[BTS] India UHVs are about luck

[Squirrelloid]

So after a couple of failed attempts, i decided to use the strategy guide, which is pretty explicit, to get a handle on precisely what was required. This was done on Monarch difficulty and i'm using BTS 3.03 as a base and the version of Rhye's that came with BTS. (I find it unlikely the India UHVs have been tweaked that much...). The guide i'm using is located here: http://wikirhye.wikidot.com/rfc-indian-strategy, and for the purposes of all attempts discussed in this thread was followed explicitly.

The following is the result of 8 attempts to achieve a historical victory where i gave up when doing so became impossible. I followed the guide precisely in all of them.

A full 4 of them i quit when the computer (usually an "independent") founded Judaism 4 turns before i was going to, despite teching straight for it. (Masonry/Polytheism/Monotheism at 10/14/15 turns - always using tiles that provide commerce when able).

One of them I gave up when, just after founding Judaism, the computer founded Hinduism. (Done by Shushan, an Independent).

Two of them I gave up when the Greeks built the Oracle, both times before i could finish researching monarchy. Note that building the oracle is essential to winning a historical victory because its the only way to conceivably get Divine Right first.

The last i gave up after Christianity was discovered by the Romans (having had the Greeks grab the oracle again).

Now, the guide makes it sound like (A) The Greeks only beeline for the Oracle rarely (claimed frequency is ~1/20) - yet they did in every game i let progress that far. (B) You are assured of getting Judaism if you beeline for it. (C) Hinduism isn't really being contested by anyone.

Part of it may be that BTS values wonder-building differently now. If that's the case, the Indian UHVs need serious reconsideration as they are impossible if the Greeks will always grab the Oracle. But the inability to found Judaism despite doing everything possible to beeline for it doesn't strike me as something BTS would have changed - especially since its an Independent who's doing it. This makes the historical victory exceptionally luck-dependent, which isn't much fun to play. (Computer randomly generated early judaism again, guess i better start over and replay those 40 turns ).

One other thing i've noticed is that the computer never offers anything resembling a fair trade for techs. And most of the computers start with far more tech than you'll have researched by the time they've appeared. Trading techs at half value hardly seems fair, but that seems to be the best you can get. Some reading on this forum suggests this might be a BTS change, although the computer isn't half so annoying about trading in normal games.

 

[Corm]

Yup its luck. Same as Ethiopia, Babylon and a few others. I have a save someplace around this forum with all 5 founded that you could try? Do a search on my posts and you should find it if you want to try it.

 

[simakis]

Not Babylon Corm, its fairly easy but i agree about India and Ethiopia. India though is doable 90% chance if you get Judaism first then you will probably make it. A lot of Civs need luck though.

 

[Squirrelloid]

Two more attempts at India.

First abandoned when a civ got Judaism the turn before i would have. This game also featured the first time i got a tech when i popped a hut in Rhye's - totally useless of course. Yay fishing? As India?

Second abandoned when an Independent popped a hut with a scout and (presumably) got Monotheism from it, as they founded Judaism the next turn. Stupid Independent AIs stealing my huts! (it was the one in Anatolia). I had 9 turns to go on Monotheism.

Seriously, the rate at which Independents acquire Monotheism needs to be reduced, because 6/10 attempts thus far have had them beat me to it - and there was *nothing* i could do. (Really, the early game is mostly hit enter for India, with a little exploring to the North and West. This is *not* exciting gameplay. And failing for reasons that you can't effect is mindnumbingly stupid. If i wanted to play roulette, I'd go to a casino so when I won I'd actually get something worthwhile. I play a strategy game because i want my decisions to actually matter).

 

[simakis]

Squirrelloid, its the the indipendents that you have to beat for Monotheism if you dont it will be found in Jerusalem.

 

[Squirrelloid]

Squirrelloid, its the the indipendents that you have to beat for Monotheism if you dont it will be found in Jerusalem.

I realize that. The point being its *impossible* for me to research it any faster. Jerusalem should have a set time at which they get it, not randomly determined like it seems to be, because then that could be set so that it would always be possible to get Judaism first. (Presumably only if you race straight for it).

Having also had Shushan acquire Hinduism while I was sprinting Judaism, there's something really strange going on with Independents. Their research powers seriously need toning down.

 

[onedreamer]

Squirelloid I reported about India UHV in this thread http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=241864
and there is another thread about it (previous to mine) here
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=239442

Apparently people claim that they can win and that they even followed the wiki guide.

First off, I don't think it's a matter of luck to win. Because when you try 10 times and loose every time, well that's not tough luck, it's just impossibility to win. Sure maybe once on 100 you can win ? If there are some sort of odd events. But that's not luck, that's beyond luck.

