are voted upon, and even the AP resident has to cast his vote. So in the current game the AP is a democracy.

And like I stated before I don't want to make it easy for the player to dominate the world. If its easy then there is no game, there is no challenge. It would be no more fun than tyeing your shoes, once you learn how to tie them :crazyeye:

Anyway, sorry for the elaboration but its something to think about.

Edit.. oh yeah thats cool about the combo. I can up load a version with no Defy at some point to test it out if you would like also.

PS here is another thought.. the Player isn't always the AP resident.. so what if the AI wants to declare Holy War and the player just so happens to be right in between the infidels and the other AP members.. so if Holy War is declared he will be the first to get attacked.. what if he is weak and wants some extra time to build up his forces... Defy!!!
 
PS here is another thought.. the Player isn't always the AP resident.. so what if the AI wants to declare Holy War and the player just so happens to be right in between the infidels and the other AP members.. so if Holy War is declared he will be the first to get attacked.. what if he is weak and wants some extra time to build up his forces... Defy!!!

of course, you're right, but i was looking at it from a minimalist code perspective. obviously, you have shown yourself to be both ambitious and more than capable in C++, so if you can get it to work like i think you said you want it to work, then by all means, i wanna see it cuz it sounds way cool. to recap:

you said you want to add a resolution to allow absolute power (or maybe, remove defiance) to the AP resident. thereby, under such resolution, no one can use defy for X number of turns.

as such, how many turns? i am thinking, again, minimalistically, until after the next vote. thus:

1) turn 5. vote once for absolute power
2) turn 10. whatever you says goes (or whatever you vote upon cannot be defied)
3) turn 15. repeat step 1
4) turn 20. repeat step 2

if that's what you mean or something like it. i totally agree.

my next project is to add a marshall and sergeant for the teutons. then i will work on adding crusader units for the muslims. hashashim (and mamluk?) are on my list. if you have any ideas, please shoot them b4 you go off to study/leave town.
 
This could add some interesting options for the player. Here are some ideas...

The way the rules are now I believe each AP resident gets to propose 3 resolutions before there is another vote held for who gets to sit in the AP. So, if a player gets approved to have Absolute power (also note if a player has Absolute Power other members of the AP should be more inclined to vote "Yes" on resolutions he proposes) then say after 3 resolutions the AI evaluates the AP resident and if things are going well there want be a vote for a new AP resident. But if things are going bad for any of the members they may call for a revote.

If only one calls for a revote then if that vote fails to oust the AP resident then the AP resident has an option to declare war on, or excommunicate the one who called for a revote or the member could chose to renounce his AP membership.

If more than one calls for a revote the strongest one of the recallers could be pitted against the AP resident in a new vote. And depending on how the vote goes and the Members reaction it could end in a Civil War between members, the AP resident getting excommunicated, or the AP resident just retains his title, etc.

This could simulate the rise and fall of leader figures through out history, but from a religious point of veiw. Much like the emperors of the Roman Empire back in the day. So many of them became Absolute Rulers just to be ousted or assassinated by other members of the Senate. "Et tu, Brute? Then fall, Caesar! "

That would be some bit of coding but I believe it would be pretty simple once I figured it out. Right now I am adding the 3 new Force Civic options and its a pain cause the Civics work different than the other vote options but I am making progress.
 
This could add some interesting options for the player. Here are some ideas...

The way the rules are now I believe each AP resident gets to propose 3 resolutions before there is another vote held for who gets to sit in the AP. So, if a player gets approved to have Absolute power (also note if a player has Absolute Power other members of the AP should be more inclined to vote "Yes" on resolutions he proposes) then say after 3 resolutions the AI evaluates the AP resident and if things are going well there want be a vote for a new AP resident. But if things are going bad for any of the members they may call for a revote.

If only one calls for a revote then if that vote fails to oust the AP resident then the AP resident has an option to declare war on, or excommunicate the one who called for a revote or the member could chose to renounce his AP membership.

