[BTS] MarnzMod

[PotatoSamurai]

Got an interesting idea just a second ago, partly inspired by your inclusion of tin and lead.

Jade, interestingly enough, was used as a metal for weapons because it's so hard. I can't remember which mod it was, but they made Stone to allow building Spearmen. Jade would make a cool combined luxury/strategic resource, kinda like Ivory.

Could help the 'Oh noes, no iron OR bronze!' problem I run into occasionally.

 

[Ionopachys]

The ones I think would be best to add:
1. Zoroastrianism. It was the official religion of the Persian Empire, which in vanilla doesn't have its own religion.
2. Shinto. Major Japanese religion, was the state religion of Japan during WWII.
3. Baha'i. Another good Persian religion, one of several syncretic religions.
4. Cao Dai. Since you have a Vietnamese civ, this Vietnamese syncretic religion would be a great addition.
5. Jainism. One of the three original sramanic religions, the other remaining one being Buddhism. It's a major religion in India.
6. Sikhism. An Indian syncretic religion. They're known for being fairly militaristic since they've had to deal with a lot of persecution.

Personally I think India should get as many religions as reasonably possible, since the Indians are such culture whores

I'm not too enthusiastic about adding pantheonic religions simply because they don't have the doctrinal unity that really makes them into unified religions. The Hellenic gods, for example, were given different names and worshiped by different means throughout Greek-speaking lands. In addition, people of one religious group (e.g. Greeks vs. Egyptians) did not distinguish between two different names for a single deity. Isis was the same goddess as Hera (or Demeter, Artemis, and others depending on the interpreter), Hermes was Thoth, etc.

The problem with most of those is that they are relatively new religions with little historical impact. Zoroastrianism was the first recorded monotheism, and it is likely that Judaism and Christianity would be unrecognizable without its influence. Shinto, as you said, was the state religion of Japan, and has been very influential in Japanese culture for ages. The others, though, have had little influence, and are not very recognizable.


While ancient pantheons were not organized churches as we understand them, they did have established priesthoods and exerted great influence on their nations, both politically and culturally. It's true that you can't realistically boil Egyptian paganism down to a neat little "*-ism", but it would be awfully neat for Ramses to build Egyptian style temples, or for Cæsar to build Hellenistic style temples. They did think their gods were more important than other people's gods, and while they might not have had an established dogma, they did think that patronizing the gods was essential for the well being of their peoples. Really, Hinduism isn't much more regularized than other extinct paganisms. There might be an "official" dogma taught to and by the Brahmins, but different the folks worship all sorts of gods, and "official" doctrine is that moral and religious practice is relative to caste. The truths taught to Brahmins are not necessarily fit for commoners. Priests should be non-violent, but princes are expected to revel in combat and slaughter.

The Egyptians were not as keen about syncretism as the Greeks and Romans. They might have been able to accept the universal archetype of the Mother, but they didn't necessarily believe that Zeus was Re. During Dynastic periods they were open to merging similar Egyptian gods from different locales, like Amun and Re, but the general ancient attitude was that different peoples had different gods. The Greeks and Romans were unique in deciding that everyone worshipped the same gods, but by different names.

 

[remex]

I'll upload it to rapidshare will take at least an hour. Will be in two parts.

Thx. Downloading done (it was a pain in the a**). Installed and now playing.

 

[PotatoSamurai]

The problem with most of those is that they are relatively new religions with little historical impact. Zoroastrianism was the first recorded monotheism, and it is likely that Judaism and Christianity would be unrecognizable without its influence. Shinto, as you said, was the state religion of Japan, and has been very influential in Japanese culture for ages. The others, though, have had little influence, and are not very recognizable.

Yeah, I listed those in the order that I would suggest they be added. Most of the syncretic religions aren't significant in our world, but isn't Civ more about gameplay than realism?

As for the pagan religions, there's some other problems. Number one is that every single civ in the game at one point had its own pagan traditions; why take some but omit others? Especially when any given civ could become dominant. It doesn't make sense for, say, Russia to become Hellenist (an inherently Greek religion) just because they're dominating in tech. I guess you could circumvent this by making the first civ to research a certain tech automatically found their specific pagan tradition, but that would mean that EVERY civ would have to have specific buildings, etc.

Another problem (that my religion professor explained to me ) is that the pagan religions are very localized. It's a matter of "our god isn't your god." Kinda like early Judaism, admittedly. It doesn't make sense for a non-Greek to worship Zeus or whatnot, even though the non-Greeks might recognize his existence (see: Henotheism, Monolatrism). I suppose you could boil down the difference between the pagan and modern religions as all pagan traditions being roughly equal in truth and value, but the modern religions as each claiming a monopoly on truth and value. I'm sure you've never heard of a Hellenist missionary

 

[Ionopachys]

But your own argument works against you. Why should Alexander or Hatshepsut be followers of Jainism? As you said, Civ is about gameplay, not realism. Realistically you can't have a separate religion for every civilization, so if you're going to add religions they should be based on recognizability or historical significance. Paganisms weren't universalist, at least until the Greeks, but it makes as much sense to have Montezuma worshipping Amun-Re as Vishna. For that matter, having sophisticated cultures lacking real gods until someone "discovers" a religion is incredibly unrealistic. If we are going to have Austrians evolving right next to Egyptians and neither have real native religious beliefs at first, then I see no reason why the Hapsburg might not be convinced of the veracity of the Ennead. Besides, leaders have religious preferences, so if Austria discovers a spiritual tech, they might found and convert to Christianity.