I would really like to know how can people claim that the wiki guide is consistent with BtS, since I believe it's totally outdated and it can't work. That guide was written when the AI was in vanilla and there were less scripts from Rhye. I notice that now the AI tries to actually achieve its UHV. So Greece will try to build the Oracle 20/20 , not 1/20. It will fail only if another civ is faster, but not because Greece didn't try it hard (as hard as the AI can, of course). According to the guide you should build a settler at pop 2. I found that if I do this, I won't be able to research techs in time, because of too low commerce. And anyways, it takes too long to build the settler, and after that you should build temples, but you got no production, no food, no pop to whip, so it really puzzles me how can people claim that they get a settler and a GP before the Oracle is built and research all techs in time. These are a string of goals that all require extreme luck to be completed, making the string almost impossible to happen (actually, for what I have experienced, totally impossible in practice). I decided to not follow the guide about the settler at pop 2 and managed to get the first 3 religions, but I failed the Oracle and failed Christianity. I decided to continue anyways, and see how would I do with the pop goal, and failed that too. Because I was too backwards because I had researched techs solely for the UHV purpouse but that are utterly useless for land development. Because Persia can dispose of Indian 3 warriors whenever it wants, and it will do it. Because plague is a plague. There are so many different factors in the UHV that if you focus to beat one you will loose the other. The only thing I'm sure about is that the wiki guide currently does not work. But my only progress from that was discovering that for some sort of odd astrological reason it is more probable to beat the AI to Judaism if you first research Polytheism and then Masonry (unlike the guide), so I would like to read a guide that shows how the UHV can really be achieved currently.

 

[Corm]

Not Babylon Corm, its fairly easy but i agree about India and Ethiopia. India though is doable 90% chance if you get Judaism first then you will probably make it. A lot of Civs need luck though.

Heh well this thread isnt about Babylon but I cant let this one go so sorry folks for an OT post but Babylon is luck. Try playing them now with the latest patches in BtS and report back your findings in the thread discussing it. Most of the other folk here could only do it on average one out of 4 or 5 attempts. It only takes ten mins or so so its not a big deal but it is 100% down to luck.

 

[Corm]

I would really like to know how can people claim that the wiki guide is consistent with BtS, since I believe it's totally outdated and it can't work. That guide was written when the AI was in vanilla and there were less scripts from Rhye. I notice that now the AI tries to actually achieve its UHV. So Greece will try to build the Oracle 20/20 , not 1/20. It will fail only if another civ is faster, but not because Greece didn't try it hard (as hard as the AI can, of course). According to the guide you should build a settler at pop 2. I found that if I do this, I won't be able to research techs in time, because of too low commerce. And anyways, it takes too long to build the settler, and after that you should build temples, but you got no production, no food, no pop to whip, so it really puzzles me how can people claim that they get a settler and a GP before the Oracle is built and research all techs in time. These are a string of goals that all require extreme luck to be completed, making the string almost impossible to happen (actually, for what I have experienced, totally impossible in practice). I decided to not follow the guide about the settler at pop 2 and managed to get the first 3 religions, but I failed the Oracle and failed Christianity. I decided to continue anyways, and see how would I do with the pop goal, and failed that too. Because I was too backwards because I had researched techs solely for the UHV purpouse but that are utterly useless for land development. Because Persia can dispose of Indian 3 warriors whenever it wants, and it will do it. Because plague is a plague. There are so many different factors in the UHV that if you focus to beat one you will loose the other. The only thing I'm sure about is that the wiki guide currently does not work. But my only progress from that was discovering that for some sort of odd astrological reason it is more probable to beat the AI to Judaism if you first research Polytheism and then Masonry (unlike the guide), so I would like to read a guide that shows how the UHV can really be achieved currently.

Well I completed it using the Wiki guide with a few trimmings of my own under BtS as I posted about in the other threads. I even uploaded my 5 religions founded save as proof that the "hard" part can be done.

I dont disagree that its random and needs changed but the fact is it can and does work. Just not all the time. Or in other words requires extremely good luck. Also as stated in one of the other threads by its possible to pop out 3 GP's before Arabia spawns by using the Temple of Artemis which will allow you to hit Christianity and Islam without needing the Oracle.

Bottom line though as it does require luck with random events there is no point making any other guide of any sort because it just wont help if you still require restarting every 4 out of 5 games or whatever.

Personally and I reckon a few of you would agree here a great deal of the UHV's need revisited and possibly changed.

 

[onedreamer]

All I have read from previous threads were:

1- I have founded 5 religions (unfinished game)
1b- I founded 5 religions but failed the pop goal
2- I got to 2 turns of pop goal but plague hit me and I lost

To me that's the same result as saying I got to 2 turns of Monotheism when Judaism was founded in Jerusalem.
Also, following the wiki guide is a 100% loss. You can't seriously speak of restarting 4 times on 5, because I've tried more than 10 times without luck.

 

[Corm]

Well if you have made up your mind then thats fine im not arguing with you its pointless on the internet as im sure you know. Each of us have very different experiences of Rhyes and fall so its to be expected I can only tell you what I have experienced and you can take it or leave it. Sorry you don't believe it man but like I said im not going to argue.

