BtS WAY to easy???

[Unconquered Sun]

How are knights a threat to rifles exactly?

 

[Jet]

@frob2900 and others talking about handicaps - for reference without the game, BTS: Changes to Difficulty and AI (Highlights)

 

[frob2900]

@frob2900 and others talking about handicaps - for reference without the game, BTS: Changes to Difficulty and AI (Highlights)

Thanks, Jet! Helpful info!

Unit Supply: Used to range from 10% (Deity) to 50% (Settler), now 50% at every difficulty level.
Unit Upgrades: Used to range from 5% (Deity) to 45% (Settler), now 50% at every difficulty.
Inflation: Used to range from 20% (Deity) to 100% (Settler), now 80% at every difficulty above Chieftain.

Ok, well that's a pretty large increase. 50% supply/upgrade costs with no corresponding decrease in production means large, expensive stacks.

I suppose a good course of action here would be for someone to Worldbuilder follow a bunch of AIs tech rate/unit gold expenses through a game to see if it really is the upgrade/supply bonus nerf + inflation increase that's causing problems.

I have a hunch it is.

 

[Snaaty]

@ frob2900 @ Jet:

Thanks for that info, I also think that this may be the problem, because I noticed in this game Alex and Wash stagnating only after engaging in their war... ...no research, lots of expensive troops, upgrading, spying... ...simply leads to self destruction in the end with all that production the AI can muster...

...

@ Quack:

Just to clarify:

The save I posted isn´t the point were I quit the game, simply the last save I had from pausing the game. I actually ended the game around 1100 AD, with my army mostly done. If I remembe right, I had about halft the power of Ash and Wash by then in the power chart, what basically means equal in army strenght... ...I´m not exactly sure, but I think they both hadn´t teched to guilds by then... ...and even if they had, I also don´t see too many problems taking out knight with rifles.

I´m too lazy to replay this turns, but I peeked into the worldbuilder and found out that Alex and Wash haven´t that much troops actually

...

Oh, something even funnier then Alex and Wash is the other continent... ...just worldbuilder a contact with them and your are surprised HOW backwards they are

 

[Yeosol]

I'm very undecided on this so far. I agree that in some cases it seems way to easy. The AI is teching much slower. By going 100% science you can outpace them very quickly. However I have found war to be a fair bit harder. Overall I would say the AI is teching slower at average difficultys, but not by much. However the reduction in bonuses means that the higher difficultys (of which you were playing on) are signifigantly easyer. With out thouse massive bonuses they just can't be as good as they used to be. My sugestion would be to add a few more difficultys that give the AI large bonuses for more hardcore players, players who are more focused on winning and less on empire building. If you aimed to build a balanced empire you wouldn't tech as fast....which is what the AI is doing.

 

[frob2900]

My sugestion would be to add a few more difficultys that give the AI large bonuses for more hardcore players, players who are more focused on winning and less on empire building. If you aimed to build a balanced empire you wouldn't tech as fast....which is what the AI is doing.

I don't see why more difficulty levels have to be added. Insteand just boost the AI bonuses back of Emperor/Immortal/Deity. The question is how much?

 

[Snaaty]

@ Froob2900:

Unit Supply: Used to range from 10% (Deity) to 50% (Settler), now 50% at every difficulty level.
Unit Upgrades: Used to range from 5% (Deity) to 45% (Settler), now 50% at every difficulty.
Inflation: Used to range from 20% (Deity) to 100% (Settler), now 80% at every difficulty above Chieftain.


These numbers should be adjusted again, maybe starting from emperor on. They shouldn´t be raised as high as they were, but somewhere in the middle maybe (the AI actually IS better then before, can be seen on patched warlords)

...

Just an idea:

Unit Supply: emperor 40%, immorta,l 30%, deity 20%
Unit Upgrades: emperor 40%, immorta,l 30%, deity 20%
Inflation: emperor 70%, immorta,l 60%, deity 50%

...

What do you think about that???

...

Maybe start another thread, that takes this discussion into the title (this one may be missleading...)