If more than one calls for a revote the strongest one of the recallers could be pitted against the AP resident in a new vote. And depending on how the vote goes and the Members reaction it could end in a Civil War between members, the AP resident getting excommunicated, or the AP resident just retains his title, etc.

This could simulate the rise and fall of leader figures through out history, but from a religious point of veiw. Much like the emperors of the Roman Empire back in the day. So many of them became Absolute Rulers just to be ousted or assassinated by other members of the Senate. "Et tu, Brute? Then fall, Caesar! "

That would be some bit of coding but I believe it would be pretty simple once I figured it out. Right now I am adding the 3 new Force Civic options and its a pain cause the Civics work different than the other vote options but I am making progress.

by all means, do it if you can. however, i just want to point out some historical accuracy... this does indeed seem to simulate how the Roman Catholic Church was, in fact, divided. this was known as the Great
Schism. the first (east-west one) resulted in the establishment of the roman catholic church separate from the eastern orthodox. i believe there is a mod which tries to simulate this already--but i doubt it has anything to do with the AP. the mechanics you describe really doens't go against what happened in real life, so i am for it! but, ideally, any civil wars should result in the introduction of a new religion. you should look into what mod already exists to figure out what they did or you can make your own--if you plan to go that route. i wonder though if that's too complicated! but if you're game, man, i say go for it. you'll definitely get much kudos from all of us for even trying and getting something half decent. there are very few coders and very few try something as ambitious as this...

on a side note. i was thinking again about making the AP resident an absolute position by default. the historical reason stands, for sure, but i think there is a way to make it work without unbalancing the game. if you've played medieval 2: total war, you'll note that they handle the papacy quite differently can civ 4 does: in that game, the pope is AI controlled and works for no one. now, i'm not suggesting that, but there are other checks and balances that we can copy from that game:

1. the Pope can call for you to stop warring against a fellow Christian. if you don't, you can be excommunicated (and any other Christian kingdom can attack you as they please without invoking the wrath of the Papacy)
2. just keep the revote going, as already coded. a bad resident will eventually be ousted.
3. how many votes you get is based on how "pious" your kingdom is: how many religous buldings you have in addiiton to how many priests. you can simulate this in civ 4 by counting how many temples, monastaries, cathedrals, and missionaries you have of the AP's religion. (ideally, you could make a religion meter which tracks what percentage of population in each city is a particular religion, but that might get too complex)
4. joining a crusade grants papal favor. successfully completing a crusade (in that game, the pope directs the capture of a single enemy city) results in even greater favor. while favor may be too difficult to do in civ 4, you make it so that every happiness is added to all civ's cities with the AP religion--but only for civs that AREN'T the resident and only for cities weren't newly acquired in the holy war. so here is a reward for complying and not defying... which simulates the indulgences granted by the pope.

as such, the AP resident can only wield absolute power for a very short time. you can add disfavor for bad holy wars as well. this is very balanced and requires less code... and ultimately, is historically accurate. it would be difficult for any human player to abuse the AP because he still subject to a democratic vote. and if he pisses other civs off, he loses their vote. so keeping good relations is key to keeping the seat.

and when you said you a player might want to defy a resolution to build up his forces, that's fine, because you can still build up forces without having to join the Holy War. remember that the way you coded it is that it is a defensive pact and only civ actually declares Holy War--which works great b/c in history, no Pope forced anyone to go crusading, but they didn't, there would just be consequences. now, if said civ doesn't go to war and get excommunicated, remember that the AP resident may not get your votes next time, and maybe you'll be resident next time.

so, in conclusion, i think the solution that is both balanced and historically accurate is to make the AP resident choose resolutions that go into effect without a vote with each civ having an option to defy it (though not making it null). thus, as described above, if i want to force organized religion, it happens--but each individual civ is given the option to defy it for their own particular civ. if i want to sanction holy war, it happens automatically, and the mechanics remain the same as is since no one civ is forced to go to war yet. defiance results in the AP resident having the option to excommunicate any one member. but, of course, what goes around comes around...
 
