BtS is coming out: Let's discuss strategy for some of the new leaders

[futurehermit]

Walls in 3 cities, eh? No more building the GW for me

 

[Mehmed II]

I thought that holkan needs only hunting, because it doesn't need copper or anything.

 

[UncleJJ]

It will be a completely different game in my opinion, and it will feel very different from Warlords. It is hard to talk about strategies until we know how things work and how the tech tree is changed. There could be some suprises there and I hope there is.

The espionage system alone will make it seem different. How do people envisage using that? If the courthouse is so central to an espionage based game allowing spies to be run then maybe there'll be even more reason to do an oracle => Code of Laws to get a head start with spies (of course we don't really know if that is true yet because that information was not official )

 

[frob2900]

I thought that holkan needs only hunting, because it doesn't need copper or anything.

It replaces spearman. That's how the UU mechanic works. I can't understand the confusion with this issue. It's one of the most simple mechanics in the entire game.

Just think of how the Jaguar works w.r.t. Iron Working. That's how the Holkan ought to work w.r.t. Bronze Working. You don't need the metal resource but you need the tech.

 

[Charou]

I thought that holkan needs only hunting, because it doesn't need copper or anything.

I think you are right
Spearmen don´t need bronze working per se, but copper or iron.
At least that´s the way it is written in the manual.

edit.
go and see
http://www.civfanatics.com/civ4/info/units/

Is it written differently in the code ??

 

[cabert]

It replaces spearman. That's how the UU mechanic works. I can't understand the confusion with this issue. It's one of the most simple mechanics in the entire game.

exactly, that's why you need the tech that unlocks spearmen, which is... hunting.
I guess we'll see this after BtS is out.

Just think of how the Jaguar works w.r.t. Iron Working. That's how the Holkan ought to work w.r.t. Bronze Working. You don't need the metal resource but you need the tech.

just think of how the camel archer works, it requires guilds and no iron or horse.
I'm pretty confident you can build camel archers without knowing ironworking. I would need to test it though, because it never happened to me.

Next up, Mayans. I'm really looking forward to these guys. Their starting techs (mysticism/mining) kind of make me scratch my head, but let's see what they've got! Financial-expansive. Ahhh...Vicki's old traits. I'm really looking forward to this combo. Some super-nice synergy with pottery. Unfortunately, no ag, no wheel, no fishing as starting techs Plus the starting techs don't lead you toward pottery tbh. Mysticism makes one think of medit/poly to start. Mining makes one think bw. The uu is a spearman that can be built without copper/iron. That makes me think hunting asap for a quick rush. Where is ag/wheel/fishing in all this? That's my only concern. I see a real lack of synergy. I guess in the end I'm thinking you have some options: close neighbour? hunting first and mass holcan spearmen. no close neighbour? go for a religion or go bw and chop-expand your empire. floodplains? beeline ag-wheel-pottery. The ub is an extra- coliseum. So I'm thinking construction could be a nice time to strike if you don't have a close neighbour for a spear-rush.

IMHO financial + starting with mysticism is like someone shouting "cultural, cultural, who wants my cultural win?" + expansive will make up for part of the late game healthiness problems you have when running for culture . this + the cheap granaries and workers make it quite obvious to me.
And it's certainly easier to build up an empire large enough to go for cultural if you can just take it from your neighbour using bronzefree spears.

 

[frob2900]

I think you are right
Spearmen don´t need bronze working per se, but copper or iron.
At least that´s the way it is written in the manual.

Ha! Yes you are indeed right. Wow, I always, always thought spearmen needed bronzeworking.

Now wheres my hat, because I have some hat-eating to do

Really, though, this is somewhat interesting. Does this have implications for the game in other ways than the Holkan? I mean, supposing one has hunting, how does one get bronze for spears without bronzeworking? Trading? Not that early, and Bronzeworking is cheap anyway...

 

[madscientist]

OK, So if I have hunting, no bronzeworking and I use a chariot rush to take my neighbors capital who has a copper mine in his capital (I know it is unlikely but for arguments sake) I can then produce spearmen without researching BW?

 

[frob2900]

OK, So if I have hunting, no bronzeworking and I use a chariot rush to take my neighbors capital who has a copper mine in his capital (I know it is unlikely but for arguments sake) I can then produce spearmen without researching BW?

I don't imagine so. Because AFAIK when you capture a tile improvement you need the unlocking tech to get the resource (e.g. if you capture dye plantations before calendar you won't get the dye resource)

 

[cabert]

OK, So if I have hunting, no bronzeworking and I use a chariot rush to take my neighbors capital who has a copper mine in his capital (I know it is unlikely but for arguments sake) I can then produce spearmen without researching BW?

the copper mine becomes a regular mine in your hands

 

[Lidjis]

At last! The thread I have been waiting for.

While Futurehermit put forward many of my ideas about the new leaders, he left a few out.

Eheopia- My strat with Zara would be to slap up theaters and coloseums and run the cultural slider high while I whipped and drafted Oromo warriors. Gunpowder is an easy slingshot from liberalism, and with cavs being moved back the Oromo warrior will be prime late-medieval conquering material.