 

[frob2900]

@ Froob2900:
Just an idea:

Unit Supply: emperor 40%, immorta,l 30%, deity 20%
Unit Upgrades: emperor 40%, immorta,l 30%, deity 20%
Inflation: emperor 70%, immorta,l 60%, deity 50%
...
What do you think about that???
...
Maybe start another thread, that takes this discussion into the title (this one may be missleading...)

Those look like they are ok (I haven't played that much BtS so I can't be sure, but it looks right). Definitely they shouldn't be as low as in Warlords and the 10% from emperor onward looks like a good scale-down.

A new thread is probably a good idea. It would be good to get the opinion of several players who have experience with the game and the XML settings so they can estimate/gauge the approximate necessary changes.

This is definitely an important issue, judging from all the slow-tech horror stories that have been cropping up Strategy&Tips and the BtS forum.

 

[futurehermit]

I think rather than give the AI cheat-bonuses back, first Blake should just try to tinker with some things. First, address the espionage slider. Second, address unit production vs. unit cost balance (without adjusting cheat bonuses). Basically, if the AI is going to make a pile of units they should first USE them to conquer territory and second have some "plan" for how to avoid crashing the economy. Basic things would be prioritizing courthouses and forbidden palace, col and currency, and building sufficient commerce cities. Alternatively, if they're going to focus on farms and production (like Napoleon does, Shaka, and others) then that's fine and it's fine if they fall a BIT behind in tech but they should have a plan for not being completely backwards late-game. Running specialists may be hard for the AI, but I don't know maybe build commerce/research or transitioning to cottages after conquering some territory.

I don't know what the answer is, but I would like to see Blake continue to tinker without reintroducing cheat bonuses.

 

[frob2900]

I don't know what the answer is, but I would like to see Blake continue to tinker without reintroducing cheat bonuses.

While I agree fully with you that an AI behaviour fix is preferable to a bonus boost, I am guessing it is a very tall order (both w.r.t. to the possibility of a "perfect" behavioural fix as well as the time we'd have to wait before the patch arrives).

Bonus boosting is a quick and easy fix, although I do agree that such issues as self-destruction by over-espionage also must be addressed.

(...maybe make espionage cheaper for the AI? )

 

[Ruler]

Definitely unit-production is something to be adressed. I think I lost 5 times in row on Emperor I was only able to conquer some crappy border cities. I did everything I possible could my science slider were at 10% very near at "Units are on strike" I was saving money once my troops get across a border and falling behind in science hopelessly but still was able to conquer only some crappy border cities. I don't think how you're supposed to stop current AI unitspam with 3-4 cities at the beginning especially if there's protective/cities on hill against up like Toku was one in my case. Hopefully the fix is coming.

 

[frob2900]

Definitely unit-production is something to be adressed. I think I lost 5 times in row on Emperor I was only able to conquer some crappy border cities. I did everything I possible could my science slider were at 10% very near at "Units are on strike" I was saving money once my troops get across a border and falling behind in science hopelessly but still was able to conquer only some crappy border cities. I don't think how you're supposed to stop current AI unitspam with 3-4 cities at the beginning especially if there's protective/cities on hill against up like Toku was one in my case. Hopefully the fix is coming.

Well, too difficult isn't an issue imho (you can always drop a difficulty level), the problem imho is too easy because of non-entertaining issues, such as AI over-espionage.

Because I remembers Blakes Better AI in Warlords spamming units like theres no tomorrow but still keeping up in science. It was deadly difficult, challenging and fun.

 

[futurehermit]

While I agree fully with you that an AI behaviour fix is preferable to a bonus boost, I am guessing it is a very tall order (both w.r.t. to the possibility of a "perfect" behavioural fix as well as the time we'd have to wait before the patch arrives).

Bonus boosting is a quick and easy fix, although I do agree that such issues as self-destruction by over-espionage also must be addressed.

(...maybe make espionage cheaper for the AI? )

Fair enough, but how hard is it to get the AI to prioritize currency, col, and courthouses? Combine that with getting the AI to USE it troops to expand instead of sitting around serving as a drain on the economy and that would help a lot. The expansion wouldn't have to be by force if there is land left. The point is just to claim more territory and have currency/col/courthouses supporting that expansion.