Thanks surdanis for that info. I am not up to date on Papacy history so all info on that is much appreciated. I will consider it all when I get to that part. I finally worked out adding in 3 new Religion Civics to Vote on. The code wasn't set up for adding in multiple Civic Votes within the same category so I had to add extra code to compensate to make it work out as intended.

I am gonna make one more change this evening before I upload the next version. I want to make it so that if a Full Member gets demoted to Voting Member and Holy War is Declared he want get targeted as well, only none members get attacked. That will only take a short time to do but I have to run out for a while now. But like I said look for the next update download later on tonight. :goodjob:
 
Update to 0.2 Alpha

Download 0.2 Alpha
Download 0.2 Alpha surdanis Crusader Combo Note users of both mods should check out surdanis Crusader Mod thread for any updates he may add

I. Rule Changes

A. New Force Civics (only one Civic is forced at a time in the Religion Category)
1. Organize to Strengthen our Faith (Force Organized Religion, can lead to Sanction or Declare Holy War)
2. Pacifism is the true way to Faith (Force Pacifism, leads to Promote World Peace)

B. Force Civics rules
1. if a force civic is PASSED, then you pass another the first is canceled
2. if Promote World Peace is passed and you cancel force civic Pacifism the Emissaries are recalled
3. if Holy War is Declared and you cancel the prereq Civic, the bonuses for Holy War are removed

C. Voting Rules
1. only Full Members can Defy resolutions, if a Full Member Defys they are then demoted to Voting Member and can not Defy until they vote yes on a resolution that passes
2. All War Related AP resolutions require Full Membership to vote
3. Only Full Members receive combat bonuses under Holy Wars

surdanis Check out the rule in Bold. Now members only have one chance to Defy, after that they can't defy anymore until they get back their Full Membership status. That will help in getting resolutions passes as after first time it gets Defied the next time that member can only vote No.

Please test all the rules above and that they are working as intended.

To those wanting the source code I'll upload that asap sometime tomorrow!
 
seems pretty fair and much better than b4. will test it out. i may post something new in the next few days.

looks like the mamluks will be the islamic equivalent of crusading knights--at least in the game. their historical significance as islamic warriors is quite large.
 
hi,

im interested in merging this mod into overlord2,

do i have your premission?

and if so,
i wanna know, is the mod stable? anyone had a ctd or smtng?

:)

**edit***

can you upload the sdk for 0.2?

Yeah, by all means add away :)
There haven't been any CTD reported yet but its a fairly new download.

I just uploaded the source code.. it can be found in the below link...
http://www.atomicgamer.com/file.php?id=68888

Most of the code where I added things I tried to always put "//TKadded" but I haven't had the chance to fully make it modder friendly. So just do a file search in the folder/search for world or phrase inside the files for the "//TKadded" tag.
 
NOTICE: I use the terms Holy War and Infidel with no prejudice. As history records that during the Crusades Muslims call Christians "Infidels" and the Christians call the Muslims the same, although the Christians stole the term from the Muslims. In this mod Infidels merely means any Civ that does not have the APs religion, and the AP can have any of the religions.
Actually, the term "infidel" comes from Latin "infidelis," which means "unbeliever." Both Christians and Muslims used it against each other, but Muslims call non-Muslims "kaffir."

This seems good for stimulating Holy Wars. I'll have to give it a shot and then post my comments later.
 
thanks Kailric !

well you oploaded the entire dll files... can you write the files you changed? if not,
it means that ill have to go through every single file.. if you can help ...that will be appriciated.


edit**

ok,
i busted my self serching for your code,

i think i found all the files you changed, it wasnt easy,
also you havnt commented out all your changes which makes it more difficult,

and also,
you should stick to one tag:
//tk or // tk was here.....

or maybe just // holy war...

plz for your next release use this line of work,
i assure you if youll make it easy for modders, many will use this wonderfull mod.

kel.
 
thanks Kailric !

well you oploaded the entire dll files... can you write the files you changed? if not,
it means that ill have to go through every single file.. if you can help ...that will be appriciated.


