BtS is coming out: Let's discuss strategy for some of the new leaders

[madscientist]

Ehtipopians and native americans first. I want to see how long those UB last so I know how to deal with them when playing against them. Sitting Bulls UU seams pretty good also, gonna run a long defnsive game for a late cultural vistory, that way I see/explore all the new features (they are upping the late game).

 

[r_rolo1]

Cabert OK i get the answer now. Since I cannot see copper I cannot know the AI has it, unless they mines a grassland tile which has to be copper or iron.

Not exactly true. Cooper and iron give extra to a mine, regardless of where it is. If you see a 4 1 grassland hill mine you know that there's got to be a metal there...

On topic, I like the Dutch aproach ,but first I'll try to settler spam with D. João II . If the AI don't get so many bonuses as in warlords, maybe is feasible to get a decent SE out of the Portuguese just by sheer city number ( needs testing .... )

 

[Charou]

Ehtipopians and native americans first. I want to see how long those UB last so I know how to deal with them when playing against them. Sitting Bulls UU seams pretty good also, gonna run a long defnsive game for a late cultural vistory, that way I see/explore all the new features (they are upping the late game).

Exactly, Not going military for my first game will allow me to know if espionnage ( for instance ) is efficient enough to keep pace with the AI without early warring.

BTW, I think protective is going to be the next best thing !!

 

[Dnomal]

My first game will be with Justinian and i see it going like this:

Found an early religion, (or many early religions)

Early settlers secure strategic positions, and resources, i then back-settle into closer land. When that's done I'll start a wonder-building program, and run a SE economy, and grwo Constantinople to size 12 by 0 A.D, then get catas, switch to theocracy/vassalage and go on a conquering spree.

During war I get loads of GGs and settle them, so I have cities with military academies and/or instructors, so i have an efficent military (oh i also plan to rush temple of Zeus, so war is easier).

Continue conquests, with grenadiers (when i get them), and continue updating, with the UB keeping the people will be easy and reliatively cheap. Go for a domination victory.

That's my idea/thought for my first game...

I really wanna play as Pericles after that, and go for a cultural victory (never won one before), lots of GAs culture bombing...

Can't wait for BTS

(Although we really need an official release to tell us when it'll actually come out, since there are so many different dates and no one knows which ones are real *fingers croseed for 20th)

 

[futurehermit]

I am 100% sure you don't get the calendar bonus from a captured tile improvement until you have calendar. However, you CAN get the bonus if you TRADE for the resource and don't have calendar yet! I think this kinda makes sense. You don't know how to harvest it yourself, even if you inherit a plantation, you don't know how to run it, but if someone ships you a bunch of the harvested resource, you can distribute it to your citizens.

On topic:

I had a hunch that holcan spearmen would only require hunting, but frob was so adamant that I deferred to him

With spearmen only requiring hunting, my sense is that if you have a close enough neighbour you could defer other tech priorities and mass spears and go for a rush.

What I really see them doing, however, is serving as early barb defense allowing you to prioritize that great commerce city over that strategic resource city. On monarch+ if you don't take the strategic resource city first (or if you don't have your 2nd city built before 2000BC) then you will get a barb-onslaught that can be very difficult to manage with warriors alone. You either need to pump a number of warriors for fog-busting or you need to have axes/chariots to manage the barb invasion (or the GW of course).

With holcan spears available immediately with hunting (which you might even pop from a goody hut) then there is no need to go for copper/horses first. Simply nab that snaky river city or gold-pit city first and get your tech pumping prior to your military (assuming you don't have a neighbour right on your doorstep)

 

[frob2900]

What I really see them doing, however, is serving as early barb defense allowing you to prioritize that great commerce city over that strategic resource city. On monarch+ if you don't take the strategic resource city first (or if you don't have your 2nd city built before 2000BC) then you will get a barb-onslaught that can be very difficult to manage with warriors alone.

Holkan is still very vulnerable to barbarian axes. Even more so than archers!

 

[AlessioCerci]

On monarch at least, theres some time between barb archers appearing and barb axes, not sure if it holds true on higher levels. So the holkan, can still give you reasonable cover, but as you say if an axe shows up when all you've got is holkans, you're in big trouble.

 

[MickeyD]

AlessioCerci- I remember reading somewhere that the barbarian types dpend on a threshold of civs knowing the tech that unlocks the unit. So, after so many civs learn BW, the axes start showing up.