I think that would be one fairly straightforward fix.

Commerce city specialization and unit production-economy growth balance might be trickier, but I would rather see effort put toward these ends than reintroducing cheat bonuses.

My concern is we will only get 1-2 patches and I would like to see Blake given a chance to develop the AI. Adding mods to make simpler changes is always an option if he is ultimately unsuccessful but modding in complicated changes that he is capable of is certain not as easy, unless he is the one providing the mod.

 

[FrancisMarion]

The only issue I see with improving the tech speed of the AI is that on Emperor at least (aggressive AI). It's extremely hard to "win" a war without a military tech lead or a UU.

And by that I mean it's certainly possible to defeat the AI, but the war is so costly in terms of diverting science to production and reduced happiness to war weariness etc that you fall vastly behind.

I dunno if more tech less unit spam would just make it another kind of too easy though.

 

[DrewBledsoe]

Its strange reading this, because I would have completely agreed with you. But then I just had a game only on Monarch (still generally testing) where Darius managed to get CS, Feud AND Machinery pre AD, without even the Oracle.

He also only had Gandhi and Me to trade with, and we were both MILES behind that, so it wasn't through tech trading either. So given optimum conditions (on this map Darius was completely unmolested, and must have felt no need to troop spam), the ai can still research at a ridiculous rate....

 

[Ruler]

Well, too difficult isn't an issue imho (you can always drop a difficulty level), the problem imho is too easy because of non-entertaining issues, such as AI over-espionage.

Because I remembers Blakes Better AI in Warlords spamming units like theres no tomorrow but still keeping up in science. It was deadly difficult, challenging and fun.

I wanted to stay that AI falls behind in tech because of too many units. What I said happens too often and it was only Emperor difficult level. It's not just right. You have hard luck, your first cities aren't that good and your first opponent is on the hill so you need cats. You have no choice than wait for cats, once you get them whip/chop cats like mad and make an attack but you can't get further than the first border cities or maybe it's just me who don't know how to play.

 

[Quornix]

At the higher difficulty levels, you need to have Aggressive AI on. They will tech even more slowly, but they will use those troops that they are building, which will kill some of them, and reduce their maintenance. Blake has already said that he would prefer "Aggressive AI" to be the default, with a "Peaceful AI" option for what is now the default.

By having to genuinely worry about the AI's attacks, you will also be forced to play a more balanced game. You will need more units, not only to fool the AI into not declaring war on you, but to survive the wars that they will declare anyway. I've been dogpiled when I had the tech lead and the highest power rating, as Tokugawa, and not only did I not advance, I wasn't able to survive, no matter how much I whipped.

Before, an isolated start was much more challenging. Now, an isolated start makes things much easier.

Feel free to change the XML files if you want, but play on Aggressive AI first, and see if that doesn't help.

 

[frob2900]

but you can't get further than the first border cities or maybe it's just me who don't know how to play.

Sorry, I didn't mean to imply that. What I meant was the huge AI stacks in Blakes Better AI are great fun as long as they don't cripple the AI tech rate.

 

[Unconquered Sun]

By having to genuinely worry about the AI's attacks, you will also be forced to play a more balanced game.

That's a part of a bigger problem. The AI doesn't approach the game as human players do. Often the AI forgoes windows of opportunity for attack, especially so on the highest levels. I've long stopped to count the games I, and others, have won on deity while guarding cities with warriors.

Espionage is exactly the same: the AI handles it in a way no human does. The AI invests steadily into it, however it does not use espionage much. As a matter a fact, not at all when relations are good. Right now I'm playing a game where my neighbor and buddy Hannibal has 10,000 points on me alone. That's the cost of a late game technology. How many times has he used espionage against me? Not once.

 

[Phrederick]

I've also found that BtS is too easy, on Emperor level for me. It feels easier than Warlords was. I think some sort of economic bonus would be great, such as what was suggested above. A patch fixing the AIs behavioural issues would be perfect, but until that happens I'm going to adjust the xml on my own I think.