Buce 02 - The Son's Of Ghengis Khan

I'm still not convinced on the peace with China. :p :)

Reasons:
- They have Iron. Russia doesn't.
- We've pillaged their tiles but they can be rebuilt soon if we sign peace
- We have a natural defense line against Russia using the mountain S of Ta-tu

I think we can hold our front against Russia with not too much trouble. If a bunch of AC and other units show up, then we could sign peace with Mao. In the mean-time, we could use the new Sword army to start taking some Chinese cities.

True, continued war with China means less immediate opportunity on the trade front. Also, that would mean the spear army still needs to flee. :blush:

If we do continue the war with China (and even if we don't) Ta-tu can whip out a few 2-turn spears to provide some future soak-up defense for ACs. Hopefully Ta-tu can slip in a settler or two as well...

The best scenario in my mind: maintain low-effort war with Russia and collect war happiness. Continue war with China and really put a hurt in them. I just hate to see us not fully thrash China when we have the chance. If the team, though, feels like we need to concentrate on Russia, then that's A-ok with me as well. :)

BTW, good catch on the southern cities. That slipped my notice... :wow:
 
My problem with continuing the war with China, is more to do with the current position of their units. The Sword that has just disembarked from the galley, only needs to enjoy good RNG, and we lose a city. Similar with the mini stack to the East; we have a few damaged Archers facing them - bad RNG would mean trouble. Our military is relatively weak, and facing two opponents - one of whom is fresh, and has AC's - is an unnecessary risk, IMO.


China will fall, as will Russia, once we have a bit of breathing space to crank out some Swords.
And if you think about it, how many Worker turns would it take to undo all the pillaging? A whole lot more than 20 turns, I'll wager.

Othniel, don't be offended if your arguments fail to sway us; I run my games by concensus if possible, a simple majority if not. Rest assured, every opinion given by any player, receives due consideration. :)

Edit: And for what it's worth, if we were 10 turns further on - with a few Swords - I'd agree with you.
 
Bucephalus said:
Othniel, don't be offended if your arguments fail to sway us; I run my games by concensus if possible, a simple majority if not. Rest assured, every opinion given by any player, receives due consideration. :)
Click to expand...

I'm not offended, and I appreciate the consideration given to all opinions. :)
 
One other thought:

IIRC, Chinese territory is punctuated by gaps of no-man's land; does anyone have any moral objection to keeping those gaps pillaged of roads?
 
Buy Writing from Persia for 15gpt+3 gold. They have Masonry, Mysticism, Philosophy, CoL, Lit, and Map Making. :(

We can get any two techs except for Map Making + CoL for straight peace. We can get everything except Mysticism and Lit for 8gpt+214 gold.

I'm inclined to take Phil, CoL, and Masonry in exchange for peace + 36 gold. Then we can gouge Republic out of Russia once they come begging for peace.

How does that sound?

As for keeping roads pillaged in the Chinese no-man's land, I'm all for it.
 
I'm all for exploiting the no man's land as long as it lasts as well. I don't think we'll be in a hurry to get Rep but we'll have lots of trade options once we make the contacts and our war with Cathy and future wars with China.

How much would it be to buy Masonry? If we could afford it, we might be able to get Maths, which would be of more immediate value than the others. When I checked, we could get Masonry and Writing for all our gold and 15gpt. I'm pretty sure we can afford Masonry from Persia.
 
When trading, be aware that our unit support is about to rise reasonably significantly, so I'd say keep some gpt back.

Obviously, your main task will be to repel Cathy's units, but we also need to keep expanding, particularly for the purpose of unit support, so if you can squeeze out a Settler or two.........

As far as techs are concerned, MM has lost much of it's immediate value to us since we clearly have access to the beta continent, and Literature has no value to us at all (unless it has trade value); ditto Republic, for the forseeable future at least - Monarchy is our immediate destiny, I think.

I agree with Phaedo as to the desirability of acquiring Maths.
 