 

[bselig]

Darius' one weakness is that he's the most hideous leader in the game.

Though that might be one more reason to pick him, so you don't have to run into him on the diplo screen

 

[Lance of Llanwy]

I think the Khmer are a nice darkhorse. Cre/Exp is a nice combo with an appealing plate of cheap buildings(Granaries and Libraries particularly) and I can see the UB being useful, as it effectively means your city tile is worth three food. 1 doesn't seem like much, but I'm sure it'll only help grow cities faster. I think it'll be especially helpful later on, where health becomes a major enemy of growth....and you're expansive. I think you'll be supporting the largest cities in the game by the Industrial age, and who can deny the early benefits of Creative? The UU is kinda meh, because horse units aren't exactly threatening defenders...

 

[InFlux5]

Justinian

I like the early-game possibilities here. Obsolete's threads have shown the viability of a "slow" start revolving around super-specialists. I'd start by grabbing a religion, then going for Fishing or, more likely, Agriculture. Agri opens up AH. Hopefully the horses are close, as I will probably keep a small empire and tech to Guilds ASAP.

Dutch

I won't be playing the Dutch very much, as I find their trait setup cheesy and inappropriate given the size of their empire historically.

But, obviously, cottage spam is going to be the goal here. I'm somebody who doesn't mind coastal starts to begin with; but if you do, the Dutch UB eases the pain somewhat.

Ethiopia

I think Zara will be the first leader I play as. I don't know if Ethiopia will be a "powerhouse" civ, but they sure look fun. I'm a big fan of beelining to Janissairies with the Ottomans. Here's another chance to play with a fun variant of the Musketman.

Creative is an under-rated trait IMO. Does it taper off sharply in the end-game? Yeah. But by that time you have reaped the benefit of a larger empire, period. Creative is like Stonehenge except twice as effective and it doesn't quit.

The Stele (Monument with a culture multiplier) is somewhat unimpressive; unless I decided to go for a cultural victory, which is a definite possibility with Zara. In fact, I see tons of possibilities here from culture to domination.

Charlemagne

While this guy seems to be a mish-mash of traits and assets that have little synergy, my jaw literally dropped when I saw the Landsknecht. This unit is an absolute monster, especially in multiplayer. +100% vs mounted and melee? If you've got Charlemagne near you, Muskets are going to be a big priority.

Pacal II

It looks to me like the Mayans are going to be a powerhouse civ. According to the sticky on the BtS forum, bronze isn't needed for a Holkan rush.

Unique Unit: Holkan (Spearman), immune to First Strike and can be built without copper or iron.

After a land-grab, you can settle back into cottaged cities and spam Ball Courts, a straight-up awesome UB. An empire with huge cities and super-charged commerce can pretty much take its pick of victory types.

Joao II

I've always had a love of far-flung colonies on islands across the globe. Many people hate water-based maps and coastal starts, but I really enjoy them. So it's these guys and the Ethiopians that I'm looking forward to most.

There's some uncertainty as to whether the Carrack can carry a Settler, though I suspect it can't. Thus its main use will be early over-seas conquest, either of AIs or barb cities. This means you need a thriving economy to support both an army and navy. Unfortunately Joao doesn't have traits the specifically aid in this, though the UB certainly does. Thing is, I don't know when the Customs House becomes available. Can anyone help me out?

Anyway, here's another case where I'd employ a "slow start" and grow my capital. When playing as an Imperialistic civ I tend to wait until size 4 or so to get a Settler going, so I can make full use of the hammer bonus. As for Expansive, I'm a pretty big fan of this trait. Granaries are possibly the most important building, and getting them up earlier is huge for Slavery purposes. All in all I think the Portuguese are set up to play out just like they did historically (unlike the Dutch.)

 

[sumit1207]

I believe Customs Houses are enabled at Economics.

EDIT: From the Info Center-
#
# Custom House [Harbor, Economics]: gain a boost to all foreign trade coming in from overseas.

 

[Fraulzar]

Sumerians: Worker for first build and research pottery if the initial fat cross is at all conducive to cottages. I'm very bullish on pottery as first research when starting techs allow: it's just too tempting to pass up. Start cottages and research according to available resources while seeking 2nd city site that will either utilize creative's capacity to hem in potential rivals or provide terrain for cottages (especially if capital was unsuitable.)