I guess what it comes down to is subjective personal taste. Like I said, my motivation is to have Roman or Greek cities with Hellenistic style temples instead of Hindu. Given the nature of the game, I can't see how you can argue against any religion based on "real-world" logic, so we might as well choose them based on popularity. Besides, others have already made Egyptian, Greek, and Mesopotamian style temples. It would be less work to incorporate them than new religions.

 

[Lachlan]

Re Marnz ! Now i have Core2Duo E6850 3Ghz + 4 Go DDR2 800 mhz + Ge Force 8800 GTS 640 Mo, a normal "huge" Earth run perfectly well on my new PC tower...

Good job !

I suggest that Corporations are also earlier than industrial because :

- East India Company (for Indian spices and Indian wood)
Idea : + 5 gold for each Spice ressource exploited in the World
Expires in 1850

- Spanish Company (for mines of gold, silver, gems)
Idea : + 10 gold for each gold, silver, gems exploited in the player empire
BUT : +5/+15 inflation, historically Spanish Empire has democratized luxuries, as result : 1550 -> richest nation of the World, 1950 -> modest european nation
Expires in 1830

- Templars Knights (early banking system)
Idea : can create a Templar Bank : 15 % gold produced by a city, with the same state religion that Templars HQ, is derivated to the player who control Templars HQ
Expire : No
Special : Can be removed by spies (mission called inquisition)...

Can you add Mahmoud Amhadinejad the Persian and Phillipe Petain the French ?

Can you also add a few religions ? Because if the futures Earth Maps for your mod are finished, i would preplace Civs starts and Religions...

Good Job really !

 

[Hyronymus]

This mod really balances the techs well, I like that. Sadly I've ran into a couple of memory allocation errors with this mod. Without this mod they don't appear, this is actually the first time I ran into these errors! In general, turns on large maps do process quicker though.

 

[PotatoSamurai]

Like I said, my motivation is to have Roman or Greek cities with Hellenistic style temples instead of Hindu.

I've seen another mod that used 'pagan temples' before a religion was founded/spread to that city. If we can have distinctive units for each civ, a cool pagan building would be cool too.

Honestly, if we included a few of the pagan religions (esp Hellenism and Egyptian) I wouldn't complain

Why should Alexander or Hatshepsut be followers of Jainism?

I don't see why they couldn't or wouldn't be converted. Jainism is a soteriologically-based religion like Christianity, Buddhism, Islam, etc., as opposed to orthopraxic religions like the pagan traditions. They have a motivation to convert people.

I guess the line is difficult to draw. Judaism and Hinduism are tied to a specific ethnic/cultural group, yet they've so impacted history it'd be foolish to leave them out. Once you add one, it's difficult to explain why you'd leave others out. I hope we can at least focus on adding first the religions which have remaining populations of faithful.

 

[bmarnz]

Ooooh... Lively debate.

I'll be taking the path of least resistance though and start with religions that already have existing artwork as I only have basic art skills.

@Tyranny12
I might be able to give new cities a temporary happy boost.

@Potato Samurai
I actually hade jade (and then some) as a resource in my personal Warlords mod. I cut some of the resources for this mod because the map scripts couldn't squeeze them all in. Now I probably have room for a few more, but I should first address the happy balance. Right now the citizens of MarnzWorld are way too:
.

@Hyronymus
Glad you like the mod.
I've yet to run into MAF with my mod. Could depend on the system.

@Lachlan
Someone else suggested early corps to me. I can't recall if it was in this thread or one of my corp threads. I'll try to keep it in mind to consider for later updates.

The more leaders the merrier.

More religions on the menu.


On a related issue, after much , I got my religion limiter working tonight. Now I'm trying to implement it as a selectable game option. Having a little trouble with that part though.

As far as maps go, this a 34 civ earth map that works with my mod. It just needs to have the extra resources added to it.

earth map by marx&engle - thread

 

[tyranny12]

@Tyranny12
I might be able to give new cities a temporary happy boost.

Sweet - that would keep the tactic. An effective 'we don't have our nice things' penalty.

@Lachlan
Someone else suggested early corps to me. I can't recall if it was in this thread or one of my corp threads. I'll try to keep it in mind to consider for later updates.

One problem in earlier corps... all those corps sort of went away in present day. But we don't have a method of transitioning them or an fair way of eliminating them. And introducing a gold generating corp that early could hurt later corp spread.

If I were to implement the Spanish Company or something like that, I would consider a sort of unique building.... wait! Example below, using the East India Company.