Goals:

Long - Conquer the world
Medium - Cow our neighbors and meet the rest of our victims.
Short - Keep China and Russia at bay, meet Japan, the Ottomans, and the Koreans

Cities:

Karakorum (7) grows in 9, Horse in 2.
Ta-tu (7) grows in 8, Horse in 1.
Kazan (5) grows in 10, Horse in 4.
Almarikh (4) grows in 4, Curragh in 1.
Tabriz (2) grows in 4, Horse in 3.
Ulaanbaatar (2) grows in 7, Barracks in 1.
Darhan (1) grows in 4, Barracks in 4.
Oreo (1) grows in 8, Barracks in 18.


Military:

5 Workers
5 Warriors
3 Archers
8 Spearmen
6 Horsemen
2 Army
2 Curragh

0 support

Economy:

218 gold
+25 gpt
30% lux.

Diplomacy:

China (14 cities) - war (will offer Masonry, Writing, and Mysticism for peace)
Russia (19? cities) - war
Persia (23 cities) - peace.

Discussion and questions:

China is willing to make a fairly good peace offer (all the techs we're currently down). I'm tempted to buy Masonry or Writing from Persia, then take another look at what China will offer for peace. We should get Mathematics ASAP.

* Should I buy Masonry (8gpt+15 gold) or Writing (15gpt+3 gold) -- or both, we can afford it -- from Persia before I sign peace with China?
* Should I sign peace with China immediately, or should I strive to raze another of their towns before the ceasefire?
* Other than Math, what's our highest priority in terms of techs? I'd rate Mapmaking, then CoL, and then Philosophy as being most important at this point.

Preturn:

Buy Writing from Persia for 15gpt+3 gold. They have Masonry, Mysticism, Philosophy, CoL, Lit, and Map Making. :(

We can get any two techs except for Map Making + CoL for straight peace. We can get everything except Mysticism and Lit for 8gpt+214 gold. Since Russia is in a Republic, we can get Phil and/or CoL from them when they come begging for peace.

Buy Masonry from Persia for 160 gold.

Make peace with China in exchange for Math, Mysticism, and Philosophy. CoL or Map Making would have required us to spend gpt, and that's not worth it given our lack of trading options.

IT:

Five Russian soldiers move towards us: The Archer near Tyver, two ACavs (next to our sentry mountain), and a warrior near Darhan.
Ta-Tu: Horseman->Swordsman
Almarikh: Curragh->Swordsman
Ulaanbaatar: Rax->Horseman

Turn 1 (330 BC):

Change Korum, Tabriz, and Kazan to swords.
Move troops towards the Russian front.

IT:

Ta-Tu mountain:
Two aCavs attack. One dies, one retreats.
Korum: Sword->Sword

Turn 2 (310 BC):

Horse > Russian Archer
Horse kills Warrior and promotes!
Upgrade a Warrior to a Sword.
Order China out of our lands. They promise to leave.

IT:

China orders US out (our horseman-diplomat is inside their culture borders).
Tabriz: Sword->Horse

Turn 3 (290 BC):

With careful movement between last turn and now, the Sword army is up to full strength! Next stop, Tyver :D
Change all Sword builds back to Horses, except for K'korum.

IT:

K'Korum: Sword->Sword
Ta-Tu: Horse->Horse
Kazan: Horse->Horse

Turn 4 (270 BC):

eHorse kills an archer.
Russia will now entertain our envoy. Straight peace is "unlikely". The fools.

IT:

Tabriz riots :blush: I deal with the situation.

Turn 5 (250 BC):

Troop movements: A Sword into Tabriz to act as MP, plus a stack of six Horses, the Army, and a Spear into Russian territory. We attack next turn.

IT:

A Russian Archer kills our diplomat in the south :mad:

K'korum: Sword->Sword

Turn 6 (230 BC):

Near Tver:
Sword army > aCav
Horse > Archer
Battle of Tver:
Horse retreats, taking off one HP from the spear.
Horse retreats, taking off one HP from the second spear.
Horse kills spear!
Horse retreats, no damage to spear.
Horse kills spear, we raze Tver!
I note that China finally learned Currency. Everyone we know is in the MA already.
I also spot Persian borders across the ocean from China's eastern point. I'm going to attempt a crossing next turn.

IT:

Ta-Tu: Horse->Horse
Almarikh: Horse->Horse

Turn 7 (210 BC):

Regroup units for healing and start assembling a second stack of horses for an assault on Magadan.
Start the Chinese-Persian crossing.