Next comes bronzeworking/animal husbandry and vultures/chariots if vulnerable foes are present or writing and cheap creative libraries if not. If early warmongering doesn't seem to be the best option for whatever reason, it will be time to work towards Code of Laws and rapid creative/ziggurat/Forbidden palace driven expansion. Cheap libraries and fast growing cottages should help Gilgamesh move through the required tech progression in a timely fashion.

If the new AI is markedly more aggressive I might sneak in masonry for cheap walls and consider the Great Wall if ample forests are present. From there will progress as circumstances dictate.

Very eager for next week to find out if its the nice combination of strength and flexibility for a powerful start that it appears to be on paper!

 

[Eddie81]

Does anyone know if existing civs will have their traits changed for balance issues when BTS comes out? I'm think of what happend with warlords, some civs did change.

 

[r_rolo1]

The only leader that will have his traits changed is Augustus Ceasar, that will be Imp/Ind . On the other hand, some traits will be nerfed, like Expansive

 

[futurehermit]

Holkan is still very vulnerable to barbarian axes. Even more so than archers!

yep, for sure, but it's the early warriors and archers that drive me crazy tbh. once axes show up i generally always have axes/chariots to handle them. it's that critical early period between the building of the 2nd and 3rd cities that is crucial for me. i find if i don't take a military resource with my 2nd city i risk getting overrun with barbs before i get the copper/horses hooked up in my 3rd city. this is especially troublesome with an inland start and no close neighbours to cut down on barb spawning.

then again, i've never been a great fog-buster. i do it sometimes, but sometimes i forget.

 

[CivCorpse]

Cabert OK i get the answer now. Since I cannot see copper I cannot know the AI has it, unless they mines a grassland tile which has to be copper or iron. As far as plantation, yes I believe I got the happiness bonus although the game was in the Vanilla days. Similarly, I believe I had oil without combustion or wells because I had inadvertantly settled a city on an oil location (again vanilla days). I guess if you see it you can use it, but you cannot build the improvement for it.

OK, I ran a test. You get the improved / from plantations even if you do not have calender. However, you do not get the /

 

[InFlux5]

Sumeria seems made for MP in my view. No other civ can have their cities as well-defended as quickly.

I also think Native Americans will shine in MP. Protective is more valuable in general against aggressive players, and Philosophical makes pillaging hurt a lot less.

 

[Leveler]

Charlemagne

While this guy seems to be a mish-mash of traits and assets that have little synergy, my jaw literally dropped when I saw the Landsknecht. This unit is an absolute monster, especially in multiplayer. +100% vs mounted and melee? If you've got Charlemagne near you, Muskets are going to be a big priority.

Don't forget crossbows. They are 20 hammers cheaper than muskets (80 hammers) and have same strength vs melee units and have 1 first strike.

 

[Chrispy]

Sumerians: Worker for first build and research pottery if the initial fat cross is at all conducive to cottages. I'm very bullish on pottery as first research when starting techs allow: it's just too tempting to pass up. Start cottages and research according to available resources while seeking 2nd city site that will either utilize creative's capacity to hem in potential rivals or provide terrain for cottages (especially if capital was unsuitable.)

Next comes bronzeworking/animal husbandry and vultures/chariots if vulnerable foes are present or writing and cheap creative libraries if not. If early warmongering doesn't seem to be the best option for whatever reason, it will be time to work towards Code of Laws and rapid creative/ziggurat/Forbidden palace driven expansion. Cheap libraries and fast growing cottages should help Gilgamesh move through the required tech progression in a timely fashion.

If the new AI is markedly more aggressive I might sneak in masonry for cheap walls and consider the Great Wall if ample forests are present. From there will progress as circumstances dictate.

Very eager for next week to find out if its the nice combination of strength and flexibility for a powerful start that it appears to be on paper!

With the news coming out of Australia (where BTS has been released) in the BTS forum, this can be changed:

...time to work towards Priesthood and rapid creative/ziggurat/Forbidden Palace expansion.

The Ziggurat has become a UB I never considered: it comes available a tech earlier than the building it replaces. With this news, does it make sense to bypass CoL as the Sumerians, instead teching toward Monarchy and Feudalism to continue the expansion and upgrade the city defense?