edit**

ok,
i busted my self serching for your code,

i think i found all the files you changed, it wasnt easy,
also you havnt commented out all your changes which makes it more difficult,

and also,
you should stick to one tag:
//tk or // tk was here.....

or maybe just // holy war...

plz for your next release use this line of work,
i assure you if youll make it easy for modders, many will use this wonderfull mod.

kel.
I know what you mean, and sorry about that too. Really, I didn't realize I was actually going to be able to do as much as I did so I wasn't trying to keep up with changes that much. But definitely in the future I will do a better job of keeping up with it all and I planned on making the source more modder friendly but I Haven't had a chance to yet.

If you have fixed it to make easier for you... if you can upload it or send me the files I'll upload them for others to use as well.

I want be able to get on a pc for a few days after I leave here tomorrow. So, I'll see you guys when I get back home.

Edit: I am back now from vacation
 
Well, the question is does being the "resident" of the AP give you absolute power? If so then why even vote at all, why not just make the rules as you see fit. If not, then there is the vote process.. and if someone doesn't agree with the vote are they allowed to speak out? If not then someone must have absolute power in order to prevent anyone from speaking out. Do you see the predicament that is created?

What I am suggesting is that until the members vote to give full power to the AP resident there is still a chance a player want agree with the Vote. As far as current game rules go being the AP resident doesn't give you total power.. you are just the guy that gets to pick what resolutions are voted upon, and even the AP resident has to cast his vote. So in the current game the AP is a democracy.

And like I stated before I don't want to make it easy for the player to dominate the world. If its easy then there is no game, there is no challenge. It would be no more fun than tyeing your shoes, once you learn how to tie them :crazyeye:

Anyway, sorry for the elaboration but its something to think about.

Edit.. oh yeah thats cool about the combo. I can up load a version with no Defy at some point to test it out if you would like also.

PS here is another thought.. the Player isn't always the AP resident.. so what if the AI wants to declare Holy War and the player just so happens to be right in between the infidels and the other AP members.. so if Holy War is declared he will be the first to get attacked.. what if he is weak and wants some extra time to build up his forces... Defy!!!

Yeah, Defy is worth keeping - like I said. Anyway, I'm going to try something Crusady.;)
 
I got this XML error message upon loading: Tag: UNITVLASS_CRUSADE in Info class was incorrect, current XML file is: xml\GameInfo\CIV4ForceControlInfos.xml.

I checked and the Crusade unit wasn't in.
 
I got this XML error message upon loading: Tag: UNITVLASS_CRUSADE in Info class was incorrect, current XML file is: xml\GameInfo\CIV4ForceControlInfos.xml.

I checked and the Crusade unit wasn't in.

Hey, yeah.. sorry about that.. the ini file needed to be changed to except modules.

You can just either change the Holy Wars Combo 0.2 alpha config file as below

[CONFIG]

; Modular XML Loading
ModularLoading = 1

or download the newest version as I just posted the fix

Also, surdanis says he has a newer version of his mod than what I have so you may want to download his and add it to the combo version.
 
download the newest version as I just posted the fix

Also, surdanis says he has a newer version of his mod than what I have so you may want to download his and add it to the combo version.

Will do. Already have Surdanis's version - don't know how to add it though. (I think I better leave that to you.;) BTW, is a combined thread perhaps an idea? That way you'll see immediately when either of you guys has come up with something new - also it seems a bit unpractical to have 2 separate Holy War mod threads... Just a thought.)
 
Will do. Already have Surdanis's version - don't know how to add it though. (I think I better leave that to you.;) BTW, is a combined thread perhaps an idea? That way you'll see immediately when either of you guys has come up with something new - also it seems a bit unpractical to have 2 separate Holy War mod threads... Just a thought.)


surdanis should have the latests version of His mod combined with mine, so just go to his site if you haven't already. I'll change the download link of the combo to just go to his thread instead. Two threads are better at the moment cause we have different updates at different times and we would have to wait for the other guy every time we wanted to post an update.
 
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