You have to build a World Wonder, cheaper than most. The East India Headquarters. Building the East India Headquarters allows you to build East India Factors (Regional Offices.) You can only build a limited amount of these (can you set 'National Wonder: 5 left?.) Both the HQ and the Factors have an effect based on the company.

The only thing I can't figure out is how to implement foreign offices...

Art skills... recruit? The best way to keep this thing going is to have a team making you keep it up.

 

[tyranny12]

It looks like we will be adding some new religions...

But for the many, many that we don't add, that were early, is it possible to tie them into the early techs? Like, if you follow animism, your cap city gains +3 culture a turn and the flavor text says something about the different civs early religions? Helps prevent the overboardness of unlimited religion, and the potential happy benefit of having 8 religions in a city with free religion.

 

[PotatoSamurai]

It looks like we will be adding some new religions...

But for the many, many that we don't add, that were early, is it possible to tie them into the early techs? Like, if you follow animism, your cap city gains +3 culture a turn and the flavor text says something about the different civs early religions? Helps prevent the overboardness of unlimited religion, and the potential happy benefit of having 8 religions in a city with free religion.

Second.

 

[Hyronymus]

One thing I forgot to mention is that loading this mod takes ages. It's worth waiting for but it does test my patience .

 

[Lachlan]

Sweet - that would keep the tactic. An effective 'we don't have our nice things' penalty.



One problem in earlier corps... all those corps sort of went away in present day. But we don't have a method of transitioning them or an fair way of eliminating them. And introducing a gold generating corp that early could hurt later corp spread.

If I were to implement the Spanish Company or something like that, I would consider a sort of unique building.... wait! Example below, using the East India Company.

You have to build a World Wonder, cheaper than most. The East India Headquarters. Building the East India Headquarters allows you to build East India Factors (Regional Offices.) You can only build a limited amount of these (can you set 'National Wonder: 5 left?.) Both the HQ and the Factors have an effect based on the company.

The only thing I can't figure out is how to implement foreign offices...

Art skills... recruit? The best way to keep this thing going is to have a team making you keep it up.

I second that : why not a simple wonder called : "Templars Banks", "Spain's Gold", "East India Company" who expire one day ?

It take only 30 seconds for me to load

Off-topic : Sim City Societes is fun but planted once, retry tommorow...
Prefer finish my day with Marnz Mod 1.7c

 

[bmarnz]

one more unit to double check

English Light Tank also shows as red blob for me

I double checked all the units you mentioned and they work on my computer. You won't easily find all the art files as some are hidden in th PAK files.

@Tyranny12 and Lachlan
I think Firaxis tried to cover these early corps by adding generic Trading Company national wonder. An added early corps would have to be a wonder as there is currently no way to obsolete a corp. Domestic branches can be limited the same way I limited some military buildings. (can build one building for every x buildings you have) Can't build foreign branches but domestic branches could enable not-so-great merchants that can do similar trade missions as the great merchant.


About the civ religion limit, I won't be able to make it a game option unless I learn to compile a custom dll. which leaves three options:
a) no limit
b) always on limit
c) limit only with religious victory selected

Any thoughts?

 

[Lachlan]

i suggest limit to two holy cities max per civ and one religion max for each city...

after i don't know how handle it...



But, should be rework bonii of Free Religion Civic

 

[PotatoSamurai]

i suggest limit to two holy cities max per civ and one religion max for each city...

Uhm, does anyone really want that?!

 

[Ionopachys]

About the civ religion limit, I won't be able to make it a game option unless I learn to compile a custom dll. which leaves three options:
a) no limit
b) always on limit
c) limit only with religious victory selected

Any thoughts?

In that case I repeat my request for SD's system. The way I see it, it doesn't really add dead end technologies, it simply separates religions to make them optional. I actually prefer this to a forced limit, since it gives the player more freedom. I guess I'm in the minority, but I can't really understand why there is so much resistance to this system. It doesn't change the way religions are founded, it only gives you the choice of spending an extra turn or two to found them. Since founding a religion gives a civilization a boost, it might actually make sense to make it cost a tiny bit.

Please implement this system!

 

[bmarnz]

In that case I repeat my request for SD's system. The way I see it, it doesn't really add dead end technologies, it simply separates religions to make them optional. I actually prefer this to a forced limit, since it gives the player more freedom. I guess I'm in the minority, but I can't really understand why there is so much resistance to this system. It doesn't change the way religions are founded, it only gives you the choice of spending an extra turn or two to found them. Since founding a religion gives a civilization a boost, it might actually make sense to make it cost a tiny bit.

Please implement this system!

Out of curiosity, what do you consider a good situation not to found a religion when given a chance?

 

[PotatoSamurai]

Out of curiosity, what do you consider a good situation not to found a religion when given a chance?

I really can't think of any.
Warmongers would use the happiness to curtail war weariness, culture whores for buildings, tech runners for monasteries...

You might want to check out some of the alternatives that Eusebius used in his religion mod, which is Warlords only.