Khmer- Creative/ expansive is a strong combo, encouraging early growth and lots of specialists. My strategy with the khmer would be to farm over everything, running the cultural slider high to increase happy, while at the same time taking advantage of huge health from expansive, and extra growth from my barays. With next to no cottages, I could run the slider very high without losing a lot of money, while generating plenty of great scientists from my libraries. The biggest problem I would face is whether to run slavery (i'd have really high happy and cheap granaries encouraging whipping) or Caste System (because I'd have a huge population to run specialists with. The UU is a bit lackluster, but with the buff to horse archers in BTS, Ballista elephants could be very helpful in protecting groups of now much more vulnerable cats.

Holy Roman empire- His trait combo made me blanch the first time I saw it, but I think he will be a decent leader. My strat with him would be to REX early, using quickly built cities and protectives GW advantage to grab that wonder, then keep REXing while safe from barbarians. The AI in BTS will start with less advantages, so imperialistic will hopefully let you get out more than your share of decent cities. After that, I would fight wars in a style that i;ve started to like, that is, on emperor, declaring then sitting back and waiting for the AI to attack me. I crush them within my borders, while protective keeps my cities safe and GW/imperialistic generates masses of great generals. After their big stacks are depleted, then I strike back with my highly promoted units. I like charlemagne because his traits will require you to be very pro-active about utilizing them, and hopefully he will benefit from the various advantages that protective is getting in BTS.

Native Americans- I'd use these guys in my first MP game. Use protective to grab the great wall, then sit back and weather the storm, using monument enhanced protective archers to make my cities impregnable, and butchering the common axe/sword stacks other players sent against me with my UU. Hell, I don't need metals for defense either, so while pillaging is still a problem, I don't need to invest a lot in protecting my metals.

 

[madscientist]

I don't imagine so. Because AFAIK when you capture a tile improvement you need the unlocking tech to get the resource (e.g. if you capture dye plantations before calendar you won't get the dye resource)

I believe I have actually captured dye palntations without calander before and got the benefits.

 

[Charou]

Ha! Yes you are indeed right. Wow, I always, always thought spearmen needed bronzeworking.

Now wheres my hat, because I have some hat-eating to do

Really, though, this is somewhat interesting. Does this have implications for the game in other ways than the Holkan? I mean, supposing one has hunting, how does one get bronze for spears without bronzeworking? Trading? Not that early, and Bronzeworking is cheap anyway...

I would have been with you on this one a few minutes ago.
Interesting thought from Mehmed, made me think about it twice.


The consequences are not earthbreaking though.
Bronze working is needed early if you want to rush with Holkans.
35 means you need slavery badly.
You´ll have 1 or 2 pre-Bronze Holkans, at best.

Of course, you can still benefit from the no copper requirement by not having to settle the usual bronze city.

 

[cabert]

I believe I have actually captured dye palntations without calander before and got the benefits.

the difference lies in the fact that you can see the dye before having calendar, but you can't see the copper before having BW.

 

[frob2900]

the difference lies in the fact that you can see the dye before having calendar, but you can't see the copper before having BW.

Are you sure that you get calendar happines resources when you capture plantations even without calendar. I don't mean the tile commerce bonus, but the actual resource for +1 happiness?

I'm pretty sure scrolling over a captured plantation pre-calendar you'll see a "Requires: calendar" text.

 

[cabert]

Are you sure that you get calendar happines resources when you capture plantations even without calendar. I don't mean the tile commerce bonus, but the actual resource for +1 happiness?

I'm pretty sure scrolling over a captured plantation pre-calendar you'll see a "Requires: calendar" text.

I have the vague memory of a SG where they culture flipped a tile containing an oil well before having combustion. I think (don't sue me if it's wrong) they had the oil and could build the related units.

 

[Charou]

I'm pretty sure scrolling over a captured plantation pre-calendar you'll see a "Requires: calendar" text.

Meaning the improvement requires the tech,
But you can enjoy the benefits from the ressource if the plantation is up and running,
courtesy of the previous owner of the city u captured

edit.
We are kinda loosing focus guys.
back to the shiny new UUs.

 

[frob2900]

Meaning the improvement requires the tech,
But you can enjoy the benefits from the ressource if the plantation is up and running,
courtesy of the previous owner of the city u captured

Youre 100% sure?

[EDIT] Yeah, back to UUs.

Ive got two words: "Oromo draft"

Oromo draft! Yeah! Oromo draft! Drill One Two! Yeah! Immune to first strikes! Yeah!

Come on, sing along!

 

[madscientist]

Cabert OK i get the answer now. Since I cannot see copper I cannot know the AI has it, unless they mines a grassland tile which has to be copper or iron. As far as plantation, yes I believe I got the happiness bonus although the game was in the Vanilla days. Similarly, I believe I had oil without combustion or wells because I had inadvertantly settled a city on an oil location (again vanilla days). I guess if you see it you can use it, but you cannot build the improvement for it.

 

[Charou]

Youre 100% sure?

.... euhhh .... well .....
stop staring at me.

Not 100% sure, if you keep asking.
Just a memory, but the mind tends to alter facts to make them suit your wishes.
haha

Testing is needed if you want certitude .
Or a second expertise, to back up my statement. Anyone ?