 

[Squirrelloid]

So, i managed to win a historical victory as India. I founded my capitol at Takashila (or whatever its called).

Built warrior/warrior/worker/stonehenge/buddhist temple/oracle/temple of artemis in that order, with Oracle delayed by some temple of artemis as long as i thought i could get away with (turned out to be all of it - i managed to oracle Theology). Not having to research bronze working (because of stonehenge) is a huge plus, and Takashila as your capitol also gives you some early research advantage (more good river adjacent squares). Would eventually add Great Library, Leaning Tower, and Apostolic Palace to that. (I could have had Sistine Chapel, but i needed the elephants).

Researched the obvious plus agriculture between Priesthood and writing. (Full tech path: poly/masonry/mono/meditation/priesthood/agriculture/writing/monarchy/theology (oracle)/stuff...(wait for GP and near second one).../Divine Right).

Starting around 850 I started assembling my elephant armada to crush khmer and china, and turned off research to fund trading for health resources. (The greeks unfortunately collapsed, so i had to do most of my trading with Persia, who had most of the goods i had to offer). Was going Vassalage/Theocracy for xp. Walked through Khmer with one loss (more promoted elephants, and they had few elephants and otherwise archers). Took the southernmost Chinese city (at size 10) with little enough time remaining that it would stay in revolt past 1200 (so it wouldn't lose size again). Surprisingly, my closest competitor for population size was Japan, but the only thing i could do about that was grab cities.

I basically had 3 cities at home, because there came a point where it wasn't worth making any more settlers (+1 i culture stole from the Persians, but it was tiny), but they all hit size 11-12 by 1200.

Of course, right now the game is frozen with "Asoka wins a Historical Victory" and "Waiting for other players". I might have to replay the last turn - eh.

And wow, the computer really extorts you on tech trades. Trading at least double or triple research points for what you're getting is crazy - and that's if they like you. At the end I was about even in techs with Persia (and would have been with Rome/Carthage/Greece if they'd lasted that long - they all civil warred), ahead of Egypt last i saw them (i think they also died), behind China slightly (up Paper and something else on me), marginally behind Arabia, and ahead of France (barely), and Ethiopia (by a lot). Didn't see anyone else from Europe.

Edit: Tried running the last turn again and it froze. Not sure what's wrong, out of time tonight to play with it. I'll try again and *make peace* with china, see if that changes anything.

 

[Corm]

The AI makes Del Boy look honest when it comes to tech trades. The only AI that seems to trade for decent prices is Mali if your on good terms with him.

Congratz on doing it btw. I think India is a great Civ to play on with after hitting the UHV victory.

 

[NitroJay]

Well, I haven't been here in a while... I took a long break from civ since, believe it or not, I was told it was actually putting strain on my relationship with my girlfriend... Yeah, I know...! So I recently got my priorities straightened out and decided to get a copy of BTS... Anyway, I was getting the RFC update when I came across this thread...

India is one of my favorite civs to play... Maybe it's all the simcity I used to play back in the day, but the fast workers make me happy inside...

Well, as it just so happens, I JUST FINISHED a historical victory for India. (If you call getting the "you won a historical victory" message and then the game freezing up a victory - hense me being here looking for an update...)

Anyway, I used my old way of doing things, found here:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=4853215&postcount=66

A few changes aside, I feel it still pretty much works... It was about my 4th or 5th attempt to win the UHV when I finally finished with a victory. The two main hurdles for me are 1.) getting Judaism first and 2.) getting Oracle first.

Getting Judaism first IS pure luck of the draw. You can go straight for it and still lose... Just restart and try again... If you try to squeeze something else in there, it won't happen... I actually went Priesthood before Meditation to get a jump on the Oracle... One of my swear-words-at-the-screen restarts that I saw up above, was when an independant gets to Hinudism first. Never seen that before, except this once, so I figured it was a fluke...

Anyway, I skipped the 2 starting warriors also in favor of a rush to stonehenge. Keep the people of Delhi working the hammers and Stonehenge goes up in no time. I feel I got better deals with the Carthagians in the game... I researched writing myself, traded for Alphabet... Once I had alphabet everyone wanted to get in on my Oracle granted Theocracy... Actually was able to trade for Monarchy! Once I was even in the tech race, I just expanded and sat back and pumped out my great people. 2 prohets later, I got Divine Right, actually - it was close - The Viking's had already spawned, but I made 5 religions none the less...

It IS possible. It is NOT hisorical. LUCK is a huge part, but with the right strategies, you can turn the 1 in 100 chance to 1 in 5.

 

[onedreamer]

Just wanted to nitpick that I wrote about the impossibility to win if you follow the wiki guide. Thanks for posting your 2 winning summaries, I'll try them out.

 

[Rhye]

if the wiki guide is outdated, can anyone update it?

 

[Barak]

As I have stated before, when I go for Judaism, the independants ALWAYS found hinduism before I can get it.

Rhye, is this still possible?