IT:

K'korum: Sword->Horse
Persia completes Sun Tzu.
Our Curragh sinks :(

Turn 8 (190 BC):

Zzz...

IT:

Kazan: Horse->Horse
Tabriz: Horse->Horse
Russians start Leo's.

Turn 9 (170 BC):

Horse kills a stray Russian Archer.
Russia is willing to give us 25 gold in exchange for peace. They won't cough up any techs, however.

IT:

Lose a Horse to a Russian LONGBOW and a spear to an A-Cav. We force a second A-Cav to retreat.
K'Korum: Horse->Sword
Ta-Tu: Horse->Settler

Turn 10 (150 BC):

Horse kills redlined aCav.
Horses kill two Russian Warriors.

Handoff notes:

We need to put some horses on a run to the south to make contacts. I have a few Horses assembling to take out Russia's tundra city to our N; another horse or two - or sword and maybe a spear - should be added to the stack.

To the S, our army + 6-8 horsemen should be able to take another city or two before needing to stop to heal the horses. Have the army act as a defender, the Russian aCavs won't attack it.

The Settler building in Ta-Tu should settle next to the Spices to our NE - there's a sword and some workers in the area to provide defense and hook up the Spices once the new city is settled.

Spoiler :
rage_endturn.JPG


Spoiler :
rage_russian_front.JPG
 
Looks like a solid set Tusker. :)

Just a thought on gov't. We did talk about Rep but that was also when we were assuming to be in a more crowded world. I've never used it but Feudalism might be a thought. Of course, Monarchy is the safe bet. We could use specialist factories to overcome cash issues and the upkeep would be nice. I also think we could swing Rep if we wanted to. It would be a bit of a risk though. It would mean that our war tactics would have to be flawless. WW could really hurt us, especially if we get stuck with a limited number of possible opponents.

I haven't really looked at the gov'ts for a while so these are merely thoughts rather than a set opinion.
 
Phaedo said:
Looks like a solid set Tusker. :)

Just a thought on gov't. We did talk about Rep but that was also when we were assuming to be in a more crowded world. I've never used it but Feudalism might be a thought. Of course, Monarchy is the safe bet. We could use specialist factories to overcome cash issues and the upkeep would be nice. I also think we could swing Rep if we wanted to. It would be a bit of a risk though. It would mean that our war tactics would have to be flawless. WW could really hurt us, especially if we get stuck with a limited number of possible opponents.

I haven't really looked at the gov'ts for a while so these are merely thoughts rather than a set opinion.
Click to expand...

lurker's comment: Feudalism probably wouldn't be good. Though this isn't AW, a protracted war against one civ could still max out WW, and the economy would suffer far worse in feudalism than it would in republic. Republic might be manageable if you just switch enemies every 20 turns.
 
Yep, things are looking good, we are definitely in the ascendancy; so much so that I think that we can start to divert some of the new builds toward the Chinese front (maybe two out of three), ready for another push at Mao once the treaty is ended. Incidently, I think the Horse builds should be switched to Swords.

We've absorbed the Russian 'rush', so we can continue to whittle away at their units and satellite cities until they will pay tech, if it suits our purpose. I was surprised to hear Cathy cry 'Uncle' so early, but it's a good sign.

Regarding govt, although it's true that this isn't AW, neither is it strictly OW; it's Mongol war. Our stated aim is to conquer our neighbours, to take their land, their wealth, and their women. As we grow in strength, we will likely be fighting on two fronts simultaneously; that will require more units than a Republican govt can reasonably expect to afford. Besides the WW means it's not a Mongol sort of govt - they never wearied of war, they revelled in it. And Monarchy can work well on a continent this size, with a nice tight productive core pushing out the military, and a zillion tax farms funding our trading for tech.

@ Tusker: What was your thinking when you tried the suicide run to Persia? Didn't we already know them?

@Norton: Good to see you, mate, but you don't need to use lurker tags. :)
 
I was thinking that Persia is certainly on the same continent as the civs in the south, and one turn in the ocean near China's land would get us to those other civs faster than circling around to China's south.

In hindsight, I'd have been better off sending that first curragh south in safe waters and using the current pair for the suicide run.
 
I'm no going to get a chance to have a close look unil tomorrow. I'll then post a pre-flight. That should give some ime for input.
 
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